A-Levels

[drfchound]

Hound.

The other thing I'd have put money on would have been you ignoring the core issue and trying to have a personal dig. Living proof that maturity doesn't always come with age.

Not a dig at you at all BST, just a thought  that came into my head.
Don’t take it a a personal dig.
I would have said the same whoever had posted about putting money on it.
Truthfully, do you know anyone who has done.
As it happens, I agree with Bolton’s assumption that there isn’t  an underlying government decision to F**k up the northern working class.

I see that Belton has also mentioned hindsight.

[Hounslowrover]

Hound, unfortunately I don't know how to add an article, but in the Guardian there is an article about a parent, Huy Dong, who had long warned 39% of grades A* and D would be lower than teacher assessments using the government's algorithm, and disadvantaged students would be worst affected. He warned the education select committee too. That wasn't hindsight, perhaps someone can paste the article.

[MachoMadness]

Here it is, Hounslow. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/14/punishment-by-statistics-the-father-who-foresaw-a-level-algorithm-flaws

[belton rover]

Here it is, Hounslow. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/14/punishment-by-statistics-the-father-who-foresaw-a-level-algorithm-flaws

That’s an interesting read.
Well done to Cambridge University for accepting him regardless of his results.
A happy end to an impossible situation.
More of this level headed, sensible approach by universities and employers please.

[drfchound]

Hound, unfortunately I don't know how to add an article, but in the Guardian there is an article about a parent, Huy Dong, who had long warned 39% of grades A* and D would be lower than teacher assessments using the government's algorithm, and disadvantaged students would be worst affected. He warned the education select committee too. That wasn't hindsight, perhaps someone can paste the article.

Cheers Hounslow.
As a non Guardian reader I would never have seen that.
However, I don’t have a political viewpoint on it anyway but up to you telling me that I haven’t seen or heard a thing about it.
I’m surprised that none of our posters mentioned it before though if it was in the Guardian.

[Dutch Uncle]

Here it is, Hounslow. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/14/punishment-by-statistics-the-father-who-foresaw-a-level-algorithm-flaws

'Collective Punishment by Statistics' is exactly right

Or as I put it earlier - the educational system trying to interfere with an individual without knowing any details.

If you are going to devise a national system of grade 'correction' it only has a chance of working fairly if you know the full details and backstory of every individual affected, and to such an extent that they can be compared fairly. An impossible task in this case.

[wilts rover]

This government came into power on the back of a promise to 'level up'.

Instead, the first opportunity it has to enact that promise it has done the exact opposite.

The system they used deliberately lowered the grades of the most disadvantaged pupils - whilst raised those of the most advantaged.

And their answer to this once it has been pointed out to them will tell you all you need to know about this govenment. And its supporters.

[Hounslowrover]

Thanks MachoMadness for posting it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

I fully respect your right to think that we have done OK in 2020. I just fail to see what you base that opinion on.

I also fully understand and agree with your wish to see us pull together and not criticise for the sake of criticising. That was why I was saying loudly at the start of March that is was absolutely not the time to be playing politics. I feel naively stupid over that now, as it is undeniably clear that the Govt was in fact playing politics with us right from the start, but there you go.

My take is that our handling of the big things this year has been little short of catastrophic. But I didn't go in with the attitude "this is a Tory Govt therefore they will f**k up", despite the fact that several people on here seem to be sure that I did (I do wonder about their level.of hypocrisy when they assume it against all the facts in others, but there you go...)

If you're really interested, you can go back on the threads here and see how my opinion changed from cautiously hoping that our Govt was getting it right, to bewilderment that we also e were choosing to delay lockdown, to outright anger that we ended up with the worst death rate and worst economic hit in Europe. It didn't have to be like that and I very much hoped it wasn't going to be. And I very much wish it wasn't.

But it is. And I take my cue from Churchill who, on the theme of those who ignored the mistakes our Govt made in the 1930s over Appeasement said that the purpose of recrimination now was to stop errors in the future.

You obviously disagree with my take and I respect your right to have that opinion. Although without an argument as to why you think the way you do, forgive me if I don't respect the opinion itself.

[belton rover]

Belton.

I fully respect your right to think that we have done OK in 2020. I just fail to see what you base that opinion on.

I also fully understand and agree with your wish to see us pull together and not criticise for the sake of criticising. That was why I was saying loudly at the start of March that is was absolutely not the time to be playing politics. I feel naively stupid over that now, as it is undeniably clear that the Govt was in fact playing politics with us right from the start, but there you go.

My take is that our handling of the big things this year has been little short of catastrophic. But I didn't go in with the attitude "this is a Tory Govt therefore they will f**k up", despite the fact that several people on here seem to be sure that I did (I do wonder about their level.of hypocrisy when they assume it against all the facts in others, but there you go...)

If you're really interested, you can go back on the threads here and see how my opinion changed from cautiously hoping that our Govt was getting it right, to bewilderment that we also e were choosing to delay lockdown, to outright anger that we ended up with the worst death rate and worst economic hit in Europe. It didn't have to be like that and I very much hoped it wasn't going to be. And I very much wish it wasn't.

But it is. And I take my cue from Churchill who, on the theme of those who ignored the mistakes our Govt made in the 1930s over Appeasement said that the purpose of recrimination now was to stop errors in the future.

You obviously disagree with my take and I respect your right to have that opinion. Although without an argument as to why you think the way you do, forgive me if I don't respect the opinion itself.

Billy I think it’s impossible for someone with such an anti Tory slant to consider anything that the government does without an anti tory slant, however objective you may want to think you are being. You may have wanted the government to get things right but you would never have expected them to do so. Do I really have to find a link to a report or an opinion to qualify my own opinion? You are ( and I mean this as a compliment) a fantastic statistician. You use them as definitive proof of your thoughts. I don’t. Facts and statistics ate manipulated and twisted to suit the individual. If I showed you a right wing stat to proof my point, you’d show me a left wing stat to counter that point. If not backing up my thoughts with black and white numbers and graphs and percentages means you don’t respect my opinions, then that’s a shame, because I like healthy debate and I respect your arguments and position with or without statistics.
You are a good writer. I like reading and commenting on what you write, as I do some others on here. But facts and statistics should not be the be all and end all of opinion.

Regarding your backlog, I have rarely engaged in conversation in off topic and don’t wish to go over anyone’s old ground.

But here’s to more healthy debate, respected or otherwise.

[selby]

 Easy to put right, let the Universities set an entrance exam for all this years students in the subjects they needed grades in to do a particular course, or is that too much work for them.
  I bet they would not want to do it though.

[wilts rover]

Selby, they have exam boards whose exact job is to do that.

There is a reason why it has not been possible to do it this year...

And whatever the solution is it needs to be pretty quick. Universities will be starting back in about 3 weeks so students need to know where they are going so they can get accomodation & loans etc sorted.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

See, thoughtful though I'm sure you intended that post to be, it does fall into the great big chasm at the heart of internet discussions. And to be fair, it's a chasm I fell into the other day when replying to you.

What we do on the internet is to set up an idea of what we think the other person is, and we filter all interactions through that idea. So I wrongly assumed the other day that you were accusing Dawn Butler of lying. I did that because I assumed I knew your motives. I was wrong.

You've done the same thing here. You assume that I would always be looking to criticise any Tory policies. That's incorrect. I was full of praise for Sunak's furlough scheme. Back in March, I also had some vigorous disagreements with people on here who are probably to the left of me, who were criticising Govt policy on dealing with COVID when I thought they should have been cutting them some slack.

What I've done since then is to change my opinions when the facts demonstrated that they were right and I was wrong. So I take a bit of offence at your implication that I argue from an ideological standpoint first and always. But I understand why you say it.

[belton rover]

Billy.

You can’t really expect to write comments like this:

‘Class warfare, right under your noses. By the Govt that conned northern working class people that it is on their side.‘

and expect me or anyone else to believe you that you don’t argue from an ideological standpoint. At least mostly.

There’s nothing wrong with that, by the way. Sometimes I wish I did more of the same. I read articles, watch the news, listen to debates and form an opinion based on what I’ve digested. However, on some topics, I already have an informed bias.

For example, the Barnsley thread on the Rovers forum. I hate Barnsley FC (relatively speaking, from a football rival point of view). My hatred for them was never going to change just because Tyke and a few softies on here told me I was wrong and unkind and harsh. I know that is far more trivial than A level results, and was said partly tongue in cheek through sheer jealousy, but the point is the same.

[colfromdonny]

Easy to put right, let the Universities set an entrance exam for all this years students in the subjects they needed grades in to do a particular course, or is that too much work for them.
  I bet they would not want to do it though.

This should always be the case if universities are to get the right people onto the right courses, although I was asked the question ' if the students had attended all sessions and completed the work given, would they have completed successfully'  to allow my line manager to complete the assessment procedure.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Billy.

You can’t really expect to write comments like this:

‘Class warfare, right under your noses. By the Govt that conned northern working class people that it is on their side.‘

and expect me or anyone else to believe you that you don’t argue from an ideological standpoint. At least mostly.

There’s nothing wrong with that, by the way. Sometimes I wish I did more of the same. I read articles, watch the news, listen to debates and form an opinion based on what I’ve digested. However, on some topics, I already have an informed bias.

For example, the Barnsley thread on the Rovers forum. I hate Barnsley FC (relatively speaking, from a football rival point of view). My hatred for them was never going to change just because Tyke and a few softies on here told me I was wrong and unkind and harsh. I know that is far more trivial than A level results, and was said partly tongue in cheek through sheer jealousy, but the point is the same.

Belton.

Yes. I do believe that the Tory party exists primarily to further the aims of a particular section of society. And I very strongly believe that is wrong and should be pushed back against.

I form that opinion from years and years of experience of seeing what they do when in power. Like the examples I set out earlier today, each of which was an egregious and barefaced gift to the wealthier sections of our society, paid for by the poorer.

That doesn't mean that I kick out against every single thing they do. I weigh up the arguments and the likely outcomes.

I'm a card carrying Labour party member, but I very much supported May's response to the Salisbury incident and thought Labour's stance was appalling.

But when I see a policy which massively benefits the rich, like the A-level issue, then yes I will call it out as class warfare because that's what it is - either that or utter incompetence. Find me a policy ever from a Tory Govt that benefits the working class at the expense of established power and money and I'll take your criticisms more seriously. In the absence of that, you seems to complain because I'm vocal in my opposition to the Tories, but you don't have any convincing arguments that my opinion is wrong or unfairly based.

[belton rover]

But Billy, I don’t want to convince you that you are wrong. I’m not complaining about you, just making an observation. As you do about me. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.

[wilts rover]

To assist people in making a judgement as to whether or not this Grade fiasco is incompetence or not I suggest you read this link.

The government have said they are refusing to change the grades to teacher assessed because they are biased and this algorithm is more reliable. Yet when they tested this algorithm on last years results - at best it got 30% wrong, with English and Maths it got 50% wrong and at its worst it got 80% wrong.

https://twitter.com/rhysblakely/status/1294309305034973184

Now try and convince me why the only reason they are not going to review it is because it benefitted public school pupils.

[selby]

  There is no doubt that there is and always has been a class distinction in education in this country, but whether this particular way of designing a system to overcome the problem of actually taking exams this year was purposely designed to disadvantage certain scholars is open for debate, and is it the government or the educational  hierarchy that is responsible for it.
  As for time being put forward by Wilts to not have an entrance exam set by universities, I don't accept it, if the will is there and the effort put in most things happen, reduce  holidays in the education system in the next year to make up time lost, open school and university facilities extended hours every day to make time up. Get rid of those in the system that don't want to do their job.
  We have got to the stage where we can organise marches for thousands of people, illegal raves ,and getting to the beaches, but not send kids to school.

[foxbat]

I have exclusively uncovered the algorithm used to decide A-level results.

Unfortunately I don't understand the coding involved.
Can anyone help?

{M@k3_5UR3_tH3_p05h_k1d5_get-1st_ch01ce_of-un15}

[BillyStubbsTears]

But Billy, I don’t want to convince you that you are wrong. I’m not complaining about you, just making an observation. As you do about me. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.

And your observation is wrong. It's built on an image of someone who you think exists but doesn't.

[wilts rover]

Selby, I don't care if you accept it or not. Its just true.

A lot of what you suggested has already been put forward by education authorities, schools, unions and the Labour Party. I am a governor - I have a date in my diary for us to agree a summer catch-up plan - it passed three weeks ago.

It is the Government that rejected it. Johnson promised a 'huge' summer catch-up plan. Where is it? They promised us 20 laptops. We got 1.

I agree, get rid of those in charge who don't want to do their job. Mr G Williamson, Mr B Johnson and Mr D Cummings.

[belton rover]

But Billy, I don’t want to convince you that you are wrong. I’m not complaining about you, just making an observation. As you do about me. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.

And your observation is wrong. It's built on an image of someone who you think exists

But Billy, I don’t want to convince you that you are wrong. I’m not complaining about you, just making an observation. As you do about me. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.

And your observation is wrong. It's built on an imagee of someone who you think exists but doesn't.

But you have created that image. I’ve just noticed it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No Belton. I haven't. You've just read and absorbed selectively.

I've pointed you to other things I've said. You choose to ignore them. So, frankly, I'm not massively interested in your protestations.

[belton rover]

Not so Billy, but hey ho, we live another day.

We’re all Rovers, aren’t we? Love ya x

But just to finish with, if you were to get an honest answer from anyone one who frequents this forum as to whether THE VAST MAJORITY of your posts are anti Tory, then I think most would think the same as me.

[Darren]

  There is no doubt that there is and always has been a class distinction in education in this country, but whether this particular way of designing a system to overcome the problem of actually taking exams this year was purposely designed to disadvantage certain scholars is open for debate, and is it the government or the educational  hierarchy that is responsible for it.
  As for time being put forward by Wilts to not have an entrance exam set by universities, I don't accept it, if the will is there and the effort put in most things happen, reduce  holidays in the education system in the next year to make up time lost, open school and university facilities extended hours every day to make time up. Get rid of those in the system that don't want to do their job.
  We have got to the stage where we can organise marches for thousands of people, illegal raves ,and getting to the beaches, but not send kids to school.

Selby, i have two boys aged 8yrs and 11yrs, the eldest is due to attend Campsmount Academy in September. i am 60yrs old this this year and i am frightened for my health, do you think i'm worrying for nothing? Please tell me. have you got kids going back to school and maybe bringing covid home?

[Darren]

  There is no doubt that there is and always has been a class distinction in education in this country, but whether this particular way of designing a system to overcome the problem of actually taking exams this year was purposely designed to disadvantage certain scholars is open for debate, and is it the government or the educational  hierarchy that is responsible for it.
  As for time being put forward by Wilts to not have an entrance exam set by universities, I don't accept it, if the will is there and the effort put in most things happen, reduce  holidays in the education system in the next year to make up time lost, open school and university facilities extended hours every day to make time up. Get rid of those in the system that don't want to do their job.
  We have got to the stage where we can organise marches for thousands of people, illegal raves ,and getting to the beaches, but not send kids to school.

Selby, i have two boys aged 8yrs and 11yrs, the eldest is due to attend Campsmount Academy in September. i am 60yrs old this this year and i am frightened for my health, do you think i'm worrying for nothing? Please tell me. have you got kids going back to school and maybe bringing covid home?

 I guess that's a no then, easy to shout your mouth off when the actions you call for don't affect you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Not so Billy, but hey ho, we live another day.

We’re all Rovers, aren’t we? Love ya x

But just to finish with, if you were to get an honest answer from anyone one who frequents this forum as to whether THE VAST MAJORITY of your posts are anti Tory, then I think most would think the same as me.

Yes Belton. The vast majority of my political posts ARE anti-Tory. Because I disagree with their philosophical outlook.

The point is, I ALWAYS give reasons why I disagree with a specific policy. Always. Just as I do on the occasions that I agree with their policies. I do not EVER say, "That's a Tory policy therefore I will assume it is bad without looking at it."

That's the bit that seems to go over some folks' heads. I suggest that says more about them than me.

[belton rover]

Thanks for the clarification, Billy.
I’m off to bed now.

[Darren]

Hello, is Selby here?  Answer me please.