Covid - 19 the non-political thread

[silent majority]

As I've said elsewhere. We HAVE to have something like this to get us out of the crisis.

But this just shows you can't divorce this from politics. Many people will choose not to use it because they don't trust the Govt when it says it won't compromise their personal data.

Whilst we can't divorce this from politics entirely its certainly possible to at least try. I can't read the other thread on the corona virus because there's just too many people seemingly hell bent on criticising the government at every possible opportunity. Whilst I don't doubt there needs to be a reckoning I'd like to read and discuss other aspects of our current situation rather than wading through one political pointy after another.

[silent majority]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

[redarmy82]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

Everyone moaning about this app, but I bet the majority are happy to use Facebook, Twitter etc, Amazon. Have you any idea how they use your data?!

[IDM]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

Problem is, many people will be skeptics about the data privacy issues, regardless of any truth (or lack of) in their concerns..

I don’t think that is particularly a political issue either - more a worry over data protection and technology, perhaps due to a general lack of understanding of how such technology works.

[drfchound]

So, when this app is up and running will you be downloading it, or is anyone thinking its a step too far?

There are still loads of people who don’t have a smart phone, my wife is one.
Her phone is so primitive that it runs on gas.
I saw a lady on the news on the IOW this morning saying the same thing.
Even if they want to be included.....they can’t.

I’m not sure why anyone would object to providing part of a postcode to anyone.
Maybe if Mr Starmer had thought of setting this APP up then it would be deemed to be ok.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So, when this app is up and running will you be downloading it, or is anyone thinking its a step too far?

There are still loads of people who don’t have a smart phone, my wife is one.
Her phone is so primitive that it runs on gas.
I saw a lady on the news on the IOW this morning saying the same thing.
Even if they want to be included.....they can’t.

I’m not sure why anyone would object to providing part of a postcode to anyone.
Maybe if Mr Starmer had thought of setting this APP up then it would be deemed to be ok.

Hound.

As I've said carefully and calmly, the issue is one of trust. Can you truly, honestly blame people for being apprehensive about whether they should just trust the Govt?

Listen, I WANT to be able to do so on something so important. But that's a two way process.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

SM.

NHSX has announced that the data it collects, including that on LOCATIONS will not be destroyed after the track and tracing job is done. It will be kept, anonymised for research purposes. Now, I'm far from an IT expert, but I'm sure I've heard about apparently anonymised data being de-anonymised.

I'm imagining the thoughts of Mrs X who doesn't want Mr X finding out at some point down the line that Mrs X was in close proximity to Mr Y at various times in the crisis, when she'd said she'd been queuing up outside Tesco for 2 hours.

The problem, at core, is not whether anything WILL be done nefariously or carelessly with the data. It is whether people TRUST the Govt not to do so, and to be straight with them that it isn't doing anything else.

[redarmy82]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

SM.

NHSX has announced that the data it collects, including that on LOCATIONS will not be destroyed after the track and tracing job is done. It will be kept, anonymised for research purposes. Now, I'm far from an IT expert, but I'm sure I've heard about apparently anonymised data being de-anonymised.

I'm imagining the thoughts of Mrs X who doesn't want Mr X finding out at some point down the line that Mrs X was in close proximity to Mr Y at various times in the crisis, when she'd said she'd been queuing up outside Tesco for 2 hours.

The problem, at core, is not whether anything WILL be done nefariously or carelessly with the data. It is whether people TRUST the Govt not to do so, and to be straight with them that it isn't doing anything else.

I get your point BST, however, anyone who has any map app on their phone, I'm pretty sure data is collected the same way.

This is where they are getting all the traffic data from.

I could be wrong, but the likes of Google, Facebook etc use your data in far more intrusive ways than this app will, however people still use them.

[silent majority]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

SM.

NHSX has announced that the data it collects, including that on LOCATIONS will not be destroyed after the track and tracing job is done. It will be kept, anonymised for research purposes. Now, I'm far from an IT expert, but I'm sure I've heard about apparently anonymised data being de-anonymised.

I'm imagining the thoughts of Mrs X who doesn't want Mr X finding out at some point down the line that Mrs X was in close proximity to Mr Y at various times in the crisis, when she'd said she'd been queuing up outside Tesco for 2 hours.

The problem, at core, is not whether anything WILL be done nefariously or carelessly with the data. It is whether people TRUST the Govt not to do so, and to be straight with them that it isn't doing anything else.

BST,

You're politicising everything. I also think that generalised location data, which is only ascertained during the track and trace phase and is not GPS style data won't concern anyone, not even in your outlandish example of Mr and Mrs X. When people are contacted to say they've been in close proximity to somebody with the virus nobody is identified. If you don't come into contact then the data held in the app is deleted after 28 days.

So my point still stands, what is it collecting that should bother anyone if there's nothing there to be misused in the first place?

[silent majority]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

SM.

NHSX has announced that the data it collects, including that on LOCATIONS will not be destroyed after the track and tracing job is done. It will be kept, anonymised for research purposes. Now, I'm far from an IT expert, but I'm sure I've heard about apparently anonymised data being de-anonymised.

I'm imagining the thoughts of Mrs X who doesn't want Mr X finding out at some point down the line that Mrs X was in close proximity to Mr Y at various times in the crisis, when she'd said she'd been queuing up outside Tesco for 2 hours.

The problem, at core, is not whether anything WILL be done nefariously or carelessly with the data. It is whether people TRUST the Govt not to do so, and to be straight with them that it isn't doing anything else.

I get your point BST, however, anyone who has any map app on their phone, I'm pretty sure data is collected the same way.

This is where they are getting all the traffic data from.

I could be wrong, but the likes of Google, Facebook etc use your data in far more intrusive ways than this app will, however people still use them.

That's exactly right. Which is why the NHS have opted for a different strategy to that proposed by Google and Facebook, those companies store much more than anyone realise and yet I fail to see anybody protesting.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SM

I'm politicising nothing here. I haven't given my opinion. I'm suggesting what I suspect many other people are going to say. And I suspect the app will get not remotely close to the 80% take up it is reported as needing. Which will be a tragedy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RA

I agree. But I'm not talking about people having rational responses. People,a lot of people anyway, will work on gut feeling.

[silent majority]

SM

I'm politicising nothing here. I haven't given my opinion. I'm suggesting what I suspect many other people are going to say. And I suspect the app will get not remotely close to the 80% take up it is reported as needing. Which will be a tragedy.

You need to make the distinction clearer then BST because it certainly looks like you're' expressing an opinion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SM
Or you need to read what I write more carefully. Two sides.

Do I trust the Govt to be fair and honest? No if course I don't. This is brought to you by the very people who harvested social media info to identify political ingenues who could be targeted with 2 billion quids worth of Facebook ad lies to tip the 2016 vote. As I was posting back in early March, I very much wanted to get behind the Govt on this crisis. But they have lied repeatedly throughout the past 2 months.

Of course I don't trust them.

2) Do I think there's anything concrete to worry about in this app? Likely not.

3) Will I use it? Probably so on balance.

But I'm not the issue here.

[redarmy82]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

SM.

NHSX has announced that the data it collects, including that on LOCATIONS will not be destroyed after the track and tracing job is done. It will be kept, anonymised for research purposes. Now, I'm far from an IT expert, but I'm sure I've heard about apparently anonymised data being de-anonymised.

I'm imagining the thoughts of Mrs X who doesn't want Mr X finding out at some point down the line that Mrs X was in close proximity to Mr Y at various times in the crisis, when she'd said she'd been queuing up outside Tesco for 2 hours.

The problem, at core, is not whether anything WILL be done nefariously or carelessly with the data. It is whether people TRUST the Govt not to do so, and to be straight with them that it isn't doing anything else.

I get your point BST, however, anyone who has any map app on their phone, I'm pretty sure data is collected the same way.

This is where they are getting all the traffic data from.

I could be wrong, but the likes of Google, Facebook etc use your data in far more intrusive ways than this app will, however people still use them.

That's exactly right. Which is why the NHS have opted for a different strategy to that proposed by Google and Facebook, those companies store much more than anyone realise and yet I fail to see anybody protesting.

It has take a global pandemic for me and SM to agree on something. 

[Iberian Red]

As I've said elsewhere. We HAVE to have something like this to get us out of the crisis.

But this just shows you can't divorce this from politics. Many people will choose not to use it because they don't trust the Govt when it says it won't compromise their personal data.

I can't read the other thread on the corona virus because there's just too many people seemingly hell bent on criticising the government at every possible opportunity.

The irony.
That statement has contradicted the whole point of you opening a new thread about keeping politics out of a corona virus debate.

[Copps is Magic]

It does collect data. The first half of your postcode, your phone ID, and any extra data you voluntarily submit. It stores it for 28 days.

OK, let me rephrase that, it doesn't collect any personal data that government, big brother or any other person/body can misuse or pry into.

If somebody is worried over handing over the 1st part of their post code then there is something seriously wrong.

SM.

NHSX has announced that the data it collects, including that on LOCATIONS will not be destroyed after the track and tracing job is done. It will be kept, anonymised for research purposes. Now, I'm far from an IT expert, but I'm sure I've heard about apparently anonymised data being de-anonymised.

I'm imagining the thoughts of Mrs X who doesn't want Mr X finding out at some point down the line that Mrs X was in close proximity to Mr Y at various times in the crisis, when she'd said she'd been queuing up outside Tesco for 2 hours.

The problem, at core, is not whether anything WILL be done nefariously or carelessly with the data. It is whether people TRUST the Govt not to do so, and to be straight with them that it isn't doing anything else.

I get your point BST, however, anyone who has any map app on their phone, I'm pretty sure data is collected the same way.

This is where they are getting all the traffic data from.

I could be wrong, but the likes of Google, Facebook etc use your data in far more intrusive ways than this app will, however people still use them.

Then its not a trade-off, is it? Google can do nefarious things with your data, governments can do nefarious things with your data (and they have in recent times). Two wrongs don't make a right they make two wrongs. You should be careful about your data in all settings. I don't particularly trust any of them to be honest.

Sticking to the topic at hand, there is a key difference. Google and Apple's contact tracing system is based on storing data on people's devices, which was the approach supported by many academics, the UK has chosen a different approach to gather all the data in a central database for however long.

I would read this.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/technology-and-innovation/exclusive-wobbly-tracing-app-failed-clinical-safety-and-cyber-security-tests/7027564.article

[Copps is Magic]

Then, I would read this

He also said the app will iterate — with future versions potentially asking users to share location data. So while the NHSX has maintained that only pseudonymized data will be collected and held centrally — where it could be used for public health “research” purposes — there remains a possibility that data could be linked to individual identities, such as if different pieces of data are combined by state agencies and/or if the centralized store of data is hacked and/or improperly accessed.

Privacy experts have also warned of the risk of ‘mission creep’ down the tracing line. And Gould admitted under committee questioning that once data has been uploaded there will be no way for app users to ask for it to be deleted.

[Copps is Magic]

Then This

"He was also unable to answer whether employers would be able to gain access to the data under the auspices of ensuring “the health of their employees”. Gould was unable to immediately rule this out."

[silent majority]

As I've said elsewhere. We HAVE to have something like this to get us out of the crisis.

But this just shows you can't divorce this from politics. Many people will choose not to use it because they don't trust the Govt when it says it won't compromise their personal data.

I can't read the other thread on the corona virus because there's just too many people seemingly hell bent on criticising the government at every possible opportunity.

The irony.
That statement has contradicted the whole point of you opening a new thread about keeping politics out of a corona virus debate.

I fail to see the point you're making. All Ive done is explain why I've opened another thread, I see no irony in the point I've made.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

If it was use the app or stay in your house what would people do?

[roversontheup]

Strangely I am not finding the actual lockdown as hard as I thought I would. Really not missing football. Enjoying getting out for a walk every day and have found so many great walks from home that I didn’t know existed.
I’ve done things I never did.....done lots of baking, cut my partner’s hair and pretty well! Growing lots of veggies and even going to have a go at making some face masks just in case.
It’s also helped me in terms of losing my Mum (nearly 2 years ago). I was still very emotional about it but now I am just so thankful she isn’t here whilst all this is happening.

[drfchound]

If it was use the app or stay in your house what would people do?

Waiting for our friend to say be pissed off or dead.

[drfchound]

Strangely I am not finding the actual lockdown as hard as I thought I would. Really not missing football. Enjoying getting out for a walk every day and have found so many great walks from home that I didn’t know existed.
I’ve done things I never did.....done lots of baking, cut my partner’s hair and pretty well! Growing lots of veggies and even going to have a go at making some face masks just in case.
It’s also helped me in terms of losing my Mum (nearly 2 years ago). I was still very emotional about it but now I am just so thankful she isn’t here whilst all this is happening.

Much the same feelings for me too.
I am happy with the lockdown to be honest.
I do take my dogs out for a long walk every day so am continuing to do that anyway, no difference there.
I am lucky that there are dozens of footpaths and bridleways where I live.
Sadly my walking football and golf are not available to me but I have redirected my energies into twice a week long distance off-road biking.
I have a mini gym at home and am using that facility every day plus the usual gardening, decorating, fence painting activities.
I have even found out how the washing machine works !!
Like yourself, I am surprised that I am not missing going to the Rovers so much and as I have said before, will be reluctant to go back to watching live football until I can feel safe doing so.
I am really missing not seeing my son and his wife and the grandkids (apart from on FaceTime).

[SydneyRover]

those over 60 and with vulnerable health conditions will not benefit from the app immediately as they will still have to isolate, they will only benefit later when hopefully the virus has receded, unless it can show when your in close proximity to a tory voter 

Forum admin - this is the non-political thread.

[Copps is Magic]

If it was use the app or stay in your house what would people do?

What's that latin phrase? Reductio ad absurdum?

That is not the choice we face. If the app helps, it helps.

But there is no replacement for a well-planned exit strategy, with improved manual testing and tracing of cases, with new public health measures for those businesses that want to open, stringent measures for care homes, a well-equipped and prepared healtcare system.

We need a strategy, not a technological solution posing as a pancea.

[Bentley Bullet]

those over 60 and with vulnerable health conditions will not benefit from the app immediately as they will still have to isolate, they will only benefit later when hopefully the virus has receded, unless it can show when your in close proximity to a tory voter 

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to your phone's battery life, if it was only triggered when a Labour supporter was in close proximity?


Edited by forum admin

[The Red Baron]

Apart from football, what one thing are you missing the most?

Of course there are other sports which I miss just as much and normally defines my week, i.e. Sunday afternoon watching formula 1, but the thing I miss the most is not seeing the grandkids.

Missing football, now cricket and most of all friends who I haven't seen since the start of lockdown.

On the plus side, I'm catching up with my Rovers stats from years gone by and am keeping busy writing content for the Official Site (Rover of the Day, etc). Watching lots of TV, but keeping away from news channels apart from the lunchtime news once a day!

[ravenrover]

Whilst I have reservations my wife is keen on the app. Only problem is when she goes out the phone stops in the house, how many more are like that?

[drfchound]

Loads of people and there are loads more who don’t have a smart phone.