General Election 2019 - 12th December

[Bentley Bullet]

https://youtu.be/M7_zfivvmwU

[SydneyRover]

You only have to read the the Sun to know that Filo, it's the 'paper' for those without an opinion

[bpoolrover]

I actually said bow down to the unions, certainly there is a need for unions but unfortunately some of the time they end up just wanting to much power

[SydneyRover]

Not like the tory's bp, don't you know which side to put the butter on yet?

[Bentley Bullet]

You only have to read the the Sun to know that Filo, it's the 'paper' for those without an opinion

Is that why you read it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST, you know full well those stats do not work, plenty of leave voters wont vote tory and plenty of remainers will. It's a flawed statistic.

D'oh!

I was answering Selby's spellbindingly stupid comment.

[drfchound]

If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage

Whatever you think of them bp they've got to be better than the past 9 years

Not necessarily true though SR.

Only one way to find out. The easy thing isn't putting ourselves through another 5 years of the last 9 years.

That is a much more reasoned and better response to my post than a dancing emoji.

[SydneyRover]

"Not necessarily true though SR''

I'm guessing there's only about two others that would have given that answer

[bpoolrover]

So the ifs have released there report, both parties are talking shite,does this surprise anyone?

[BillyStubbsTears]

There is a major problem with the IFS's assessment of the Labour proposals.

The IFS does not perform macroeconomic analyses.

In simple terms, it assumes the Govt spending will have zero effect on growing the economy. It ignores what macroeconomists call the multiplier effect. That is where, when Govt puts money into the economy, it produces ripples which encourage more and more economic activity. It is a very well established economic mechanism.

So the IFS is ignoring what most macroeconomists would build into their models - that Labour's spending plans will produce a virtuous circle of more economic activity and therefore more tax take.

You can read a world renown professor of macroeconomics from Oxford Uni explaining the problem  here.

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2019/11/in-defence-of-ifs-and-why-it-cannot.html?m=1

[bpoolrover]

Thanks for link bst makes interesting reading for sure, I suppose the outcome would depend which people were right of course

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

The professor who wrote that article has been screaming for years about the damage done to the economy through Austerity.

Back in 2010 he was predicting that we'd have the worst decade of economic performance since the 1930s if we implemented Austerity.

He's since admitted he was wrong. It's actually been the worst since the 1880s.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fascinating.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1199121778058113026

This is old but it's also bang up to date.

Russia of course is now run by an ex-KGB Colonel.

And Johnson will not let you see the security services report into the ways that Russia subverted the 2017 election and the 2016 Referendum.

He says we should trust him...there's no issue.

[drfchound]

"Not necessarily true though SR''

I'm guessing there's only about two others that would have given that answer

But SR, not necessarily true is a proper response to your statement “whatever you think of them (Labour) it has got to be better than the last 9 years”.

Your statement is a matter of opinion and in truth, things might not be better than the last nine years if Labour were to gain power.
There is no way of knowing for sure that things could be better (for who by the way).

Maybe we can revisit this in 2028 to see who is right.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

I discussed this "let's see in ten years"  thing with Tory supporters in 2010, when I was predicting that Austerity would lead to a catastrophic collapse in economic growth and productivity.

Do you accept that this is exactly what happened?


Here's GDP. I can't find a single graph that shows data right up to date, and the long term historical trend, to show just how bad the 2010s have been, so it comes in 2 graphs. This one is long-term up to 2014.


That shows the catastrophic failure to recover from recession this time as we had done from every previous recession in living memory. EXACTLY what the critics of Austerity said the result of Austerity would be.

This one shows a bit more recent data - it's not getting any better.



And productivity. THE biggest problem for all our futures.



Do you accept that the critics of Austerity were right in 2010? And those who said Austerity would lead to the economy strengthening were hopelessly and dangerously wrong? Because this is about as clear as it ever gets. And if you don't agree with that, there's no point in saying you'll look at something in another 10 years time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS.

That middle graph should shame anyone and everyone who's ever been an apologist for Austerity. It shows that, by 2017-18, our economy was 20% smaller than it would have been if we'd got back onto the trend of growth that we had from the War to 2010.

That means we are producing £450-500BILLION less ever year than we should be doing. That's £7-7,500 less for every man woman and child in the country.

And that is EVERY YEAR! And unless we get the economy roaring again, instead of limping along as it is planned to do well into the 2020s under the Tory plans (growth over the next 5 years is projected to be 1-1.5% per annum, compared to the long term trend of 2.3%) then we are going to keep on pissing the future away.

This is boneheadedly stupid economics. By not properly investing in the country, we are actively choosing to make ourselves poorer for decades to come. And the people who vote for those policies nods wisely and tell themselves they are being very sensible and mature.

[drfchound]

BST, I know how you like to produce figures and graphs and TBH it is hard to argue with them as I don’t know where to look for alternative information.
You will probably tell me that I should take the time out to do that but I am not really bothered enough to do so.
However, when someone does post information that is contrary to what you want us to believe you are quick to dismiss them and the links or information that is put forward.
Likewise, when people on the news suggest something that doesn’t fit the mantra that you support you tell us why they are wrong.

Today on the news I just missed most of  a piece in which some financial research people had suggested that both the Tory and Labour manifestos are flawed and undeliverable.
(I may have got the wording wrong, apologies if I did, but you will probably have seen it anyway)
I guess that you will tell us why the Labour one is ok and the experts are wrong.

[selby]

Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as  has  caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
  The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
 And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
   

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, I know how you like to produce figures and graphs and TBH it is hard to argue with them as I don’t know where to look for alternative information.
You will probably tell me that I should take the time out to do that but I am not really bothered enough to do so.
However, when someone does post information that is contrary to what you want us to believe you are quick to dismiss them and the links or information that is put forward.
Likewise, when people on the news suggest something that doesn’t fit the mantra that you support you tell us why they are wrong.

Today on the news I just missed most of  a piece in which some financial research people had suggested that both the Tory and Labour manifestos are flawed and undeliverable.
(I may have got the wording wrong, apologies if I did, but you will probably have seen it anyway)
I guess that you will tell us why the Labour one is ok and the experts are wrong.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585818

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

You can look all you want for alternative information about the effect of Austerity. It doesn't exist.

What I posted is confirmed fact about what our economy has done over the past decade.

That was predicted, 10 years ago by precisely the same economists who have this week criticised the IFS's analysis of Labour's tax and spend plans.

After a while, you have to face up to whether you're serious about addressing facts and predictions from people with a track record of getting them right. Or whether you prefer to just ignore them.

So I'll ask again. Looking at those graphs, which are confirmed, unarguable facts, do you accept that we have had an appalling decade of economic performance? That that that was predictable AND predicted as a consequence of Tory economic policy?

[DonnyOsmond]

Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as  has  caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
  The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
 And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
   

Eh? Most polls the last few days have shown that Tories have the lead but Labour have made gains in pretty much all of them.

Take a look at Britain Elects (@britainelects): https://twitter.com/britainelects?s=09

[Herbert Anchovy]

Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as  has  caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
  The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
 And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
   

“I don’t care that The Tories have hammered the NHS, Crime is rising, child poverty is increasing, school funding is reducing, there’s a disaster within social care... Boris says he’s going to ‘get Brexit done’ (whatever that means) and give Johnny Foreigner a good thrashing!!” You’ve got our vote Boris!!

That pretty much seems to sum up the mind set of many Tory voters

[Metalmicky]

To be fair, I'm guessing if you put most of Europe's financial graphs (GDP) up, most would show a significant downturn over the last 10 years...

[Sprotyrover]

Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as  has  caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
  The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
 And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
   

“I don’t care that The Tories have hammered the NHS, Crime is rising, child poverty is increasing, school funding is reducing, there’s a disaster within social care... Boris says he’s going to ‘get Brexit done’ (whatever that means) and give Johnny Foreigner a good thrashing!!” You’ve got our vote Boris!!

That pretty much seems to sum up the mind set of many Tory voters

It's a pity that there isn't any credible alternative to he Tories, well done Momentum!

[GazLaz]

Hound.

You can look all you want for alternative information about the effect of Austerity. It doesn't exist.

What I posted is confirmed fact about what our economy has done over the past decade.

That was predicted, 10 years ago by precisely the same economists who have this week criticised the IFS's analysis of Labour's tax and spend plans.

After a while, you have to face up to whether you're serious about addressing facts and predictions from people with a track record of getting them right. Or whether you prefer to just ignore them.

So I'll ask again. Looking at those graphs, which are confirmed, unarguable facts, do you accept that we have had an appalling decade of economic performance? That that that was predictable AND predicted as a consequence of Tory economic policy?

Yes Billy, who do you think you are coming on here and posting facts. You should be ashamed of yourself!

[selby]

 Donny, don't look at the latest credible polls, you won't get to sleep tonight.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as  has  caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
  The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
 And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
   

“I don’t care that The Tories have hammered the NHS, Crime is rising, child poverty is increasing, school funding is reducing, there’s a disaster within social care... Boris says he’s going to ‘get Brexit done’ (whatever that means) and give Johnny Foreigner a good thrashing!!” You’ve got our vote Boris!!

That pretty much seems to sum up the mind set of many Tory voters

It's a pity that there isn't any credible alternative to he Tories, well done Momentum!

Labour would not be any worse than the Tories.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Meanwhile, Boris has again refused to commit to an interview with Andrew Neil.

And people still consider this maniac to be fit to run the country.

Wouldn’t have anything to hide would he?

[Filo]

Meanwhile, Boris has again refused to commit to an interview with Andrew Neil.

And people still consider this maniac to be fit to run the country.

Wouldn’t have anything to hide would he?

People have been radicalised into believing they can do no wrong

[Filo]

Meanwhile, Boris has again refused to commit to an interview with Andrew Neil.

And people still consider this maniac to be fit to run the country.

Wouldn’t have anything to hide would he?

He says it’s down to other people if he does the interview, so basically the the man that wants to lead our Country can not decide for himself, which in turn means he’s just a stooge for someone else

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50592259