Roll up,roll up

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes. Ok. I used a rhetorical device in saying 100%. It signifies that this is an issue upon which debate is very unlikely to be of much point.

What would you say if I said I was 100% sure the sun would come up tomorrow?

[drfchound]

Yes. Ok. I used a rhetorical device in saying 100%. It signifies that this is an issue upon which debate is very unlikely to be of much point.

What would you say if I said I was 100% sure the sun would come up tomorrow?

I would agree that it will, unless of course the World comes to an end tonight.
The Corbyn 100% thing is not a given.

[River Don]

RD I was informed years ago BT apparently told the government of the time they had no duct space for other companies cables.Not long ago I spent 4 years surveying the network for old cable they wanted recovering and they have plenty of duct space.

They were well aware of what was going on with BT and petitioned against it for years. Eventually the business was bought by TalkTalk, who scrapped the service and went for an inferior alternative.

Such a missed opportunity.

[roversdude]

Wish we could get it - to make it worse we keep getting flyers sent through advertising it, like Bullseye this is what you could have had

[wing commander]

   I'm sorry but the reality is this is a disaster of a Policy that would actually harm development in broadband..I was listening to a interview on sky news with a expert,not in tech or broadband but a legal expert.In his opinion BT would launch legal action against the plan and with the financial power they have he expects it to be 5 years before that would be resolved by the courts.In that time nobody would be investing in anything and why would you if your not getting a return on your investment..
  So the end result is even bigger delays...That's not even mentioning the badly costed plan or the massive black hole that would appear in the pention pots...

   It's a fag packet policy designed to grab a few headlines that they know will never become reality

[drfchound]

You only have to think back to how badly the nationalised businesses like the NCB and  British Steel were run to know that it would be terrible.
So much wasted money.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye Hound.

Because they did brilliantly when privatised didn't they? And even moreso, the process of privatisation of coal and steel did wonders for the South Yorkshire economy didn't it?

But don't stop there. What a raging success rail privatisation was. By the late 90s, the network had pretty much fallen apart through lack of investment by the private sector, and Network Rail was re-nationalised. And the Private Operating Companies? What a job they have done. Chronic lack of capacity and the highest fares in Europe. And twice now, it's been categorically shown that a Govt-run ECML works far better than the private sector managed.

Then there's the NHS. We get better health outcomes than the private sector-domiated American system, and it costs us about 40% as much per person. Not 40% LESS. 40% AS MUCH.

This line that nationalised systems are always rubbish and inefficient compared to the private sector is demonstrably nonsense. But it keeps coming back, time and again, despite the evidence.

[wilts rover]

You only have to think back to how badly the nationalised businesses like the NCB and  British Steel were run to know that it would be terrible.
So much wasted money.

Given that one of those industries no longer exists and the other barely exists they are hardly a rousing endorsement for privatisation are they?

[Ldr]

Simplistic question and not restricted to the broadband question. Why not means test. Why should those who can afford things not pay for them? Surely state aid should be for those who need. An example. I know someone whose personal wealth is in the mid 7 figure bracket, what was the point in him being eligible for child benefit for his 2 kids? Surely that's just wasting money? Same principle with any of these universal ideas

[drfchound]

You only have to think back to how badly the nationalised businesses like the NCB and  British Steel were run to know that it would be terrible.
So much wasted money.

Given that one of those industries no longer exists and the other barely exists they are hardly a rousing endorsement for privatisation are they?

Wilts, read my post again as it clearly says “you only have to look back to see how badly the companies were run”.
Surely you can see that I was talking about them in the past tense but the point is valid.
There was a tremendous amount of wasted money.

Coming from a pit village I knew lads who boasted about skiving on their shifts and not getting pulled for it and was told of the wasted materials and machinery etc.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Aye Hound.

Because they did brilliantly when privatised didn't they? And even moreso, the process of privatisation of coal and steel did wonders for the South Yorkshire economy didn't it?

But don't stop there. What a raging success rail privatisation was. By the late 90s, the network had pretty much fallen apart through lack of investment by the private sector, and Network Rail was re-nationalised. And the Private Operating Companies? What a job they have done. Chronic lack of capacity and the highest fares in Europe. And twice now, it's been categorically shown that a Govt-run ECML works far better than the private sector managed.

Then there's the NHS. We get better health outcomes than the private sector-domiated American system, and it costs us about 40% as much per person. Not 40% LESS. 40% AS MUCH.

This line that nationalised systems are always rubbish and inefficient compared to the private sector is demonstrably nonsense. But it keeps coming back, time and again, despite the evidence.

Aye, private losses rather than public ones. Certainly in the case of steel, next to no hope of making money out of it.

[BobG]

There is an EXTREMELY illuminating article here. It's well worth your time to read.

https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-lost-the-broadband-race-in-1990-1224784

I remember Dr Cochrane - although I didn't know what he says here. An honest bloke. An engineer. I don't care if it's dogma from the left or dogma from the right. They are equally odious - as this story illustrates in Spades.

This is why we have shit broadband today.

BobG

I don't see your logic BFYP.

Broadband in the UK has been a spectacular market failure.

We have poor services because private companies haven't invested in infrastructure.

We have expensive services, with customers unfairly tied into having landlines that never get used.

We have poor geographical coverage, because companies don't see themselves getting commercial reward for the investment.

The market has failed utterly here.

And you're saying the solution is to give tax payers' money to the companies who have failed us?

Why should we do that, rather than have the state run the services itself?
T
 

The reason it has failed is the private companies put profit before infrastructure, I only get 12mb on fibre because the cables from the cabinet are old aluminium cables, openreach refuse to replace them for copper

[wilts rover]

You only have to think back to how badly the nationalised businesses like the NCB and  British Steel were run to know that it would be terrible.
So much wasted money.

Given that one of those industries no longer exists and the other barely exists they are hardly a rousing endorsement for privatisation are they?

Wilts, read my post again as it clearly says “you only have to look back to see how badly the companies were run”.
Surely you can see that I was talking about them in the past tense but the point is valid.
There was a tremendous amount of wasted money.

Coming from a pit village I knew lads who boasted about skiving on their shifts and not getting pulled for it and was told of the wasted materials and machinery etc.

No hound you need to prove your theory - were the pits and steelworks better run before and after nationalisation? Because they clearly weren't afterwards and I bet your pit village is evidence of that.

[BobG]

Have you never seen the artisan types working for the wonderful services companies like Capita and CapGemini and that lot Hound?

Worse than dockers in my experience.

Cheers

BobG

[drfchound]

You only have to think back to how badly the nationalised businesses like the NCB and  British Steel were run to know that it would be terrible.
So much wasted money.

Given that one of those industries no longer exists and the other barely exists they are hardly a rousing endorsement for privatisation are they?

Wilts, read my post again as it clearly says “you only have to look back to see how badly the companies were run”.
Surely you can see that I was talking about them in the past tense but the point is valid.
There was a tremendous amount of wasted money.

Coming from a pit village I knew lads who boasted about skiving on their shifts and not getting pulled for it and was told of the wasted materials and machinery etc.

No hound you need to prove your theory - were the pits and steelworks better run before and after nationalisation? Because they clearly weren't afterwards and I bet your pit village is evidence of that.

Wilts, I don’t need to prove anything.

[SydneyRover]

Simplistic question and not restricted to the broadband question. Why not means test. Why should those who can afford things not pay for them? Surely state aid should be for those who need. An example. I know someone whose personal wealth is in the mid 7 figure bracket, what was the point in him being eligible for child benefit for his 2 kids? Surely that's just wasting money? Same principle with any of these universal ideas

Totally agree with you Ldr, means testing is the fairest way to dole out any form of welfare, education is the answer for anyone living a life of penury not making a valid claim.

[drfchound]

Simplistic question and not restricted to the broadband question. Why not means test. Why should those who can afford things not pay for them? Surely state aid should be for those who need. An example. I know someone whose personal wealth is in the mid 7 figure bracket, what was the point in him being eligible for child benefit for his 2 kids? Surely that's just wasting money? Same principle with any of these universal ideas

Totally agree with you Ldr, means testing is the fairest way to dole out any form of welfare, education is the answer for anyone living a life of penury not making a valid claim.

So, if free broadband to everyone isn’t free to everyone (as I suggested it might not be a couple of days ago) then he will be stretching the truth if he then was to means test it.
Assuming he wins on December 12th of course.

[SydneyRover]

Simplistic question and not restricted to the broadband question. Why not means test. Why should those who can afford things not pay for them? Surely state aid should be for those who need. An example. I know someone whose personal wealth is in the mid 7 figure bracket, what was the point in him being eligible for child benefit for his 2 kids? Surely that's just wasting money? Same principle with any of these universal ideas

Totally agree with you Ldr, means testing is the fairest way to dole out any form of welfare, education is the answer for anyone living a life of penury not making a valid claim.

So, if free broadband to everyone isn’t free to everyone (as I suggested it might not be a couple of days ago) then he will be stretching the truth if he then was to means test it.
Assuming he wins on December 12th of course.

So just to clarify Hound, you are putting spin on a labour policy and then justifying your first spin with extra spin? 

[wing commander]

Means testing isn't a perfect scenario by any means but why isn't Corbyn a fan of it just out of interest??? Surely it's better than some of the crazy plans we have in place now..

Take winter fuel allowance.My dad who is well off,lives in a 5 bed house and wont have to worry about money for the rest of his life gets it every year (when it's cold enough) when he doesn't need it.Yet a friend of mine whose a single mum,bringing up 2 young kids on her own without any help from the state or the useless father can hardly afford to keep the house warm..

Their has to be a better system than means testing but until someone thinks of it,its the best way.

[Donnywolf]

... ditto WCo

I get the £100 each Winter (as does Wife - if she got shut of me she would get £200) but it does not depend on the Temperature so that will be what your Dad gets

In addition there is a separate Cold Weather Payment which is Temp dependant and kicks in after so many days colder than a minimum threashold

Amazingly the Brits on the Costas get the WFA even though it could be argued they should not. They and other old s****s like me were encouraged to decline such payments but I dont know the uptake on the idea

I agree someone should think of a better idea and I dont know why Jeremy Corbyn is anti Means Testing - perhaps a legacy of the stigma attached. My Dad used to pour scorn on "Means testing" whenever it was mentioned and he had heard it

cheers dw

[idler]

There is an EXTREMELY illuminating article here. It's well worth your time to read.

https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-lost-the-broadband-race-in-1990-1224784

I remember Dr Cochrane - although I didn't know what he says here. An honest bloke. An engineer. I don't care if it's dogma from the left or dogma from the right. They are equally odious - as this story illustrates in Spades.

This is why we have shit broadband today.

BobG

I don't see your logic BFYP.

Broadband in the UK has been a spectacular market failure.

We have poor services because private companies haven't invested in infrastructure.

We have expensive services, with customers unfairly tied into having landlines that never get used.

We have poor geographical coverage, because companies don't see themselves getting commercial reward for the investment.

The market has failed utterly here.

And you're saying the solution is to give tax payers' money to the companies who have failed us?

Why should we do that, rather than have the state run the services itself?
T
 

The reason it has failed is the private companies put profit before infrastructure, I only get 12mb on fibre because the cables from the cabinet are old aluminium cables, openreach refuse to replace them for copper

How often do Brits invent or develop things that go on benefit foreign companies rather than our own?
It's criminal how government or bureaucracy has strangled ideas at birth to our detriment over the years.

[wing commander]

... ditto WCo

I get the £100 each Winter (as does Wife - if she got shut of me she would get £200) but it does not depend on the Temperature so that will be what your Dad gets

In addition there is a separate Cold Weather Payment which is Temp dependant and kicks in after so many days colder than a minimum threashold

Amazingly the Brits on the Costas get the WFA even though it could be argued they should not. They and other old s****s like me were encouraged to decline such payments but I dont know the uptake on the idea

I agree someone should think of a better idea and I dont know why Jeremy Corbyn is anti Means Testing - perhaps a legacy of the stigma attached. My Dad used to pour scorn on "Means testing" whenever it was mentioned and he had heard it

cheers dw

DW been a oldy mate you are obviously more clued up on these things than me lol.However the fact is that large amounts of money are given to people who don't actually need it while others struggle who do..

My father actually donates his,but that's not the point really the system is a farce..

Means testing comes in for a lot of critisism but if someone can come up with something better i'm all ears.Just giving everybody if for free is just not the answer as you cant do that for everything..

And surely nobody can argue that ex pat Brit pensioners sat on a balcony in the costa del sol  enjoying a sangria on the British tax payer is a good use of public funds..

[SydneyRover]

Hope this is up to date

From September 2015, UK expats in Spain will no longer receive the £8.7 million (€11.1 million) paid out in winter fuel allowances. ... The decision to scrap the allowance will affect around 50,000 British pensioners living in Spain.Dec 30, 2014

Winter Fuel Payments for Pensioners Living Abroad
http://www.retirementexpert.co.uk/winter-fuel-payments-for-pensioners-living-abroad.html

[Donnywolf]

Well - you learn something every day

Did not know that payment had been stopped. It will not put me off going though !

[idler]

... ditto WCo

I get the £100 each Winter (as does Wife - if she got shut of me she would get £200) but it does not depend on the Temperature so that will be what your Dad gets

In addition there is a separate Cold Weather Payment which is Temp dependant and kicks in after so many days colder than a minimum threashold

Amazingly the Brits on the Costas get the WFA even though it could be argued they should not. They and other old s****s like me were encouraged to decline such payments but I dont know the uptake on the idea

I agree someone should think of a better idea and I dont know why Jeremy Corbyn is anti Means Testing - perhaps a legacy of the stigma attached. My Dad used to pour scorn on "Means testing" whenever it was mentioned and he had heard it

cheers dw

DW been a oldy mate you are obviously more clued up on these things than me lol.However the fact is that large amounts of money are given to people who don't actually need it while others struggle who do..

My father actually donates his,but that's not the point really the system is a farce..

Means testing comes in for a lot of critisism but if someone can come up with something better i'm all ears.Just giving everybody if for free is just not the answer as you cant do that for everything..

And surely nobody can argue that ex pat Brit pensioners sat on a balcony in the costa del sol  enjoying a sangria on the British tax payer is a good use of public funds..

I left school in 1964 and retired in 2014 just short of my 66th birthday. I paid tax for most of those years and still pay tax now. I earned my pension and if I decided to live abroad for a year or two why should I forfeit my pension? I would still be paying UK tax.

[bobjimwilly]

Making the broadband means tested, in my eyes, is like making free access to libraries means tested.
The internet is the biggest library that ever existed; it should be free to everyone. It's a great policy and will bring the UK into the 21st century, alongside the likes of Japan and South Korea.

[SydneyRover]

the internet is just the communication line to the library 

[Ldr]

I don't recall this much porn in Carcroft Library........

[albie]

The vast majority of the cost involved in the broadband plan is in the provision of the infrastructure, which is a national investment to enable future economic development in line with other economies.

Once that cost is met from the public purse, and from loans at or near zero interest to government, the service provision is a low marginal cost addition.

I don't see what the benefit of means testing is in this industry, unless you think that the principle should apply to all basic utility access...including those provided by the private sector.

[bpoolrover]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-tax-plans-could-cost-1bn-qr03vcbbf