NHS

[SydneyRover]

Yes partly correct but why then are the tories running down NHS services and starving it of funds at this very moment when we know because they just told us recently that there is plenty of money to build how many new hospitals.?

[albie]

BFYP,

Perhaps the plan is make sure it does not look like the US system.

I agree it would be very risky for Johnson to do this up front.
The strategy is do it piecemeal, and in the background.

I think you are underestimating the extent to which it is already underway.
This is a criticism of New Labour as well as the coalition/Tories.

There are many links to sources in this piece;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/ournhsanother-key-johnson-claim-nhs-demolished/

The NHS estate is also a key resource, and the future use of PFI has a large potential impact;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/johnsons-hospital-building-seed-money-and-how-pfi-never-went-away/

Much of this is not in the public mind, as it is complex and needs some understanding of financial systems.
Still real though!

I am interested in what you see the "huge benefits" of outsourcing have been.

[SydneyRover]

''Tory NHS shake-up blamed for fall in child vaccination rates

National Audit Office says campaigning by ‘anti-vaxxers’ has only had limited impact



One significant factor identified by auditors was the Conservative former health secretary Andrew Lansley’s 2013 reorganisation of the NHS, auditors said.

“There is evidence that the 2013 health system reorganisation in England resulted in fragmentation in the way the vaccination programme has been delivered,” the report concludes.

Auditors said that responsibility for vaccinations before 2013 was mixed between primary care trusts and service providers, who manage children’s clinical care records. This was then passed on to NHS England after the reorganisation, the report said.''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/oct/25/tory-nhs-shake-up-blamed-for-fall-in-child-vaccination-rates

[SydneyRover]

Polly Toynbee ..... keepin' it real .... ''These brutal cuts to the NHS will haunt the Conservatives'' ......

 ....... and yet more ............ ''Start with the shocking privatisation in 2013 of the NHS blood plasma supplier, on which thousands of patients depend. To protect the quality of the blood product, David Owen, as health secretary in 1975, took blood plasma collection into public ownership as Plasma Resources UK. But Jeremy Hunt, as health secretary, sold that off for £200m to a US private equity firm, Bain Capital, while Britain kept a 20% stake. Co-founded by Mitt Romney in 1984, Bain has over the years acquired such well known health products as Burger King, Dunkin Donuts, Dominos Pizza and much else. Protesters, David Owen among them, warned that the company had a predatory reputation for asset stripping, but Bain promised it would develop the company into a “life sciences champion” in Hertfordshire. Instead, it sold it on to a Chinese company in 2016 for £820m. Was there any protest from our government, losing its last remnant of control? Not a word. Instead, an irony, the US government is expressing concern at China taking over a vital US-owned health asset''

Apologies if this painful reading for the tory faithful 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/boris-johnson-conservatives-nhs-funding

[Donnywolf]

It wont be painful reading - people are so entrenched nowadays the vast majority (not all) wont believe anything contrary to their viewpoint

Equally applies to Labour v Tory Remain v Leave

I think lots of people have now totally switched off from politicking now anyway

[albie]

Folk might be interested in watching "Dispatches" on Ch4, Monday @8pm.

This episode will look at the NHS debate, including the themes discussed on here.
Lets talk again after you have seen the program.

[SydneyRover]

And this

''Revealed: how the UK’s powerful right-wing think tanks and Conservative MPs work together''

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-how-uk-s-powerful-right-wing-think-tanks-and-conse/

[Bentley Bullet]

No its not!

[bpoolrover]

Sydney if someone shared that about labour you would have none of it mate even I can share shite like that🤣

[bpoolrover]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/how-labour-broke-nhs-and-why-labour-must-fix-it Not all tories fault eh!

[SydneyRover]

Sydney if someone shared that about labour you would have none of it mate even I can share shite like that🤣

Who's a clever boy then, has anyone said you can't, this is a forum and your input is wanted so subjects can be debated such as the biggest subject since ww2 that brexit is a croc, most of us have been waiting for 3 years for you and others to post something good about it.

[SydneyRover]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/how-labour-broke-nhs-and-why-labour-must-fix-it Not all tories fault eh!

I hope you read your own link? at 4.5 years it's a bit out of date and labour has moved on, see Albies link above. (Apparently it's not privatisation it's outsourcing  )

this article was written last year following 9 years of tories.

''NHS operation waiting lists reach 10-year high at 4.3m patients
NHS ability to meet targets will define Matt Hancock’s time as health secretary, say unions''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jul/13/nhs-operation-waiting-lists-reach-10-year-high-at-43m-patients

[bpoolrover]

I no it’s a old one but it still stands and new you would rubbish it, it might well be crap but as you are putting link after link up from any website that fits your agenda I thought I would join the party

[albie]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/how-labour-broke-nhs-and-why-labour-must-fix-it Not all tories fault eh!

Thanks for posting this, Blackpool.

It is a very good summary of how we got to where we are, and the part Labour played in this.
The question now is what to do about it?

Trump is looking to open the UK to US corporations as the price for a trade deal after brexit.
So are you saying that making the NHS more accessible to outside contractors is a good thing, or would you rather we took control to sort it out ourselves?

We are at a fork in the road for public services, and the choice we make will impact future options.
Maybe "Dispatches" on Monday will spell it out!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

It doesn't work like that. You don't just trawl for whatever headline suits your purpose and say "There's no suhc thing as objective truth: you can find whatever you want to support you."

Have you actually read that article that you posted?

If you're serious about assessing evidence, you have to go way beyond the headlines (which, in this case, is deliberately provocative, and was written at a time that there was a major battle going on between the right and left of the Labour party). You have to look at what the facts are that arguments are based on. That's hard, I know. It requires time and patience and effort. But if you don't go beyond the headlines, you will always (and I mean ALWAYS) be taken for a ride.

That article clearly sets out, right at the start, the fact that the NHS was woefully underfunded by the time Labour came to power in 1997. That was afer two decades of the Tories reducing the proporation of national wealth that went into the NHS, while the rest of the world were strongly increasing their spending on health.

The article sets out the fact that Labour increased the percentage of GDP that went into the NHS by 50% over the next decade. The criticism it makes is that Labour, under Blair, made changes to the NHS that allowed more involvement by the private sector. And, crucially, that this change made it easier (politically) for the Tories to do this on steroids. he says:
"The coalition government seized on the inroads made by New Labour. As well as cementing competition for work on a case-by- case basis under AQP, Section 75 of their Health and Social Care Act 2012 makes it obligatory for commissioners to put every new NHS service (above a trivial size) out to tender. Analysis of data up to 2013 shows more than £12bn of NHS contracts were awarded to private companies during the first three years of the coalition."

THAT is what he's complaining about. That Blair, almost certainly inadvertently, gave an opportunity for the Tories to turbocharge the use of private services in the NHS.

By the way, it's also worth noting that, since coming to power in 2010, the Tories have once again reduced the percentage of GDP that goes into the NHS. When the rest of the developed world is still increasing theirs, and the demands of health care for an aging population are getting more onerous by the year.

This isn't about winning points by saying "but YOUR side are as bad". It's about taking on the responsibility as an adult to think for yourself. 

[bpoolrover]

That’s my point bst Sydney is trawling through every paper every website to find something that suits his agenda, as I said what I posted might be a load of shite but the headline reads what it does, I just can’t see the point in him posting 30 links a day from left leaning media

[SydneyRover]

Don't read em bp it's a forum, I post from reliable sources as far as I'm able and try to stay on topic, any time you feel like it you can put posts up from credible sources about the benefits of a far right wing government and brexit, knock yourself out.

[albie]

Just a heads up for Dispatches tonight, CH4, 8pm;
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-drugs-cost-brexit-trade-deal-usa-820816

Light the blue touchpaper and retreat to a safe distance.

[wilts rover]

Just a heads up for Dispatches tonight, CH4, 8pm;
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-drugs-cost-brexit-trade-deal-usa-820816

Light the blue touchpaper and retreat to a safe distance.

And more on the subject here:

essentially the Tory's are in secret negotiations with US pharmaceutical companies to give them priveleged access to NHS medicines - forcing the UK taxpayer to pay more for these medicines and most likely raising the cost of prescriptions
https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945

[SydneyRover]

But we'll need those drugs more than ever when their chicken goes on sale. 

[DonnyOsmond]

Just a heads up for Dispatches tonight, CH4, 8pm;
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-drugs-cost-brexit-trade-deal-usa-820816

Light the blue touchpaper and retreat to a safe distance.

And more on the subject here:

essentially the Tory's are in secret negotiations with US pharmaceutical companies to give them priveleged access to NHS medicines - forcing the UK taxpayer to pay more for these medicines and most likely raising the cost of prescriptions
https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945

[Bentley Bullet]We might not be able to afford healthcare but at least we will have our democracy[/]

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

''Tory NHS shake-up blamed for fall in child vaccination rates

National Audit Office says campaigning by ‘anti-vaxxers’ has only had limited impact



One significant factor identified by auditors was the Conservative former health secretary Andrew Lansley’s 2013 reorganisation of the NHS, auditors said.

“There is evidence that the 2013 health system reorganisation in England resulted in fragmentation in the way the vaccination programme has been delivered,” the report concludes.

Auditors said that responsibility for vaccinations before 2013 was mixed between primary care trusts and service providers, who manage children’s clinical care records. This was then passed on to NHS England after the reorganisation, the report said.''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/oct/25/tory-nhs-shake-up-blamed-for-fall-in-child-vaccination-rates

I missed this post. Shouldn't parents be responsible for their children.  I have two children under two years old and it is very clear what is required when, I fail to see how it can be an issue? Or maybe doncaster and bassetlaw are better than others?

[SydneyRover]

And yet there it is in black and white bfyp

[bpoolrover]

According to quite a few on here trump will get impeached so trump won’t have much say by the time any trade deal is going to happen

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

And yet there it is in black and white bfyp

Indeed, it says clearly there is an inconsistency between areas. However I find it bizarre that parents cant take responsibility for their own children.  Should it need the state to remind parents of a fundamental part of child healthcare?

[SydneyRover]

I suppose if we want to ensure there are few if no epidemics or harm to children then the state should be involved to ensure nutjobs and antivaxers don't avoid their responsibilities. I can't see a problem.

[SydneyRover]

According to quite a few on here trump will get impeached so trump won’t have much say by the time any trade deal is going to happen

if we brexit then the tories will be desperate to do trade deals with whomever is in power in the US and other countries, no?

[bpoolrover]

Yes of course

[SydneyRover]

So a trade deal that compromises the NHS is very much alive unless there are safeguards or no-brexit, yes?

[bpoolrover]

What safe guards will labour put in to stop everything? Should There be safeguards against corbyns foreign policy? Yes there are risks but there is in everything in life if tories mess with the nhs to much they will soon get voted out