Track and Trace

[Glyn_Wigley]

I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.

And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.

But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.

She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.

According to full facts she's not his sister....
 
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/

Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.

Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?

I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.

Your turn to do the same now.

[drfchound]

I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.

And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.

But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.

She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.

According to full facts she's not his sister....
 
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/

Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.

Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?

I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.

Your turn to do the same now.

Glyn, we both know.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.

And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.

But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.

She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.

According to full facts she's not his sister....
 
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/

Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.

Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?

I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.

Your turn to do the same now.

Glyn, we both know.

I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.

[BigH]

I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.

Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?

SM, I wholeheartedly agree that, in concept, re-introducing TTI is a positive development and an essential step as the country begins the long, inexorable grind of dealing with Covid.

My fear, however, is that the way it is being implemented in the UK - and England in particular - will be too little too late to make any meaningful difference to our progress. Another example, potentially, of an excellent idea in principle failing through poor execution.

An obvious example of a failing is the obsession with driving the process centrally. To my mind, local Directors of Public Health and councils should be given resources and far reaching powers to introduce the plan that they consider appropriate for their locality.

I live on Merseyside and even I could tell you where the pockets of Covid are and likely to flourish. Regrettably, they correlate closely to areas of social deprivation, under-education and poor community behaviour. How does the government's plan, run centrally from call centres and, shortly, via the much awaited app, with only lip service paid to the views of local community leaders address these key themes? Educating people in these areas and getting their buy-in will be hard but essential to progress.

Unless and until TTI is embedded behaviour accepted by all parts of our society I don't see us making much progress I'm afraid.

[silent majority]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.

[silent majority]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.

Yes I know, this is you 'I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone'.

You do realise it doesn't use the 'internet' don't you?

[Glyn_Wigley]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.

Yes I know, this is you 'I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone'.

You do realise it doesn't use the 'internet' don't you?

How does it connect to anywhere else without data usage?

I only pay to use phone minutes and texts on my phone. Anything else is 'the internet' to me. I don't need it and I'm not paying for it.

[BigH]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

I think we're sort of agreeing SM; apologies if I misunderstood the thrust of your comment.

For people to diss TTI on the grounds of a political viewpoint is just bizarre. Getting out of the hole that we, as a race are in, transcends mere politics. TTI is a proven approach to trying to resolve a huge public health problem.

The fact that some don't get that bears out my point that gaining the commitment of those who refuse to engage is incredibly important and can't be left to a few people in central government whose focus seems to be on inflicting their own preferred approach.

 

[IDM]

From what I can gather, some people are reluctant to use an app, for fear of privacy breaches.

The manual system relies upon individuals taking part, and then giving out names and contact information of the people they have been in close contact with, perhaps even vicariously admitting to  breaching lockdown rules - again there could be data protection concerns.

The manual system also results in some people being asked/told to self isolate for 14 days, but not tested unless they have symptoms.  Why not just test them anyway.?

As said before, my concerns with this are practical rather than political.

I fear that there will be a multitude of people who distrust the government because of the Cummings affair, regardless of their own political leanings.  They will be less likely to participate, even though it is ideal to run a test and trace system regardless..

[drfchound]

From what I can gather, some people are reluctant to use an app, for fear of privacy breaches.

The manual system relies upon individuals taking part, and then giving out names and contact information of the people they have been in close contact with, perhaps even vicariously admitting to  breaching lockdown rules - again there could be data protection concerns.

The manual system also results in some people being asked/told to self isolate for 14 days, but not tested unless they have symptoms.  Why not just test them anyway.?

As said before, my concerns with this are practical rather than political.

I fear that there will be a multitude of people who distrust the government because of the Cummings affair, regardless of their own political leanings.  They will be less likely to participate, even though it is ideal to run a test and trace system regardless..

IDM, there were plenty of people on this very forum saying they wouldn’t trust the government with any information that was provided through such an APP.......long before the Cummings affair.

I do agree with you that “why not just test them” is a better option.

[IDM]

People distrust the government because they believe they have handled the coronavirus outbreak badly, as well as the PM being an habitual liar.

Regardless of party, that’s a sad state of affairs..

[Jonathan]

I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.

[SydneyRover]

Trust is the problem right at the heart of this government wouldn't one think?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sir Roger Gale, the senior Tory backbencher on R4 again tonight saying he'd been told that TTI had been going to be launched on Monday and the first that he heard about it being launched at 9am today was when Johnson announced it as he was being grilled by the Liaisinn Committee at about 4:30 pm yesterday.

As I keep saying, this Government exists to try to control the media agenda. It is plain as day that they have run this out early to try to move the story on from Cumgate.

Shameful behaviour.

[EasyforDennis]

I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.

Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?

I don't think there is any real negativity towards track and trace per se. The big problem is the total lack of trust in anything associated with this government. Agreed track and trace has worked well in the rest of the world (US excepted of course) so why did we not follow what has been used abroad? This government are obsessed with Brexit and seem to want to do everything "our way" which is plainly not working.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.

And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.

But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.

She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.

According to full facts she's not his sister....
 
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/

Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.

Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?

I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.

Your turn to do the same now.

Glyn, we both know.

I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.

"Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads."

[SydneyRover]

this from yesterday is definately non-positve

The government’s target of hitting 200,000 Covid-19 daily tests by Monday has been described as “meaningless” by senior scientists, who say that the published data on testing does not adhere to the basic rules of statistics.

Experts told the Guardian the published daily testing figures appeared “almost designed to confuse” and made it impossible to judge whether current levels of testing are adequate to support the track, trace and isolate programme that is said to be essential for easing lockdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/28/government-target-of-200000-covid-19-tests-meaningless

[silent majority]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.

Yes I know, this is you 'I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone'.

You do realise it doesn't use the 'internet' don't you?

How does it connect to anywhere else without data usage?

I only pay to use phone minutes and texts on my phone. Anything else is 'the internet' to me. I don't need it and I'm not paying for it.

To be fair Glynn, maybe you shouldn't be involving yourself in discussions of this sort and making wide sweeping statements about things you don't understand?

[silent majority]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

I think we're sort of agreeing SM; apologies if I misunderstood the thrust of your comment.

For people to diss TTI on the grounds of a political viewpoint is just bizarre. Getting out of the hole that we, as a race are in, transcends mere politics. TTI is a proven approach to trying to resolve a huge public health problem.

The fact that some don't get that bears out my point that gaining the commitment of those who refuse to engage is incredibly important and can't be left to a few people in central government whose focus seems to be on inflicting their own preferred approach.

 

I think we are agreeing.

[IDM]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

I think we're sort of agreeing SM; apologies if I misunderstood the thrust of your comment.

For people to diss TTI on the grounds of a political viewpoint is just bizarre. Getting out of the hole that we, as a race are in, transcends mere politics. TTI is a proven approach to trying to resolve a huge public health problem.

The fact that some don't get that bears out my point that gaining the commitment of those who refuse to engage is incredibly important and can't be left to a few people in central government whose focus seems to be on inflicting their own preferred approach.

 

I’m in general agreement with you BigH.  Your last para sums up the difficulties however.  It is a lack of trust in those few personalities in central government that is the main barrier to T&T succeeding, data protection issues aside.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BigH,

That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.

Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.

I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.

Yes I know, this is you 'I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone'.

You do realise it doesn't use the 'internet' don't you?

How does it connect to anywhere else without data usage?

I only pay to use phone minutes and texts on my phone. Anything else is 'the internet' to me. I don't need it and I'm not paying for it.

To be fair Glynn, maybe you shouldn't be involving yourself in discussions of this sort and making wide sweeping statements about things you don't understand?

I understand that I only pay for minutes and texts so the app is no use to me.

[silent majority]

I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.

Well we both want to use it and hope it works. But I can't understand this about personal data, it stores so very little and what it does store cannot identify individuals. I just think there's far too much concern over nothing. As a society we hand over personal data all the time, loads of it by the bucket load and none of us bat an eyelid.

[IDM]

We hand over personal data by choice - for example on a supermarket app they have our name, mobile number and email address.  They also have to abide by GDPR rules.

For the manual T&T to work, the person reporting themselves ill has to pass on names and contact details of the people they suspect they have had close contact to - without having got permission from those people to pass on that information.?

Many people won’t mind that - especially as this is a serious health issue - but I expect plenty would object.

[bobbymax]

Let's be honest, the chances of Joe Public using this and adhering to the advice given is the same as Cummings and his cohorts collectively deciding to take a trip to Barnard Castle and jumping in the river - zero! For a start, it's not legal as it did not complete mandatory privacy checks before going live. Secondly, it's wide-open to abuse of all kinds.
I'm all for track and trace as it's the only way this terrible disease will be controlled but this is a rushed and inoperable system which is doomed to failure. The European model largely works but Johnson would lose face if he employed and we're right back to this being a political decision made which conflicts with scientific advice.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's great SM, but it ignores the context. The trust thing.

Cummings has previous on this. Do you know one of the ways he identified gullible people, in order to bomb their FB feed with (literally) thousands of lies in the run up to the 2016 Election? It's worth reading about if you are properly going to understand why he provokes such a visceral reaction of lack of trust.

He set up a website filled with anti-EU ravings and pushed it widely into FB feeds. On the website was a link to a free-to-enter competition in which you could win £50million by predicting a set of football results. They had been very careful about this and the chances of actually winning were in once-in-the-age-of-the-Universe territory.

They got thousands of applicants, who, by applying, voluntarily gave them access to piles of personal data. Then they used Cambridge Analytica to profile them and decide which (lying) adverts to send to them in the last few days before the vote.

The idea, explictly - he's said so himself - was to identify people who were both inherently anti-EU, and thick as mince, who could then be manipulated.

Now, I'm not saying that is a danger here. But that is a tiny bit of the man's back story. And it is why so many people are instinctively against trusting anything he has any connection with.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyone interested in that data harvesting operation can read about it from para 177 in the DCMS Select Committee report here.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/1791/179107.htm#footnote-143

The DCMS wanted to interview Cummings but he refused to attend. He is still in actual breach of Contempt of Parliament rules, while he continues to run our CV-19 policy. Good eh?

[silent majority]

I decided to have a look at these apps that posters say work well around the world, and ask the question 'why didn't we use one of them'? The brief answer to that is there aren't any!

The longer answer to that is that everybody seems to be using their own apps and there is no common agreement on the best way to achieve this. It seems to be about the implementation rather than the technology.

But the surprising thing is there are very few apps actually up and running at the moment as this spreadsheet from MIT shows;

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ATalASO8KtZMx__zJREoOvFh0nmB-sAqJ1-CjVRSCOw/edit#gid=0

If you wish to see the full explanation then MIT have produced this article. They go into some detail on what they consider are the top 25 apps (not all released) but stress there are another 150 in development and the crucial point they make is that none of these have so far proven themselves.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/07/1000961/launching-mittr-covid-tracing-tracker/

[silent majority]

That's great SM, but it ignores the context. The trust thing.

Cummings has previous on this. Do you know one of the ways he identified gullible people, in order to bomb their FB feed with (literally) thousands of lies in the run up to the 2016 Election? It's worth reading about if you are properly going to understand why he provokes such a visceral reaction of lack of trust.

He set up a website filled with anti-EU ravings and pushed it widely into FB feeds. On the website was a link to a free-to-enter competition in which you could win £50million by predicting a set of football results. They had been very careful about this and the chances of actually winning were in once-in-the-age-of-the-Universe territory.

They got thousands of applicants, who, by applying, voluntarily gave them access to piles of personal data. Then they used Cambridge Analytica to profile them and decide which (lying) adverts to send to them in the last few days before the vote.

The idea, explictly - he's said so himself - was to identify people who were both inherently anti-EU, and thick as mince, who could then be manipulated.

Now, I'm not saying that is a danger here. But that is a tiny bit of the man's back story. And it is why so many people are instinctively against trusting anything he has any connection with.

Sorry BST but I can't go along with your politicisation of everything, and throwing in an example of Cummings doing something during the Brexit debate is hardly relevant.

If memory serves me right you told everybody on here about the app that you had downloaded and used to report every day. You also asked the moderators to make it a sticky on here, that's how you considered it to be so valuable. About 3.3m people downloaded that app, not enough to be truly representative of the UK population.

If we choose to make the NHS app (in partnership with GCHQ) a political argument then its doomed from the start. It should be our duty to use it and promote it. It stores nothing of any value at all, see here;

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing

and yet you wish to make it a 'trust' thing. With that approach we will have to wait for a general election to implement anything!

[Not Now Kato]

I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.

Well we both want to use it and hope it works. But I can't understand this about personal data, it stores so very little and what it does store cannot identify individuals. I just think there's far too much concern over nothing. As a society we hand over personal data all the time, loads of it by the bucket load and none of us bat an eyelid.

One of the things which is likely to put people off using the app is that it hasn't been explained properly and in a way that people can feel comfortable about it....
 
In simple terms, it's a non personalised store and send application.  That is, it collects anonymous information about people you come into contact with, stores it on your mobile phone and transmits it over the net to a central depository where it is kept for 28 days before being deleted.  That's the shortened version.
 
Is the information anonymous? Well, it is and it isn't.  When you install the app it puts a system generated Key or ID on your phone which is linked to your mobile number and you are required to enter the first half of your postcode, (this latter to help identify affected areas or hotspots in the country).  No personal information is recorded by the app.
 
How does it collect information?  The app relies on Bluetooth technology to record the Key of anyone you come into contact with for a specified duration, (nominally 15 minutes), so long as the a) have the app installed on their phone and b) that they have Bluetooth turned on. Your Key will be stored on their mobile simultaneously.
 
So what happens to all this information?  Good question.  In the main, probably nothing - it just stays on yours and theirs phones.  But if someone develops CV-19 and reports it then they enter this in the App which will require them to upload their last 14 days of recorded data, (Keys), to a central database.
 
What happens next I hear you ask?  Well the 'system' will send a message to all the phones who's Keys indicate that that those phones were 'close to' the affected persons phone advising them to seek medical advice/get tested.
 
What about the data on the central database?  It will be analysed by NHS staff to look for trends/hotspots etc and will be destroyed after 28 days.
 
Well, that's the theory; and from that it would appear to be a good thing and mostly harmless.  I say mostly as it does have a few flaws.  Bluetooth technology normally requires that any connection between parties requires the approval or acceptance of the party being connected to, (I'm sure you all come across this 'pairing' your mobile with you car radio etc); however, for the app to work this approval needs to be bypassed within the app, and herein lies a small problem.... It would be possible for a hacker to spoof the app and gain access to your phone with all the itinerant consequences around that and this security aspect is one that's being worked on - hopefully they will fix it before the release. 

A second issue with Bluetooth is that it operated further than the 2 metres we are required to separate by and so cold lead to false positives in the notification process.  Not that this is a bad thing in itself, any testing is good testing - but it is to be hoped the testing system doesn't thus become significantly overloaded.
 
The other issue is simply one of trust.  Whilst all the documentation regarding the app indicated that all data will be anonymous it is impossible for the app user to see what the app is really doing on your phone. Given this governments record in matter of 'truth', and previous issues with misuse of data by various factions  I think this will be the major stumbling block.
 
Do I think it's a good idea?  Emphatically - YES.
 
Will I install in on my phone? Yes, but I'll be keeping my eyes open in regards to my last point.