An electric vehicle that looks like the future

[Draytonian III]

  The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.


A workmate of mine brother works at Toyota near Derby and he says that the Japanese are investing millions in to hydrogen power, they’ve even built a village/small town to test things out on, not just cars

[SydneyRover]

It's quite interesting what is happening in Japan, they are trying to decarbonise by 2050 and are pouring money into producing cheaper green hydrogen via solar installations and are developing H-fuel cells for transport and also want to use it for steel making. I don't doubt at all their ability to do this but whether they will be able to produce fuel cells that can be exported to run cars to compete with batteries is debateable.

[albie]

Green hydrogen is a good option for steel and cement industries, but much less viable for vehicles.
Long distance haulage maybe, but some years down the line.

EV will be the industry standard before 2030, perhaps by 2025.
Fast charging will help, if this story is accurate;
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/news/new-electric-car-battery-can-27231204

[albie]

Forgot to add that the economic case for EV has moved along with the rise in fuel costs.

I reckon the tipping point is here, and there will be rapid change going forwards.

[normal rules]

Forgot to add that the economic case for EV has moved along with the rise in fuel costs.

I reckon the tipping point is here, and there will be rapid change going forwards.

This doesn’t take into consideration the stupid high prices for them.
I drive a Vw up 1.0. An electric one costs upwards of 23grand! Mine cost me 5k.
I’d have to own an e up for some years before it became more economically viable. And I don’t get range anxiety.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You can get a 2nd hand Nissan Leaf for £5k.

[selby]

  From £29, 790 new and only a three year warranty Billy, £5 grand second hand?  A big hit that Billy and who would give you a warranty on second hand batteries. No thanks.

[normal rules]

You can get a 2nd hand Nissan Leaf for £5k.

A 5 grand leaf will have a greatly reduced battery capacity. And I dread to think what a replacement would cost.

[normal rules]

I see the much anticipated Vw Id buzz is out for pre order. The modern battery version of the famous microbus.
Yours FROM £57,000!!!!!!!

[Axholme Lion]

Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.

Had my new one two weeks now. It's great, don't knock them until you try them.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.

The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?

[Axholme Lion]

Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.

The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?

I don't care as long as i can fill up and drive away without faffing around with charging.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.

The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?

I don't care as long as i can fill up and drive away without faffing around with charging.

Even though the Laws of Thermodynamics says that you use more energy to get the hydrogen into a usable state than you get from the hydrogen itself? That's a hell of a waste of energy that has to come from somewhere.

[Axholme Lion]

Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.

The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?

I don't care as long as i can fill up and drive away without faffing around with charging.

Even though the Laws of Thermodynamics says that you use more energy to get the hydrogen into a usable state than you get from the hydrogen itself? That's a hell of a waste of energy that has to come from somewhere.

Isn't that also the case with charging an EV. How is the electric generated?

[Axholme Lion]

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/7/7/lithiums-insane-costs-threaten-ev-fix-for-climate-change

Oh dear...

[Glyn_Wigley]

Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.

The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?

I don't care as long as i can fill up and drive away without faffing around with charging.

Even though the Laws of Thermodynamics says that you use more energy to get the hydrogen into a usable state than you get from the hydrogen itself? That's a hell of a waste of energy that has to come from somewhere.

Isn't that also the case with charging an EV. How is the electric generated?

Generating electricity is a one-stage energy conversion only one inefficiency. Obtaining hydrogen in a usable state is at least a two-stage energy conversion so much more inefficient and uses more energy in total.

[albie]

Cheaper solar EV in the pipeline;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjoHimaqqfY

Be interesting to see how the big boys react to new kids stealing their lunch!

[normal rules]

Cheaper solar EV in the pipeline;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjoHimaqqfY

Be interesting to see how the big boys react to new kids stealing their lunch!

A £21000 price tag would appeal.
Go on their website though. It starts at 29000euro.

[normal rules]

An interesting piece.

“This machine is required to move 500 tons of earth/ ore which will be refined into one lithium car battery. It burns 900-1000 gallons of fuel in a 12 hour shift.
Lithium is refined from ore using sulfuric acid. The proposed lithium mine at Thacker Pass is estimated to require up to 75 semi loads of sulfuric acid a day! The acid does not turn into unicorn food like AOC believes.

A battery in an electric car, lets say an average Tesla, is made of 25 pounds of lithium, 60 pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds of cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic, etc...... averaging 750-1,000 pounds
of minerals, that had to be mined and processed into a battery that merely stores electricity..... Electricity which is generated by oil, gas, coal, nuclear, or water (and a tiny fraction of wind and solar)....

That is the truth, about the lie, of "green" energy.

[SydneyRover]

A battery is not energy.

[albie]

Normal Rules,

I don't know where you got that info from, but it is highly misleading.

Battery chemistry is evolving, and changing at speed.
Stripping out expensive components is the goal, to lower manufacturing costs.

Here is one example;
https://youtu.be/IBE0NADjSrE
Worth a watch.

There are others, and all these developments are falling down a technology cost curve, not a rising cost of scarce raw materials problem.

[normal rules]

They may strip out the main reliance of cobalt, which there are already concerns about terrestrial supplies, but the shift will be to nickel based, where there are concerns also.
Lithium sulphur is spoken about, but they reckon they are 5-10 years from this.
In the meantime, the earth will continue to be ravaged for cobalt, and the other precious metals needed.
And lord help us if the go ahead and mine huge swathes if the ocean bed.
A small-scale simulated mining experiment was done in 1989 to see what deep seabed mining did. “Scientists have returned to the site four times, most recently in 2015,” an article in Nature explained. “The site has never recovered. In the ploughed areas, which remain as visible today as they were 30 years ago, there’s been little return of characteristic animals such as sponges, soft corals and sea anemones.”
We have f**ked our atmosphere. We are on the brink of f**king the deep oceans too.

[normal rules]

Got an interesting email from my local Vw dealer trying to impress on me the wonder of the new VW ID range. Now I would class myself as lower middle class. I have some decent savings, investments and I am lucky enough to be a mortgage paid home owner.
But these figures are eye watering . I quite like the look of the new VW ID Bus. But take a look at their example finance package.

VOLKSWAGEN ID.BUZZ 150KW LIFE PRO 77KWH

Duration
49 months
Monthly Payments
48 × £627
Customer Deposit
£5,711.50
Recommended On The Road Price
£57,115
Total Amount of Credit
£51,403.50
Optional Final Payment
£33,398.91
Total Amount Payable
£69,216.41
Option to Purchase Fee
£10
Annual Mileage
10,000
Excess (per mile)
9.9p
Rate of Interest p.a.
7.16% Fixed

£627 a month! That’s a mortgage payment!  For a car! And after 4 years of hurt. You still owe over 33 grand! This is just for the basic model.
I don’t expect to see many of these on UK roads. Who in their right mind would pay this? Utterly ludicrous sums of money, from a brand who prided themselves years ago for creating the peoples car.

[selby]

  My neighbour took delivery of a BMW estate company car duel fuel about six months ago, the other day we bumped into each other I asked what  he thought to it.
  Great was the answer I have just come back from a golf day in South Wales it went great.
  Silly me asked how long did he drive on the batteries. "Oh I haven't used them since the first fortnight, they only do about 27miles I use the petrol engine all the time charging the batteries is a pain "
  What? that's progress banging about in a tuned up small petrol engine getting about 42  miles to the gallon and knocking the guts out of it. not for me I am afraid.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Conversely I've now done nearly 2000 miles in my new one.  Spent less than £100 on fuel so far.

[normal rules]

  My neighbour took delivery of a BMW estate company car duel fuel about six months ago, the other day we bumped into each other I asked what  he thought to it.
  Great was the answer I have just come back from a golf day in South Wales it went great.
  Silly me asked how long did he drive on the batteries. "Oh I haven't used them since the first fortnight, they only do about 27miles I use the petrol engine all the time charging the batteries is a pain "
  What? that's progress banging about in a tuned up small petrol engine getting about 42  miles to the gallon and knocking the guts out of it. not for me I am afraid.

Given it’s a company car, it’s likely he won’t pay for fuel in any case.

[normal rules]

So, with one kWh of leccy going up to 52p and the average ev taking 29.6 kwh to fully charge, that’s £15 per full charge. If you charge every night. Which I’m guessing most people would, that’s £105 a week. But every day there would be effective unused charge?
I wonder how much wastage there is charging evs for charge they don’t use?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

You don't not use it. It's the same as having fuel in the tank it doesn't go anywhere.  You charge when you need to not every night but if you did keep it full the cost would be just what you've used.

[Spud]

Conversely I've now done nearly 2000 miles in my new one.  Spent less than £100 on fuel so far.

What model did you buy? Was it worth the wait?