General Election 2019 - 12th December

[SydneyRover]

perverse
/pəˈvəːs/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: perverse

    1.
    showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable.
    "Kate's perverse decision not to cooperate held good"

Is that your psychiatric report?

I'm thinking you just owned it 

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.

Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear.

Labour fundamentally disagree with the interpretation that the Right has put on the Brexit vote. We've ended up looking at a deal that is a far bigger separation from the EU than anything that was discussed in 2016.

So, if elected, Labour would renegotiate a much closer relationship with the EU, cementing employment and environmental standards, and minimising the trade barriers between us and the EU.

And they would out that, specific Brexit back to the people, asking them if that is what they want, or if they would prefer to keep the status quo.

It's that simple.

Now, you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. But if you're suggesting that Labour doesn't have a policy, or it's too complex to understand, or it changes every day, then you're not really paying attention, and you haven't earned respect.

Because, there's a thing. Respect needs to be earned by behaviour.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.

Yep. It's all getting a bit f**king infantile isn't it?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I'm narrowing down my options.  Issues with a number of labour policies and the leadership.  Issues with the tory leadership and some policies.  Like Farage for entertainment value but politically cannot stand him.  The lib dems are ridiculously too far remain.  Green party for too left wing.

Clear as mud eh?

I'll probably study the manifestos some more before deciding.

[SydneyRover]

With respect bfyp it sounds like your going to ignore the last nine year of chaos and make your choices on what is being said now rather than what was said and done previously?

[Bentley Bullet]

BB.

Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear.

Labour fundamentally disagree with the interpretation that the Right has put on the Brexit vote. We've ended up looking at a deal that is a far bigger separation from the EU than anything that was discussed in 2016.

So, if elected, Labour would renegotiate a much closer relationship with the EU, cementing employment and environmental standards, and minimising the trade barriers between us and the EU.

And they would out that, specific Brexit back to the people, asking them if that is what they want, or if they would prefer to keep the status quo.

It's that simple.

Now, you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. But if you're suggesting that Labour doesn't have a policy, or it's too complex to understand, or it changes every day, then you're not really paying attention, and you haven't earned respect.

Because, there's a thing. Respect needs to be earned by behaviour.

Yes, but I thought the EU said there was nothing more on the table? And what exactly will Labour's aim be, to leave or to stay?

You see, that's my point. respect for a political party needs to be earned, and they get that by being clear to the electorate what they are actually voting for.

[wilts rover]

Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.

We have done. Frequently. You've ignored it. Yet you always respond when there's the whiff of a criticism in the air.

So you've frequently told us about your great party, despite also frequently pouring scorn on your leader, and then you accuse ME of responding with a whiff of criticism!

You have castigated Jeremy Corbyn more than I have, and now you want me to vote for him!

Vote for Corbyn and p**s of BST - how can you refuse!!! Get it on the side of a bus immediately...

[SydneyRover]

And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.

[drfchound]

Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.

We have done. Frequently. You've ignored it. Yet you always respond when there's the whiff of a criticism in the air.

So you've frequently told us about your great party, despite also frequently pouring scorn on your leader, and then you accuse ME of responding with a whiff of criticism!

You have castigated Jeremy Corbyn more than I have, and now you want me to vote for him!

Don't expect you to do anything but you vote for a party and the parties policies not an individual...

But ultimately, if someone votes Labour and Labour win then you are voting to put Corbyn into number ten.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.

1) The EU would fall over themselves to renegotiate the deal that Labour wants. Because it would be far less economically damaging to both the UK and EU than Johnson's deal. And it would make the Irish border question vanish. You can ignore any pronouncements in the topic by Juncker. He's gone now.

2) Why does Labour need to have a policy on whether we would Leave or Remain?

Did the Tories have a policy that everyone signed up to in 2016? Johnson himself had two scripts written, so ambivalent was he.

It's about being grown up.

Grown ups can differ on final decisions. There are those in Labour who would campaign for the deal Corbyn wants. There are those who would campaign against it.

Just like there were Tories elected in 2017 who supported the deal that May negotiated and those who didn't. (Or, in Johnson's case, those who supported it, then didn't support it, then did support it, then said it was an utter betrayal,then negotiated a deal that was 95% identical to it.)

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

Aye, and if you vote Tory, you are putting a man who has a 30 year track record of self-interested lying into No10.

Like I say, it's an imperfect choice. But life's like that. You're not often given the choice between a lump of dog shit and a gold bar, are you?

[wilts rover]

By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?

Labour's Brexit policy explained in 30 seconds.

(Spoiler alert - it only takes 12 and is Have a referendum in June 2020 with a viable Leave deal against Remain and whichever wins will be implemented)

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1192452423111118848

[drfchound]

Hound.

Aye, and if you vote Tory, you are putting a man who has a 30 year track record of self-interested lying into No10.

Like I say, it's an imperfect choice. But life's like that. You're not often given the choice between a lump of dog shit and a gold bar, are you?

I suppose not BST but I might not be making my choice between those two yet.

I was just making a point to rtid88.

It is reality that only one of Johnson or Corbyn will be PM on 13th December.

[drfchound]

By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?

Labour's Brexit policy explained in 30 seconds.

(Spoiler alert - it only takes 12 and is Have a referendum in June 2020 with a viable Leave deal against Remain and whichever wins will be implemented)

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1192452423111118848

Well, you say that Wilts but I think that the Brexiteers might kick off a bit if the outcome was a Remain victory.

[Bentley Bullet]

And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.

With respect Sydney, it's hardly a fair debate when you can constantly put up links from any outlet, sometimes including right wing

And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.

Yes, but you let the lefty press do your talking by issuing constant lefty orientated links. When the right does the same you dismiss it as not credible because it's a right-wing outlet!
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

But why would they Hound?

That would be a decision between a specific, defined Brexit and Remain. Decided by the British people.

The reason we are where we are now is precisely because Brexit WASN'T defined in 2016. And the last three years have been a fight on the Tory side to define it in a the way that they want.

Stand back and tell me that's not true.

And then ask yourself if Labour's policy is less democratic.

[drfchound]

But why would they Hound?

That would be a decision between a specific, defined Brexit and Remain. Decided by the British people.

The reason we are where we are now is precisely because Brexit WASN'T defined in 2016. And the last three years have been a fight on the Tory side to define it in a the way that they want.

Stand back and tell me that's not true.

And then ask yourself if Labour's policy is less democratic.

I am not saying that the Labour policy on this is wrong BST.
In fact, I like it.

However, after three years of reading comments by Brexiteers whingeing about Remainers wanting a second Referendum I think it is fair to suggest what they would say if another vote came out with a remain win.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

The Mail and Sun and Express have a long and established and inglorious record of lying to their readers.

That's not up for debate. It's a fact.

That is why I for one will treat any article from them that purports to set out facts with scorn.

I've told you previously about my own run in with the Mail, on something utterly inconsequential, where they deliberately and systemically misled their readers by choosing to omit key facts in a story. That's their approach. They are not newspapers. They are propaganda sheets.

There is no such track record with the Guardian. Or the Times for that matter.

[wilts rover]

By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?

Labour's Brexit policy explained in 30 seconds.

(Spoiler alert - it only takes 12 and is Have a referendum in June 2020 with a viable Leave deal against Remain and whichever wins will be implemented)

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1192452423111118848

Well, you say that Wilts but I think that the Brexiteers might kick off a bit if the outcome was a Remain victory.

They were going to kick off if we didn't leave the EU on 31st March and 31st October. Yesterday they said Johnson's deal was a sell out and wouldn't put up with it if it because it wasn't Brexit - today it is. Seems like Brexiteers are more open to changing their minds than you give them credit for.

And I wouldn't bet against them winning for a 2nd time, the last poll I saw it was 50/50.

But that's Labour's policy, seems perfectly understandable to me don't you think?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound
Then I'd respectfully suggest they stop and think carefully about how and why we got into this position, and how we resolve it with the least damage, rather than see non-existent threats round every corner.

If there is a majority in the country for Leave, Labour's policy would give that majority it's chance to vote for a specific, defined Leave. In fact, Labour's leader would be on their side! Even if he might not admit it.

[drfchound]

By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?

Labour's Brexit policy explained in 30 seconds.

(Spoiler alert - it only takes 12 and is Have a referendum in June 2020 with a viable Leave deal against Remain and whichever wins will be implemented)

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1192452423111118848

Well, you say that Wilts but I think that the Brexiteers might kick off a bit if the outcome was a Remain victory.

They were going to kick off if we didn't leave the EU on 31st March and 31st October. Yesterday they said Johnson's deal was a sell out and wouldn't put up with it if it because it wasn't Brexit - today it is. Seems like Brexiteers are more open to changing their minds than you give them credit for.

And I wouldn't bet against them winning for a 2nd time, the last poll I saw it was 50/50.

But that's Labour's policy, seems perfectly understandable to me don't you think?

Wilts, see my reply to BST mate.
Just the way I see it.


Oh and we haven’t had that second referendum yet so as it stands, we are still due to leave, it is just when will it happen.

[DonnyOsmond]

BB.

Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear.

Labour fundamentally disagree with the interpretation that the Right has put on the Brexit vote. We've ended up looking at a deal that is a far bigger separation from the EU than anything that was discussed in 2016.

So, if elected, Labour would renegotiate a much closer relationship with the EU, cementing employment and environmental standards, and minimising the trade barriers between us and the EU.

And they would out that, specific Brexit back to the people, asking them if that is what they want, or if they would prefer to keep the status quo.

It's that simple.

Now, you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. But if you're suggesting that Labour doesn't have a policy, or it's too complex to understand, or it changes every day, then you're not really paying attention, and you haven't earned respect.

Because, there's a thing. Respect needs to be earned by behaviour.

Yes, but I thought the EU said there was nothing more on the table? And what exactly will Labour's aim be, to leave or to stay?

You see, that's my point. respect for a political party needs to be earned, and they get that by being clear to the electorate what they are actually voting for.

Labour have been speaking to the EU over these last 3 years and would be open to a closer deal. Labours aim will depend on the deal. Corbyn will abstain and others in the party will decide on their own personal choices but overall it's the people's choice.

[DonnyOsmond]

But why would they Hound?

That would be a decision between a specific, defined Brexit and Remain. Decided by the British people.

The reason we are where we are now is precisely because Brexit WASN'T defined in 2016. And the last three years have been a fight on the Tory side to define it in a the way that they want.

Stand back and tell me that's not true.

And then ask yourself if Labour's policy is less democratic.

I am not saying that the Labour policy on this is wrong BST.
In fact, I like it.

However, after three years of reading comments by Brexiteers whingeing about Remainers wanting a second Referendum I think it is fair to suggest what they would say if another vote came out with a remain win.

For me it's not having a second referendum with just the same options but something which actually defines "the will of the people". We've had a hung parliament and look like we might have another one which will mean more of the last 3 years. I'm sick of hearing different people saying what it is what the people wanted when the people could decide for themselves.

[selby]

  Labour might not be that significant after this election.

[SydneyRover]

And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.

With respect Sydney, it's hardly a fair debate when you can constantly put up links from any outlet, sometimes including right wing

And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.

Yes, but you let the lefty press do your talking by issuing constant lefty orientated links. When the right does the same you dismiss it as not credible because it's a right-wing outlet!

I put the links up because they explain the situation better than I can, I expect to be ripped up if I put links up that are not true and when I get it wrong I try an get an apology up as soon as poss' for any reason.

If you see it as an unfair/unbalanced debate it's because it more or less reflects the truth of the situation, you cannot possibly deny that all this shit started from the right side of politics and the vote was a lame attempt by your own side to resolve internal conflict. Your party has been in turmoil ever since and it's third leader in three years is a shocker.

There is nothing at all stopping you/others posting articles from the media, unfortunately the largest share of the msm is from the right but spends most of it's time devoted to labour and the left and is fairly inaccurate. Show us a link that you have posted that is not just opinion but facts/truth that I or others have dismissed, if however it has been refuted and found to be inaccurate then you have to suck it up and maybe even a p o l o g i s e.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Interesting possible movement in the polls. Look on the very far right hand side of this graph which averages the last 15 polls.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Uk2022polling15average.png/800px-Uk2022polling15average.png

We know the Tories have been mopping up BP support since Johnson took over.

Labour had been flatlining since losing a huge chunk of support to the Greens and LDs in the first half of the year. But finally, Labour's support has started climbing, with the Greens and LDs falling.

Massive gap to make up, but if that move starts to develop momentum, more and more folk will see that, if you really don't want Johnson, there really is only one alternative.

I'd be delighted to eat humble pie on this.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Firstly on the labour Brexit policy would there be a neither option?

Secondly sydney have the last nine years been better or worse than the 9 r so before?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I actually think BST it will.narrow. Not necessarily because of labour but people will see through the lib dems and Swinson.

[SydneyRover]

Firstly on the labour Brexit policy would there be a neither option?

Secondly sydney have the last nine years been better or worse than the 9 r so before?

If you count the gfc which appears to be labor's fault and they were at fault for trying to fix it, but how far are we going back here bfyp?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think you're probably right BFYP. It would certainly be deeply dispiriting if well-meaning left-leaning folk fell for the idea that Swinson is on their side, like they did with Clegg a decade back.

Plus, old tribal loyalties do still pull hard when the decision day looms. There's no question that's what happened at the last election. Labour pulled back a lot of support that had drifted off over the previous few years.