This isn't the Brexit I voted for (part 2)...

[SydneyRover]

HA, thanks for your comprehensive reply to my comment the other day it did let selby off the hook but no matter it's a free forum of which most respect.

[selby]

   Tyke, you are one hundred per cent right, but in most cases on this forum you are sowing seeds on fallow ground mate, even water would not pass through the surface it is so thick.

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA.

Railway nationalisation. There is nothing in any EU regulations to stop us having a mainly nationalised system. And there's the point. The problem has been political will to do so. We in Britain have had 40 years of being one of the most right wing of economic philosophies in the EU. And you criticise the EU for being right wing! That's the bit I cannot get my head around when I hear people on the Left criticise the EU. Your argument is "You are stopping us from implementing a socialist programme that has never come remotely close to being voted for in this country for 70 years. So we are going to Leave and lose all the practical protections against the worst excesses of capitalism that you currently provide!"

It's quite bizarre and, frankly, petulant. And like I say, when Johnson and his cabal strip away the protections of workers' rights and environmental standards that the EU has built up, it is YOU and the rest of the Left Brexit supporters who will be directly responsible.

VAT on energy bills. We did used to have zero VAT on energy bills. The Tories imposed VAT in 1993. (You see a pattern emerging here?) Personally, I would prefer us to have a zero rate now, and I accept that the EU regulations (designed to stop countries in the Single Market undercutting each other) stop us doing this. But get it in perspective. For a family of four with a £1000 per year energy bill, it's 3p per person per day. Compare that to the fact that we've already lost 3% of GDP since voting to Leave. Which is nearly £3 per person per day. And rising.

UK being banned from having language tests for doctors. Have you got a source for that? I've never heard that one.

Deportation of criminals. We actually are not barred from deporting EU nationals who have lived here more than 5 years. We are not supposed to deport people who have committed minor crimes in those circumstances. For what it's worth, my take is that if someone has set up life in a country and then commits a minor crime, they are the responsibility of their established country. You don't shovel them off somewhere else. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you support the recent deportation to Jamaica of people who have sold drugs and committed driving offences? In which case, we have very different concepts of what socialism means.

[wilts rover]

The UK is the only European country without a primarily nationalised railway network. Although to be acurate our railways are mostly state run. They are just run by the national state railways of other countries.

It's UK government policy since Thatcher that stop the UK having a nationalised railway network, not EU rules.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-railways-eu-rules-nationalise-single-market-restrictions-labour-a8968691.html

[Not Now Kato]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop  paying UK child benefits to children livin6g outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy

But we didn't need to leave the EU to nationalise the railways. Set language rules for doctors? What? Where did that crap come from? We could always deport EU criminals - my eldest Son has been involved in this process, it already happens, it's something we already do.  FFS, get your head out of the Daily Mail - you've been lied to, and you continue to believe the lies!

NNK

Here we go again. Just because you’re ignorant to a fact doesn’t mean it’s not a fact.

Right now the UK CANNOT deliver a wholesale re-nationalisation of the railways. EU ownership and procurement rules make this impossible. And these rules are due to be tightened next year

EU criminals are protected from standard deportation by the EU citizens charter if they’ve lived in the UK for more than 5 years. Consequently, the deporting of these criminals is a long and laborious process involving many appeals.

Doctors from outside of the EU are tested on their ability to speak English. The UK attempted to introduce legislation to make these mandatory for doctors who’ve qualified in the EU. However this was challenged & opposed by the EU

The abolition of child benefits to kids living outside the UK?

The ability to scrap VAT on energy bills?

So, you’ve got 5 potential benefits to leaving the EU. I get you don’t like them because it goes against your narrative, but that’s not my problem. I’m sure in a few months time you’ll come back with the “just one benefit to leaving the eu’ line again. It’s standard practice for remainers.  And again you’ll be presented with benefits which you’ll dismiss as lies simply because it’s an inconvenient truth. As for reading the Daily Mail, I wouldn’t wipe my arse on that rag, as you know. As I’ve said before, I’m immune to the abuse of rabid remainers now. It’s gone on so long that I rarely react to it.

Sadly, it's you who seem to be ignorant of the facts.
 
The UK can and could deliver wholesale nationalisation of the railways.  It has already made a start with LNER.  Also public ownership of at least one bank.  That we don't choose to do so is entirely down to our successive governments.
 
As to deportation, I'd better tell my Son that he, and the security services are wrong then!  There have though, been a number of lengthy appeals regarding deportation, these being mainly from areas of the world other than the EU, but you already knew this.
 
I was not aware of any language tests for doctors, hence my 'what?'  I will look into this further,
 
I didn't respond to your child benefit statement as it is a reciprocal arrangement throughout all of the EU; as are many other benefits that Brits abroad will now be deprived of.
 
I didn't respond to your VAT on energy bills either as there appears to be appetite from this, or any previous government, to do so.  Now if you'd said female sanitary products....
 
And you talk about 'potential' benefits.  None of these are promised or guaranteed!  So, no tangible benefits to the country.
 
Meanwhile  https://www.ft.com/content/6cf7bba6-598f-11ea-abe5-8e03987b7b20
 
50,000 jobs processing the new customs paperwork.  Let's say around £20k a year salary each, so that's an additional £19 million a week, or £1 billion a gear give or take, and that's not including the costs associated with training and the technology behind it - to do something that was a zero cost to us before Brexit as we didn't have to do it.  Then there's the cost to companies in producing all the necessary paperwork in the first place.  Money which could have been spent on the NHS; but hey, your lot promised £350k a week for the NHS, I wonder if they'll deliver?
 

[Not Now Kato]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .

I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!

The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .

There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .

As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .

You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .

Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .

I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .

The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .

Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .

Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .

You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .

Thankfully we were given that opportunity .

Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off!  Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail.  No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!

Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .

No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .

Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .

Must be the Sun then?  Or the Express?  Possibly the Times?
 
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
 
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!

[tyke1962]

By the way Tyke. That Globalisation that you keep on decrying. It's led the thick end of 2 billion people out of abject poverty and into reasonable living standards over this past 30 years.

The EU has massively lifted the living standards from Estonia to Portugal.

If you were truly socialist, you'd embrace that. Instead of coming out with the childish "neoliberal" insult.

Billy nobody cares about lifting poverty in Estonia in the leave voting heartlands .

Why would they in the most deprived areas of the UK ? .

Your just demonstrating what the working class in the heartlands think of the Labour Party today .

Just how disconnected can you be and yet you carry on banging the EU drum .

Without the historic Labour vote in the heartlands you have absolutely nothing and you deserve absolutely nothing given the attitude towards the leave voters .

If pinning your hopes on leaving the EU leading to economic Armageddon is the way to knock the leave voters in to line and coming back to the party then I'm afraid you maybe heading for a very long wait .

Your first task should be to understand why the heartlands voted the way they did and have abandoned the party in their thousands .

Actually acknowledging Labour have the problem not the electorate would be a good start for them and yourself going forward .

Labour were absolutely annihilated Billy and lost seats they comfortably win and yet the electorate have the problem ?

Really !!

Your stock answer to this would be to rejoin the EU , reopen the borders and free movement and carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty .

Good luck selling that one around here .

[Glyn_Wigley]

By the way Tyke. That Globalisation that you keep on decrying. It's led the thick end of 2 billion people out of abject poverty and into reasonable living standards over this past 30 years.

The EU has massively lifted the living standards from Estonia to Portugal.

If you were truly socialist, you'd embrace that. Instead of coming out with the childish "neoliberal" insult.

Billy nobody cares about lifting poverty in Estonia in the leave voting heartlands .

Why would they in the most deprived areas of the UK ? .

Your just demonstrating what the working class in the heartlands think of the Labour Party today .

Just how disconnected can you be and yet you carry on banging the EU drum .

Without the historic Labour vote in the heartlands you have absolutely nothing and you deserve absolutely nothing given the attitude towards the leave voters .

If pinning your hopes on leaving the EU leading to economic Armageddon is the way to knock the leave voters in to line and coming back to the party then I'm afraid you maybe heading for a very long wait .

Your first task should be to understand why the heartlands voted the way they did and have abandoned the party in their thousands .

Actually acknowledging Labour have the problem not the electorate would be a good start for them and yourself going forward .

Labour were absolutely annihilated Billy and lost seats they comfortably win and yet the electorate have the problem ?

Really !!

Your stock answer to this would be to rejoin the EU , reopen the borders and free movement and carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty .

Good luck selling that one around here .

And what's going to happen in the Labour heartlands when the EU grants disappear and the Tories keep their hands in their pockets?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Yeah. We do live in a poor part of Europe. Which is why the tax payers of Barcelona and Paris and Amsterdam and Frankfurt and Vienna and Helsinki were about to pour €3.3bn Euros of funds into South Yorkshire.

You and your like have told them to f**k off because we don't want that money. Good call, that.

By the way, find me a single post where I have said that we should rejoin the EU.

And when you can't, go and sit down and ask yourself why you are setting up straw men who don't exist to argue against.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

Yeah. We do live in a poor part of Europe. Which is why the tax payers of Barcelona and Paris and Amsterdam and Frankfurt and Vienna and Helsinki were about to pour €3.3bn Euros of funds into South Yorkshire.

You and your like have told them to f**k off because we don't want that money. Good call, that.

By the way, find me a single post where I have said that we should rejoin the EU.

And when you can't, go and sit down and ask yourself why you are setting up straw men who don't exist to argue against.

But you would like to see the UK in the EU again given the depth to your EU support and the faith you seem to have in them .

With such strong views how could that possibly not be the case ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Because I accept the situation we are in. I think we SHOULD be in the EU, but we won't be again in my lifetime. Your side won. I accept that and it would be highly damaging to society to go through once again what you have just put us through.

I'll be spending the rest of my working life trying to minimise the damage. And I reserve the right to remind you of that damage as it rolls out over the years and decades. It's already started with the real point of Brexit - putting this Kitson and his cabal in No10.

Now grow up,accept the consequences of what you have done, and stop blaming others.

And while you're at it, stop assuming you know what people think. Read what they write, not what the caracature you want them to be would think.

[tyke1962]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .

I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!

The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .

There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .

As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .

You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .

Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .

I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .

The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .

Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .

Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .

You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .

Thankfully we were given that opportunity .

Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off!  Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail.  No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!

Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .

No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .

Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .

Must be the Sun then?  Or the Express?  Possibly the Times?
 
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
 
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!

Yorkshire Post pal .

Membership of the EU keeps the UK from fully capitalising on trade with other major economies such as Japan , India and the US .

The EU subjects the UK to slow and inflexible bureaucracy making it hard for small companies to do business .

Improved global trade agreements and selective immigration will have a positive impact on the UK job market .

The average person in the UK loses hundreds of pounds each year to EU VAT contributions and agricultural subsidies .

That's not even mentioning the huge financial contribution we pay each year .

[Herbert Anchovy]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop  paying UK child benefits to children livin6g outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy

But we didn't need to leave the EU to nationalise the railways. Set language rules for doctors? What? Where did that crap come from? We could always deport EU criminals - my eldest Son has been involved in this process, it already happens, it's something we already do.  FFS, get your head out of the Daily Mail - you've been lied to, and you continue to believe the lies!

NNK

Here we go again. Just because you’re ignorant to a fact doesn’t mean it’s not a fact.

Right now the UK CANNOT deliver a wholesale re-nationalisation of the railways. EU ownership and procurement rules make this impossible. And these rules are due to be tightened next year

EU criminals are protected from standard deportation by the EU citizens charter if they’ve lived in the UK for more than 5 years. Consequently, the deporting of these criminals is a long and laborious process involving many appeals.

Doctors from outside of the EU are tested on their ability to speak English. The UK attempted to introduce legislation to make these mandatory for doctors who’ve qualified in the EU. However this was challenged & opposed by the EU

The abolition of child benefits to kids living outside the UK?

The ability to scrap VAT on energy bills?

So, you’ve got 5 potential benefits to leaving the EU. I get you don’t like them because it goes against your narrative, but that’s not my problem. I’m sure in a few months time you’ll come back with the “just one benefit to leaving the eu’ line again. It’s standard practice for remainers.  And again you’ll be presented with benefits which you’ll dismiss as lies simply because it’s an inconvenient truth. As for reading the Daily Mail, I wouldn’t wipe my arse on that rag, as you know. As I’ve said before, I’m immune to the abuse of rabid remainers now. It’s gone on so long that I rarely react to it.

Sadly, it's you who seem to be ignorant of the facts.
 
The UK can and could deliver wholesale nationalisation of the railways.  It has already made a start with LNER.  Also public ownership of at least one bank.  That we don't choose to do so is entirely down to our successive governments.
 
As to deportation, I'd better tell my Son that he, and the security services are wrong then!  There have though, been a number of lengthy appeals regarding deportation, these being mainly from areas of the world other than the EU, but you already knew this.
 
I was not aware of any language tests for doctors, hence my 'what?'  I will look into this further,
 
I didn't respond to your child benefit statement as it is a reciprocal arrangement throughout all of the EU; as are many other benefits that Brits abroad will now be deprived of.
 
I didn't respond to your VAT on energy bills either as there appears to be appetite from this, or any previous government, to do so.  Now if you'd said female sanitary products....
 
And you talk about 'potential' benefits.  None of these are promised or guaranteed!  So, no tangible benefits to the country.
 
Meanwhile  https://www.ft.com/content/6cf7bba6-598f-11ea-abe5-8e03987b7b20
 
50,000 jobs processing the new customs paperwork.  Let's say around £20k a year salary each, so that's an additional £19 million a week, or £1 billion a gear give or take, and that's not including the costs associated with training and the technology behind it - to do something that was a zero cost to us before Brexit as we didn't have to do it.  Then there's the cost to companies in producing all the necessary paperwork in the first place.  Money which could have been spent on the NHS; but hey, your lot promised £350k a week for the NHS, I wonder if they'll deliver?

NNK

You simply refuse to believe anything remotely positive regarding Brexit because it would make you wrong; simple. They are still potential benefits because we’ve only just left!!

Oh, and regarding the railway, you’re wrong (again). EU procurement rules mean the government cannot place every area of the rail network into public ownership. I’ve been involved in reviewing this for one reason and another.  Do yourself a favour and read up on this.

BTW, the last Labour government attempted to introduce zero vat on energy...and this was vetoed by the EU.

There was a case on the radio last year of a Romanian criminal who couldn’t be deported, as a result of his EU citizenship

You’re so blinkered in your views NNK that any evidence to the contrary is just dismissed. On that basis, I’m not wasting any more time on this. Bit of a tip though,  I’d recommend that you stop reading the Guardian and base your opinion on facts instead.

[tyke1962]

Because I accept the situation we are in. I think we SHOULD be in the EU, but we won't be again in my lifetime. Your side won. I accept that and it would be highly damaging to society to go through once again what you have just put us through.

I'll be spending the rest of my working life trying to minimise the damage. And I reserve the right to remind you of that damage as it rolls out over the years and decades. It's already started with the real point of Brexit - putting this Kitson and his cabal in No10.

Now grow up,accept the consequences of what you have done, and stop blaming others.

And while you're at it, stop assuming you know what people think. Read what they write, not what the caracature you want them to be would think.

So it's descended to that level has it ?

Grow up and accept the consequences of what you've done .

Equally why don't you accept the consequences of your party's insane Brexit strategy and the next decade of tory rule .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke. It's YOUR Brexit. That's what I mean when I ask you to own it. This is what you voted for

Regarding Labour's failure, I've asked you before for your observations on what happened to Labour's support when Corbyn unequivocally embraced Brexit 12 months ago. I suggest you go and consider that, THEN come back and see if you really want to discuss the problems with Labour's approach to Brexit.

Go on. In your own time.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .

I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!

The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .

There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .

As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .

You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .

Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .

I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .

The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .

Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .

Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .

You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .

Thankfully we were given that opportunity .

Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off!  Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail.  No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!

Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .

No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .

Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .

Must be the Sun then?  Or the Express?  Possibly the Times?
 
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
 
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!

Yorkshire Post pal .

Membership of the EU keeps the UK from fully capitalising on trade with other major economies such as Japan , India and the US .

The EU subjects the UK to slow and inflexible bureaucracy making it hard for small companies to do business .

Improved global trade agreements and selective immigration will have a positive impact on the UK job market .

The average person in the UK loses hundreds of pounds each year to EU VAT contributions and agricultural subsidies .

That's not even mentioning the huge financial contribution we pay each year .

And ever-so-conveniently not even mentioning the massive economic benefits from membership of the Single Market that are always ignored in lists of this kind.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's the bit I never get Glyn.

I understand why folk on the Right want us out. It's all about nationalism and I get that.

But in the Left?

The logic seems to go:

1) If we all work together in Europe, bringing down barriers to trade, we all benefit greatly. There's nobody outside a few swivel eyed right wing economists who doubts that.

2) The EU also has a very progressive approach to redistribution of money to economically disadvantaged areas. Like Northern England. They are prepared to take huge sums from richer areas (like London and the like) and pour it into South Yorkshire.

3) The EU has also played a huge role in reducing international frictions in Europe, securing democracy and helping defuse centuries old conflicts.

4) EU critics on the Left ignore all that and say " if I'm not allowed to renationalise the Donny to Goole line, I want us out!"

It's a bizarrely blinkered approach. Focus relentlessly on the negatives of membership, exaggerate those in a style that a Mail editorial would be proud of, and totally ignore the positives. Then scream "neo-liberal, class traitor" at anyone on the Left who disagrees with them.

[tyke1962]

Tyke. It's YOUR Brexit. That's what I mean when I ask you to own it. This is what you voted for

Regarding Labour's failure, I've asked you before for your observations on what happened to Labour's support when Corbyn unequivocally embraced Brexit 12 months ago. I suggest you go and consider that, THEN come back and see if you really want to discuss the problems with Labour's approach to Brexit.

Go on. In your own time.

Well you tell me what Corbyn's position was because clearly he didn't know himself from one day to another .

Somewhere between Leave and Remain perhaps ?


https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stance

[tyke1962]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .

I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!

The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .

There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .

As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .

You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .

Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .

I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .

The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .

Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .

Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .

You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .

Thankfully we were given that opportunity .

Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off!  Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail.  No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!

Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .

No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .

Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .

Must be the Sun then?  Or the Express?  Possibly the Times?
 
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
 
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!

Yorkshire Post pal .

Membership of the EU keeps the UK from fully capitalising on trade with other major economies such as Japan , India and the US .

The EU subjects the UK to slow and inflexible bureaucracy making it hard for small companies to do business .

Improved global trade agreements and selective immigration will have a positive impact on the UK job market .

The average person in the UK loses hundreds of pounds each year to EU VAT contributions and agricultural subsidies .

That's not even mentioning the huge financial contribution we pay each year .

And ever-so-conveniently not even mentioning the massive economic benefits from membership of the Single Market that are always ignored in lists of this kind.

Membership of the single market comes with strings attached , acceptance of the four freedoms and  £13bn a year .

It also comes with allowing unelected EU bureaucrats making decisions that greatly affect your everyday life without you having the right to vote them out if you don't like them .

It's about as democratic and accountable as North Korea .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Don't ask me to defend Corbyn over Brexit. He was a car crash.

But THIS is where the trouble started.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu

Back then, Labour were on 39-40% in the polls. Within 5 months, they'd sunk to 19%. With the vast majority of the 5-6 million people who'd evaporated from Labour,moving to the LDs or Greens

Those are the facts. Address those before you start accusing those who talked Corbyn down from that position of losing the Election.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

Don't ask me to defend Corbyn over Brexit. He was a car crash.

But THIS is where the trouble started.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu

Back then, Labour were on 39-40% in the polls. Within 5 months, they'd sunk to 19%. With the vast majority of the 5-6 million people who'd evaporated from Labour,moving to the LDs or Greens

Those are the facts. Address those before you start accusing those who talked Corbyn down from that position of losing the Election.

Billy

I'm puzzled by your figures of 5 to 6 million voters who left Labour to The Greens and Lib Dems .

The election in december had the Lib Dem vote share up by 1.3 million and the total Green vote was only 850k .

Clearly this mass exodus didn't convert to votes at the GE .

It's pretty much accepted that Labour's ambiguous brexit position caused them the most harm rather than anything else .

It got to a point where Thornberry would have campaigned against her own party's brexit deal if they'd entered government .

The electorate in the heartlands worked it out that the Labour Party weren't with them on Brexit and I suspect the party as a whole shrugged their shoulders and said so what whilst embracing the London middle class remainers .

The final straw for many and they won't be returning in a hurry I can tell you .

I only voted Labour because I didn't dare risk the embarrassment of my town electing a tory and respecting history of my town and Tory governments .

That's actually not a great endorsement I can tell you and I really had to grit my teeth .

The depth of dislike bordering on hatred for Labour around Barnsley is substantial .

Bordering on the hatred we had for Thatcher in the 80's .

Yes it's that deep but that's what happens when you feck over your own and its actually worse than the tories doing you over because you expect that anyway .


 

[selby]

  Looks like the usual suspects minus Syd who will be reading the Guardian for a couple of quotes are having a hard time of it today, although still largely in denial of why they were left behind and ended up big time losers.
 And how can we quantify their thoughts after three and a half years, still bitter and twisted, still blaming the older and uneducated people, still hoping that their own country fails to be a success just to prove their point, confident in their own ability to be right in everything on this particular subject, while being totally dismissive and in most cases down right nasty to anyone with a different opinion to them

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

You are highly intelligent but you're refusing to look at the bleeding obvious here. I shouldn't need to spell it out to you.

For the first half of 2019, Labour had the Brexit policy you wanted. Supporting us leaving. The result was that Labour dropped from 40% to 19% in the polls, with almost everyone they lost moving to supporting the avowedly Remain supporting LDs and Greens.

That is established fact.

Labour changed its Brexit policy after that because it was facing not a defeat but nationwide oblivion.

Yes, that change caused problems in Northern Leave-supporting seats. That is nothing to the damage that would have been done if Labour hadn't changed policy.  In Summer 2019, Labour was in serious danger of being replaced by the LDs as the main opposition to the Tories. It was only by changing the Brexit policy that Labour was able to neutralise that threat, and pull itself back up to around 30% by Election time.

You are making a fundamental logical error. Labour went into the Election supporting a second referendum and lost. That does not mean that they lost BECAUSE they went into the Election supporting a second referendum. The polling evidence from Summer 2019 suggests that, had they gone into the Election supporting Brexit, they'd have been pretty much wiped out.

What you are doing here is precisely what you do when you criticise the EU. You criticise the bits that you don't like. But you don't consider the flip side - the counterbalancing advantages.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

You are highly intelligent but you're refusing to look at the bleeding obvious here. I shouldn't need to spell it out to you.

For the first half of 2019, Labour had the Brexit policy you wanted. Supporting us leaving. The result was that Labour dropped from 40% to 19% in the polls, with almost everyone they lost moving to supporting the avowedly Remain supporting LDs and Greens.

That is established fact.

Labour changed its Brexit policy after that because it was facing not a defeat but nationwide oblivion.

Yes, that change caused problems in Northern Leave-supporting seats. That is nothing to the damage that would have been done if Labour hadn't changed policy.  In Summer 2019, Labour was in serious danger of being replaced by the LDs as the main opposition to the Tories. It was only by changing the Brexit policy that Labour was able to neutralise that threat, and pull itself back up to around 30% by Election time.

You are making a fundamental logical error. Labour went into the Election supporting a second referendum and lost. That does not mean that they lost BECAUSE they went into the Election supporting a second referendum. The polling evidence from Summer 2019 suggests that, had they gone into the Election supporting Brexit, they'd have been pretty much wiped out.

What you are doing here is precisely what you do when you criticise the EU. You criticise the bits that you don't like. But you don't consider the flip side - the counterbalancing advantages.

So basically they sacrificed 52 seats so they could finish second and not third or fourth .

The heartlands were the sacrificial lamb to keep the London vote even though they were absolutely hammered anyway .

Well that's fair enough and at least I have it confirmed from a Labour man who I suspect is more than just a Labour voter and probably active within the party .

It's pretty clear to me that the Labour Party no longer represents me when push comes to shove .

That's totally fine and I'll vote accordingly in the future .

[SydneyRover]

  Looks like the usual suspects minus Syd who will be reading the Guardian for a couple of quotes are having a hard time of it today, although still largely in denial of why they were left behind and ended up big time losers.
 And how can we quantify their thoughts after three and a half years, still bitter and twisted, still blaming the older and uneducated people, still hoping that their own country fails to be a success just to prove their point, confident in their own ability to be right in everything on this particular subject, while being totally dismissive and in most cases down right nasty to anyone with a different opinion to them

Usual dribble selby still suffering ADD then 

[selby]

I got the same one on the hook again, I keep chucking him back but he never learns.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Like I say. You determinedly ignore the counterfactual.

Yes. I KNOW Labour lost those seats. But saying they were sacrificed is, frankly, stupid. And what would have been the point of winning those 52 and losing 100+ others? Labour, in Autumn 2019, had to find a way to give itself the best chance of making something out of a nightmare position. The result was a shocker, but that defeat may have been the least bad one it could expect.

You say you'll not support Labour in future. Why precisely? Because it went into the 2019 election offering a second referendum? That sounds like petulance to be honest. Your choice of course, but if that's your attitude, I don't want to be part of a party that comes begging you. I'd rather look to court the younger generation coming through. You and your outdated attitudes are the past.

[SydneyRover]

I got the same one on the hook again, I keep chucking him back but he never learns.

Sorry to see you still have ADD selby, if problems persist please see your doctor. An overused 'get out' I'm only fishing on your part as well selby why don't you register your dog for the politics and stick to football 

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

Like I say. You determinedly ignore the counterfactual.

Yes. I KNOW Labour lost those seats. But saying they were sacrificed is, frankly, stupid. And what would have been the point of winning those 52 and losing 100+ others? Labour, in Autumn 2019, had to find a way to give itself the best chance of making something out of a nightmare position. The result was a shocker, but that defeat may have been the least bad one it could expect.

You say you'll not support Labour in future. Why precisely? Because it went into the 2019 election offering a second referendum? That sounds like petulance to be honest. Your choice of course, but if that's your attitude, I don't want to be part of a party that comes begging you. I'd rather look to court the younger generation coming through. You and your outdated attitudes are the past.

The second referendum was the thing that finally broke the Labour Party are in a difficult position and selling me down the road .

Once those words were uttered that was when the line was crossed .

Nobody but nobody should have to vote twice on a referendum , end of , the result is the result and I'd say the same had remain won .

You go court the younger vote Billy , knock yourself out pal .

40 years I've voted Labour , held membership , financed the party through trade union membership and fought the tories both physically and otherwise .

See if they are made of the same stuff as myself and thousands more .

Good luck with that .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .

I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!

The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .

There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .

As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .

You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .

Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .

I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .

The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .

Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .

Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .

You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .

Thankfully we were given that opportunity .

Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off!  Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail.  No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!

Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .

No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .

Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .

Must be the Sun then?  Or the Express?  Possibly the Times?
 
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
 
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!

Yorkshire Post pal .

Membership of the EU keeps the UK from fully capitalising on trade with other major economies such as Japan , India and the US .

The EU subjects the UK to slow and inflexible bureaucracy making it hard for small companies to do business .

Improved global trade agreements and selective immigration will have a positive impact on the UK job market .

The average person in the UK loses hundreds of pounds each year to EU VAT contributions and agricultural subsidies .

That's not even mentioning the huge financial contribution we pay each year .

And ever-so-conveniently not even mentioning the massive economic benefits from membership of the Single Market that are always ignored in lists of this kind.

Membership of the single market comes with strings attached , acceptance of the four freedoms and  £13bn a year .

It also comes with allowing unelected EU bureaucrats making decisions that greatly affect your everyday life without you having the right to vote them out if you don't like them .

It's about as democratic and accountable as North Korea .

Just like the UK then. I don't know what you're moaning about.