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Quote from: belton rover on March 05, 2021, 01:52:48 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 05, 2021, 10:53:58 amBelton, please accept my apologies for not replying sooner to your comments, I was somewhat busy yesterday and didn't visit this thread until minutes before I went to bed last night. Having said that, I believe Glyn has more than adequately summed up the situation; and for that I thank him. In fact, if there had been an announcement that everyone in the UK was suddenly £1,000 a year better off due to Brexit then my statement would have been equally true "Just look what Brexiters voted for....", but of course, you wouldn't have dissagreed with that, would you? But if you want to look into this a little deeper then when the issue was raised prior to the referendum there were only three possible options in respect of the Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland border question.... 1. The UK as a whole remain in the Single Market and Customs Union2. A Hard Border is set up between NI and the RoI3. NI remains in the Single Market and Customs Union with a border between NI and the rest of the UK, effectively in the Irish Sea. That was as true then as it is today, there are no other possible options. Yes, at the time Gove and Johnson talked about a 'technology solution', but that was just another Unicorn to fool people - such a system doesn't exist and even if it were to be developed it would have to meet EU requirements and there would have to be border checks anyway. So, let's look at those options in a little detail.... Option 1. was the sensible option as it removed all issues surrounding the NI/RoI border. Further, it also simplified all trade between the UK and the EU as in reality nothing would have changed. However, it would have been hard to sell to hard line Brexiters and, especially, the Hard Right in the Tory Party who would have argued that it meant that we wouldn't have really left the EU. May tried to include a form of it in her agreement with the EU however, this was voted down by the Tory Hard Right and, sadly, Labour! Option 2. was a non starter. Firstly, it would be totally against the Good Friday Agreement. Secondly there were many physical, cost and trade implications, (not least the Americans openly stating that we could forget a trade agreement if we wrote off the GFA). There would also need to be border checks. So that leaves Option 3. which is where we are today. That was never going to be acceptable to the 'loyalists' in NI but it was the only option left to the Tory Right. Johnson openly said that there would be no border checks with this option, (another of his lies), and that if there was any additional paperwork send it to him and he'd sort it, (yet another lie). As the effects of leaving the EU in the way we chose are now having a big effect on the people of NI it was always to be expected that they'd react strongly to it. And now we're seeing the effects of choosing Option 3. Something totally predictable, but either ignored by Leave Voters or they couldn't care less. I've posted this before, but in a discussion with friends about the three options, prior to the referendum, one of them actually said "Fcuk the Irish", falling clearly into that latter category; the others felt that there'd be another solution that would solve the issues falling into the 'ignore reality' category. I genuinely hope that the situation in NI doesn't escalate to the point of violence and bloodshed, but I stand fully by my statement in my earlier post.Thanks for your detailed reply, Not.As I tried to explain to Glyn, my issue wasn’t with the link or the facts regarding the Good Friday agreement. It was with your comment about ‘what Brexiters voted for’, which was, to me a blase comment written to antagonise, like you might do regarding blue passports or something equally trivial.If you didn’t mean for it to have that effect, then fine, but if you did, then it was in very bad taste.This is why I asked you to clarify what you meant. It’s just a shame that others thought it the right thing to do to jump on the remainers’ roadshow and answer for you. It most certainly was not written to antagonise, Belton; it was simply a question of fact to point out a failure of Brexit, and I hope my further detailed explanation was further clarification of what I meant. The issue was certainly well known before the vote. I started this thread with a view to people posting real benefits of Brexit if/as they arose. To date I seem to be the only one who has posted a 'tangible benefit' - EU companies applying for a licence to practice in the finance area of the UK, (much earlier in the thread now), yet no one has commented on that or explored it further. Perhaps my mistake was in posting the link to what is happening in NI in the Brexit Benefits Log thread rather than what I posted itself; and that in hindsight I should have created a separate thread.
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 05, 2021, 10:53:58 amBelton, please accept my apologies for not replying sooner to your comments, I was somewhat busy yesterday and didn't visit this thread until minutes before I went to bed last night. Having said that, I believe Glyn has more than adequately summed up the situation; and for that I thank him. In fact, if there had been an announcement that everyone in the UK was suddenly £1,000 a year better off due to Brexit then my statement would have been equally true "Just look what Brexiters voted for....", but of course, you wouldn't have dissagreed with that, would you? But if you want to look into this a little deeper then when the issue was raised prior to the referendum there were only three possible options in respect of the Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland border question.... 1. The UK as a whole remain in the Single Market and Customs Union2. A Hard Border is set up between NI and the RoI3. NI remains in the Single Market and Customs Union with a border between NI and the rest of the UK, effectively in the Irish Sea. That was as true then as it is today, there are no other possible options. Yes, at the time Gove and Johnson talked about a 'technology solution', but that was just another Unicorn to fool people - such a system doesn't exist and even if it were to be developed it would have to meet EU requirements and there would have to be border checks anyway. So, let's look at those options in a little detail.... Option 1. was the sensible option as it removed all issues surrounding the NI/RoI border. Further, it also simplified all trade between the UK and the EU as in reality nothing would have changed. However, it would have been hard to sell to hard line Brexiters and, especially, the Hard Right in the Tory Party who would have argued that it meant that we wouldn't have really left the EU. May tried to include a form of it in her agreement with the EU however, this was voted down by the Tory Hard Right and, sadly, Labour! Option 2. was a non starter. Firstly, it would be totally against the Good Friday Agreement. Secondly there were many physical, cost and trade implications, (not least the Americans openly stating that we could forget a trade agreement if we wrote off the GFA). There would also need to be border checks. So that leaves Option 3. which is where we are today. That was never going to be acceptable to the 'loyalists' in NI but it was the only option left to the Tory Right. Johnson openly said that there would be no border checks with this option, (another of his lies), and that if there was any additional paperwork send it to him and he'd sort it, (yet another lie). As the effects of leaving the EU in the way we chose are now having a big effect on the people of NI it was always to be expected that they'd react strongly to it. And now we're seeing the effects of choosing Option 3. Something totally predictable, but either ignored by Leave Voters or they couldn't care less. I've posted this before, but in a discussion with friends about the three options, prior to the referendum, one of them actually said "Fcuk the Irish", falling clearly into that latter category; the others felt that there'd be another solution that would solve the issues falling into the 'ignore reality' category. I genuinely hope that the situation in NI doesn't escalate to the point of violence and bloodshed, but I stand fully by my statement in my earlier post.Thanks for your detailed reply, Not.As I tried to explain to Glyn, my issue wasn’t with the link or the facts regarding the Good Friday agreement. It was with your comment about ‘what Brexiters voted for’, which was, to me a blase comment written to antagonise, like you might do regarding blue passports or something equally trivial.If you didn’t mean for it to have that effect, then fine, but if you did, then it was in very bad taste.This is why I asked you to clarify what you meant. It’s just a shame that others thought it the right thing to do to jump on the remainers’ roadshow and answer for you.
Belton, please accept my apologies for not replying sooner to your comments, I was somewhat busy yesterday and didn't visit this thread until minutes before I went to bed last night. Having said that, I believe Glyn has more than adequately summed up the situation; and for that I thank him. In fact, if there had been an announcement that everyone in the UK was suddenly £1,000 a year better off due to Brexit then my statement would have been equally true "Just look what Brexiters voted for....", but of course, you wouldn't have dissagreed with that, would you? But if you want to look into this a little deeper then when the issue was raised prior to the referendum there were only three possible options in respect of the Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland border question.... 1. The UK as a whole remain in the Single Market and Customs Union2. A Hard Border is set up between NI and the RoI3. NI remains in the Single Market and Customs Union with a border between NI and the rest of the UK, effectively in the Irish Sea. That was as true then as it is today, there are no other possible options. Yes, at the time Gove and Johnson talked about a 'technology solution', but that was just another Unicorn to fool people - such a system doesn't exist and even if it were to be developed it would have to meet EU requirements and there would have to be border checks anyway. So, let's look at those options in a little detail.... Option 1. was the sensible option as it removed all issues surrounding the NI/RoI border. Further, it also simplified all trade between the UK and the EU as in reality nothing would have changed. However, it would have been hard to sell to hard line Brexiters and, especially, the Hard Right in the Tory Party who would have argued that it meant that we wouldn't have really left the EU. May tried to include a form of it in her agreement with the EU however, this was voted down by the Tory Hard Right and, sadly, Labour! Option 2. was a non starter. Firstly, it would be totally against the Good Friday Agreement. Secondly there were many physical, cost and trade implications, (not least the Americans openly stating that we could forget a trade agreement if we wrote off the GFA). There would also need to be border checks. So that leaves Option 3. which is where we are today. That was never going to be acceptable to the 'loyalists' in NI but it was the only option left to the Tory Right. Johnson openly said that there would be no border checks with this option, (another of his lies), and that if there was any additional paperwork send it to him and he'd sort it, (yet another lie). As the effects of leaving the EU in the way we chose are now having a big effect on the people of NI it was always to be expected that they'd react strongly to it. And now we're seeing the effects of choosing Option 3. Something totally predictable, but either ignored by Leave Voters or they couldn't care less. I've posted this before, but in a discussion with friends about the three options, prior to the referendum, one of them actually said "Fcuk the Irish", falling clearly into that latter category; the others felt that there'd be another solution that would solve the issues falling into the 'ignore reality' category. I genuinely hope that the situation in NI doesn't escalate to the point of violence and bloodshed, but I stand fully by my statement in my earlier post.
How wolfie (forgive if a stupid question but waiting to head down for surgery so head not in good place
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 05, 2021, 03:59:05 pmQuote from: belton rover on March 05, 2021, 01:52:48 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 05, 2021, 10:53:58 amBelton, please accept my apologies for not replying sooner to your comments, I was somewhat busy yesterday and didn't visit this thread until minutes before I went to bed last night. Having said that, I believe Glyn has more than adequately summed up the situation; and for that I thank him. In fact, if there had been an announcement that everyone in the UK was suddenly £1,000 a year better off due to Brexit then my statement would have been equally true "Just look what Brexiters voted for....", but of course, you wouldn't have dissagreed with that, would you? But if you want to look into this a little deeper then when the issue was raised prior to the referendum there were only three possible options in respect of the Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland border question.... 1. The UK as a whole remain in the Single Market and Customs Union2. A Hard Border is set up between NI and the RoI3. NI remains in the Single Market and Customs Union with a border between NI and the rest of the UK, effectively in the Irish Sea. That was as true then as it is today, there are no other possible options. Yes, at the time Gove and Johnson talked about a 'technology solution', but that was just another Unicorn to fool people - such a system doesn't exist and even if it were to be developed it would have to meet EU requirements and there would have to be border checks anyway. So, let's look at those options in a little detail.... Option 1. was the sensible option as it removed all issues surrounding the NI/RoI border. Further, it also simplified all trade between the UK and the EU as in reality nothing would have changed. However, it would have been hard to sell to hard line Brexiters and, especially, the Hard Right in the Tory Party who would have argued that it meant that we wouldn't have really left the EU. May tried to include a form of it in her agreement with the EU however, this was voted down by the Tory Hard Right and, sadly, Labour! Option 2. was a non starter. Firstly, it would be totally against the Good Friday Agreement. Secondly there were many physical, cost and trade implications, (not least the Americans openly stating that we could forget a trade agreement if we wrote off the GFA). There would also need to be border checks. So that leaves Option 3. which is where we are today. That was never going to be acceptable to the 'loyalists' in NI but it was the only option left to the Tory Right. Johnson openly said that there would be no border checks with this option, (another of his lies), and that if there was any additional paperwork send it to him and he'd sort it, (yet another lie). As the effects of leaving the EU in the way we chose are now having a big effect on the people of NI it was always to be expected that they'd react strongly to it. And now we're seeing the effects of choosing Option 3. Something totally predictable, but either ignored by Leave Voters or they couldn't care less. I've posted this before, but in a discussion with friends about the three options, prior to the referendum, one of them actually said "Fcuk the Irish", falling clearly into that latter category; the others felt that there'd be another solution that would solve the issues falling into the 'ignore reality' category. I genuinely hope that the situation in NI doesn't escalate to the point of violence and bloodshed, but I stand fully by my statement in my earlier post.Thanks for your detailed reply, Not.As I tried to explain to Glyn, my issue wasn’t with the link or the facts regarding the Good Friday agreement. It was with your comment about ‘what Brexiters voted for’, which was, to me a blase comment written to antagonise, like you might do regarding blue passports or something equally trivial.If you didn’t mean for it to have that effect, then fine, but if you did, then it was in very bad taste.This is why I asked you to clarify what you meant. It’s just a shame that others thought it the right thing to do to jump on the remainers’ roadshow and answer for you. It most certainly was not written to antagonise, Belton; it was simply a question of fact to point out a failure of Brexit, and I hope my further detailed explanation was further clarification of what I meant. The issue was certainly well known before the vote. I started this thread with a view to people posting real benefits of Brexit if/as they arose. To date I seem to be the only one who has posted a 'tangible benefit' - EU companies applying for a licence to practice in the finance area of the UK, (much earlier in the thread now), yet no one has commented on that or explored it further. Perhaps my mistake was in posting the link to what is happening in NI in the Brexit Benefits Log thread rather than what I posted itself; and that in hindsight I should have created a separate thread.I think you are right - perhaps it was where the link was posted that got my goat - as you know, I don’t think the thread comes close to acheiving what you assure us you wanted it to acheive. If it did, then there would only be a handful of posts on here wouldn’t there?I ‘d also like to withdraw my initial comment/reaction to your post.It was an over reaction.
Cheers Wolfie appreciate that, back home now and thanks for the clarification
Brexit benefit .......... farage exit only a few more dishonest incompetents to go.
It appears he didn’t believe in it until Labour lost the election in 1983. After that he changed his mind in a futile attempt to give Labour a better chance of winning the next one, and giving himself a better chance of becoming PM.Fancy making such a huge decision, affecting millions of peoples lives, simply for political and personal power.https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/neil-kinnock-why-i-changed-my-mind-about-britain-in-europe-brexit-eu