The Working Class And The Modern Labour Party

[BillyStubbsTears]

Which is why I keep saying...

[Axholme Lion]

They're not doing it though are they? It's just as that Embery bod say's they have lost all connection with the likes of me.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

The way I am reading what you are saying is coming across to me as labour no longer want/need the traditional working class vote? If that's the case maybe it's the reason they haven't been in power for ages? I would imagine many of the abandoned working class voters do not jump at the chance of voting tory but at the last election felt they had nowhere else to go. Labour seems to be obsessed with identity politics which only divides the nation, I would imagine most people aren't really bothered about if their neighbours are gay, black or whatever, they just want their families and communities to do well, have decent jobs and a better life. It may not be trendy and at the forefront of dinner party talk in Islington and the student common room but that's how most people are I reckon. If labour feels these people are not worth bothering with then they will never win.

I don't think it was a case of having nowhere else to go AL within the former red wall , I believe they had nowhere else to go before 2019 and had enough of it .

They saw that the Tories shared the same cultural values , tough on immigration , anti EU , tough on law and order and throw Corbyn in to the equation and his links to the IRA plus the renegade on respecting the result of the referendum and the red wall was toppled .

It was the likes of myself that had nowhere to go and voted for Labour in 2019 , I couldn't vote Tory if you put a gun to my head but it's each to their own .

Interestingly a guy called Matthew Goodwin and his team did some extensive research in 2015 inside the red wall and presented his findings to a team of Labour advisors , he virtually predicted what was coming if Labour didn't address it , they thanked him and that's the last he heard from them .

The very next day he presented to Lynton Crosby and his team inside the Tory Party and their ears pricked up and were all over his findings .

The rest as they say is history but they had many many warnings even prior to Goodwin's research .

They did abandon the core vote and the red wall , the evidence is clear and they paid a high price .

Whether things will change is possibly the real issue post brexit .

[Axholme Lion]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

The way I am reading what you are saying is coming across to me as labour no longer want/need the traditional working class vote? If that's the case maybe it's the reason they haven't been in power for ages? I would imagine many of the abandoned working class voters do not jump at the chance of voting tory but at the last election felt they had nowhere else to go. Labour seems to be obsessed with identity politics which only divides the nation, I would imagine most people aren't really bothered about if their neighbours are gay, black or whatever, they just want their families and communities to do well, have decent jobs and a better life. It may not be trendy and at the forefront of dinner party talk in Islington and the student common room but that's how most people are I reckon. If labour feels these people are not worth bothering with then they will never win.

I don't think it was a case of having nowhere else to go AL within the former red wall , I believe they had nowhere else to go before 2019 and had enough of it .

They saw that the Tories shared the same cultural values , tough on immigration , anti EU , tough on law and order and throw Corbyn in to the equation and his links to the IRA plus the renegade on respecting the result of the referendum and the red wall was toppled .

It was the likes of myself that had nowhere to go and voted for Labour in 2019 , I couldn't vote Tory if you put a gun to my head but it's each to their own .

Interestingly a guy called Matthew Goodwin and his team did some extensive research in 2015 inside the red wall and presented his findings to a team of Labour advisors , he virtually predicted what was coming if Labour didn't address it , they thanked him and that's the last he heard from them .

The very next day he presented to Lynton Crosby and his team inside the Tory Party and their ears pricked up and were all over his findings .

The rest as they say is history but they had many many warnings even prior to Goodwin's research .

They did abandon the core vote and the red wall , the evidence is clear and they paid a high price .

Whether things will change is possibly the real issue post brexit .

I can't believe that there is a massive pool of potential votes out there for them and for the sake of pandering to the trendy, pc left have cast them aside. If only they could get some real labour people on board such as in the sixties and seventies.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

The way I am reading what you are saying is coming across to me as labour no longer want/need the traditional working class vote? If that's the case maybe it's the reason they haven't been in power for ages? I would imagine many of the abandoned working class voters do not jump at the chance of voting tory but at the last election felt they had nowhere else to go. Labour seems to be obsessed with identity politics which only divides the nation, I would imagine most people aren't really bothered about if their neighbours are gay, black or whatever, they just want their families and communities to do well, have decent jobs and a better life. It may not be trendy and at the forefront of dinner party talk in Islington and the student common room but that's how most people are I reckon. If labour feels these people are not worth bothering with then they will never win.

I don't think it was a case of having nowhere else to go AL within the former red wall , I believe they had nowhere else to go before 2019 and had enough of it .

They saw that the Tories shared the same cultural values , tough on immigration , anti EU , tough on law and order and throw Corbyn in to the equation and his links to the IRA plus the renegade on respecting the result of the referendum and the red wall was toppled .

It was the likes of myself that had nowhere to go and voted for Labour in 2019 , I couldn't vote Tory if you put a gun to my head but it's each to their own .

Interestingly a guy called Matthew Goodwin and his team did some extensive research in 2015 inside the red wall and presented his findings to a team of Labour advisors , he virtually predicted what was coming if Labour didn't address it , they thanked him and that's the last he heard from them .

The very next day he presented to Lynton Crosby and his team inside the Tory Party and their ears pricked up and were all over his findings .

The rest as they say is history but they had many many warnings even prior to Goodwin's research .

They did abandon the core vote and the red wall , the evidence is clear and they paid a high price .

Whether things will change is possibly the real issue post brexit .

I can't believe that there is a massive pool of potential votes out there for them and for the sake of pandering to the trendy, pc left have cast them aside. If only they could get some real labour people on board such as in the sixties and seventies.

This is part of the problem AL , Labour MP's no longer come from the trade union movement and have done the jobs or even lived in areas where their core support is .

University graduates and in to Westminster as researchers or advisors before stepping up to MP's .

They have very little in common with the core vote and so there's little wonder they don't understand the very people they are meant to represent .

Not all of them , it would be unfair to say that but enough of them to have changed the party in the direction they did .

I think Burnham and Nanby get it but they are few and far between in my opinion .

The likes of fat ass Thornberry are still around more is the pity .

[EasyforDennis]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

The way I am reading what you are saying is coming across to me as labour no longer want/need the traditional working class vote? If that's the case maybe it's the reason they haven't been in power for ages? I would imagine many of the abandoned working class voters do not jump at the chance of voting tory but at the last election felt they had nowhere else to go. Labour seems to be obsessed with identity politics which only divides the nation, I would imagine most people aren't really bothered about if their neighbours are gay, black or whatever, they just want their families and communities to do well, have decent jobs and a better life. It may not be trendy and at the forefront of dinner party talk in Islington and the student common room but that's how most people are I reckon. If labour feels these people are not worth bothering with then they will never win.

I don't think it was a case of having nowhere else to go AL within the former red wall , I believe they had nowhere else to go before 2019 and had enough of it .

They saw that the Tories shared the same cultural values , tough on immigration , anti EU , tough on law and order and throw Corbyn in to the equation and his links to the IRA plus the renegade on respecting the result of the referendum and the red wall was toppled .

It was the likes of myself that had nowhere to go and voted for Labour in 2019 , I couldn't vote Tory if you put a gun to my head but it's each to their own .

Interestingly a guy called Matthew Goodwin and his team did some extensive research in 2015 inside the red wall and presented his findings to a team of Labour advisors , he virtually predicted what was coming if Labour didn't address it , they thanked him and that's the last he heard from them .

The very next day he presented to Lynton Crosby and his team inside the Tory Party and their ears pricked up and were all over his findings .

The rest as they say is history but they had many many warnings even prior to Goodwin's research .

They did abandon the core vote and the red wall , the evidence is clear and they paid a high price .

Whether things will change is possibly the real issue post brexit .

I can't believe that there is a massive pool of potential votes out there for them and for the sake of pandering to the trendy, pc left have cast them aside. If only they could get some real labour people on board such as in the sixties and seventies.

But we have moved on. We are no longer in the sixties and seventies.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL.

So let's get down to specifics. What, precisely, do you not like about the "trendy, PC left?"

Give us some specific policies that you don't like and think we should change.

[Axholme Lion]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

The way I am reading what you are saying is coming across to me as labour no longer want/need the traditional working class vote? If that's the case maybe it's the reason they haven't been in power for ages? I would imagine many of the abandoned working class voters do not jump at the chance of voting tory but at the last election felt they had nowhere else to go. Labour seems to be obsessed with identity politics which only divides the nation, I would imagine most people aren't really bothered about if their neighbours are gay, black or whatever, they just want their families and communities to do well, have decent jobs and a better life. It may not be trendy and at the forefront of dinner party talk in Islington and the student common room but that's how most people are I reckon. If labour feels these people are not worth bothering with then they will never win.

I don't think it was a case of having nowhere else to go AL within the former red wall , I believe they had nowhere else to go before 2019 and had enough of it .

They saw that the Tories shared the same cultural values , tough on immigration , anti EU , tough on law and order and throw Corbyn in to the equation and his links to the IRA plus the renegade on respecting the result of the referendum and the red wall was toppled .

It was the likes of myself that had nowhere to go and voted for Labour in 2019 , I couldn't vote Tory if you put a gun to my head but it's each to their own .

Interestingly a guy called Matthew Goodwin and his team did some extensive research in 2015 inside the red wall and presented his findings to a team of Labour advisors , he virtually predicted what was coming if Labour didn't address it , they thanked him and that's the last he heard from them .

The very next day he presented to Lynton Crosby and his team inside the Tory Party and their ears pricked up and were all over his findings .

The rest as they say is history but they had many many warnings even prior to Goodwin's research .

They did abandon the core vote and the red wall , the evidence is clear and they paid a high price .

Whether things will change is possibly the real issue post brexit .

I can't believe that there is a massive pool of potential votes out there for them and for the sake of pandering to the trendy, pc left have cast them aside. If only they could get some real labour people on board such as in the sixties and seventies.

This is part of the problem AL , Labour MP's no longer come from the trade union movement and have done the jobs or even lived in areas where their core support is .

University graduates and in to Westminster as researchers or advisors before stepping up to MP's .

They have very little in common with the core vote and so there's little wonder they don't understand the very people they are meant to represent .

Not all of them , it would be unfair to say that but enough of them to have changed the party in the direction they did .

I think Burnham and Nanby get it but they are few and far between in my opinion .

The likes of fat ass Thornberry are still around more is the pity .

You're quite correct. Many people will not forget her sneering at the house with the St George's flag.
I don't like Boris, however I did vote Conservative the main reason being to get Brexit over the line, also our MP seems to be a decent bloke as far as politicians go. He has had a normal job and does do a lot of work for our community. It would still be a vote for the taking if they returned to traditional working class values. I can't see it happening as it seems they don't want people like me.

[Axholme Lion]

AL.

So let's get down to specifics. What, precisely, do you not like about the "trendy, PC left?"

Give us some specific policies that you don't like and think we should change.

The fact that they want to ram stuff down our throats about gays, racism and the like down our throats. I know the world has changed but stuff like that is not the be all and end all. The fact that immigration is out of control ( not that the tories have done anything about controlling it). Far too concerned with identity politics which only creates us and them, rather than just treating people as people, not a sub group of this and that. I know i'm now going to be tarred with the racist, bigot brush, which is genuinely not the case, but I suppose that will prove the point of what Embury was saying in the interview. I am more interested in the welfare of British pensioners who have paid into the system all their lives rather than looking after the welfare of bogus asylum seekers. You might not like what I say but I wager there's a lot of people who think that way and they are your missing votes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Go on then AL.

Which policies of Labour's prioritise immigrants over pensioners?

[Axholme Lion]

Go on then AL.

Which policies of Labour's prioritise immigrants over pensioners?

Letting an endless flow of so called refugees along with the costs they incur means less money for us. How any country can see it's ex service people on the streets homeless while at the same time giving council housing to young men illegally entering the country is beyond me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And Labour's policy? Last time I looked, they had been out of power for 10.5 years.

[tyke1962]

And Labour's policy? Last time I looked, they had been out of power for 10.5 years.

Which just goes to show how mud sticks .

[Axholme Lion]

And Labour's policy? Last time I looked, they had been out of power for 10.5 years.

Which just goes to show how mud sticks .

Yes, it's like following Millwall, we still get stick for stuff that happened thirty five years ago! 
The Germans were forgiven for the war quicker than we have with Luton!

[Campsall rover]

And Labour's policy? Last time I looked, they had been out of power for 10.5 years.

Which just goes to show how mud sticks .

Yes, it's like following Millwall, we still get stick for stuff that happened thirty five years ago! 
The Germans were forgiven for the war quicker than we have with Luton!

There is actually probably some truth in that statement.

[i_ateallthepies]

Yes but the Germans turned over a new leaf.

[Campsall rover]

Yes but the Germans turned over a new leaf.

Not all of them.
Not all Millwall fans are thugs also.

[ravenrover]

https://m.facebook.com/thejohncleese/videos/1870718759725920/

[scawsby steve]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

The way I am reading what you are saying is coming across to me as labour no longer want/need the traditional working class vote? If that's the case maybe it's the reason they haven't been in power for ages? I would imagine many of the abandoned working class voters do not jump at the chance of voting tory but at the last election felt they had nowhere else to go. Labour seems to be obsessed with identity politics which only divides the nation, I would imagine most people aren't really bothered about if their neighbours are gay, black or whatever, they just want their families and communities to do well, have decent jobs and a better life. It may not be trendy and at the forefront of dinner party talk in Islington and the student common room but that's how most people are I reckon. If labour feels these people are not worth bothering with then they will never win.

I don't think it was a case of having nowhere else to go AL within the former red wall , I believe they had nowhere else to go before 2019 and had enough of it .

They saw that the Tories shared the same cultural values , tough on immigration , anti EU , tough on law and order and throw Corbyn in to the equation and his links to the IRA plus the renegade on respecting the result of the referendum and the red wall was toppled .

It was the likes of myself that had nowhere to go and voted for Labour in 2019 , I couldn't vote Tory if you put a gun to my head but it's each to their own .

Interestingly a guy called Matthew Goodwin and his team did some extensive research in 2015 inside the red wall and presented his findings to a team of Labour advisors , he virtually predicted what was coming if Labour didn't address it , they thanked him and that's the last he heard from them .

The very next day he presented to Lynton Crosby and his team inside the Tory Party and their ears pricked up and were all over his findings .

The rest as they say is history but they had many many warnings even prior to Goodwin's research .

They did abandon the core vote and the red wall , the evidence is clear and they paid a high price .

Whether things will change is possibly the real issue post brexit .

I can't believe that there is a massive pool of potential votes out there for them and for the sake of pandering to the trendy, pc left have cast them aside. If only they could get some real labour people on board such as in the sixties and seventies.

But we have moved on. We are no longer in the sixties and seventies.

Moved on to where? Labour got f*cking mullered last December.

[Campsall rover]

That’s the problem, half the Labour Party are still living in the past.

Starmer now has a serious opportunity to hit the centre ground ( centre left maybe )
and win the next election. He has to modernise & to unite his party. If he can do that he could just possibly pull off a massive turn round from this last General Election.

[tyke1962]

That’s the problem, half the Labour Party are still living in the past.

Starmer now has a serious opportunity to hit the centre ground ( centre left maybe )
and win the next election. He has to modernise & to unite his party. If he can do that he could just possibly pull off a massive turn round from this last General Election.

Which half of the Labour Party are living in the past Campsall ?

Genuine question .