Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 09, 2021, 03:22:56 am

Login with username, password and session length

@vscofficial

Links


FSA logo

Author Topic: The cost of Brexit  (Read 3654 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

big fat yorkshire pudding

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 11774
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #150 on October 13, 2021, 08:39:11 pm by big fat yorkshire pudding »
"The obvious answer was to change the EU as an establishment but the EU won't and still hasn't changed."

Do you see the problem with this attitude?

A proportion of about half of UK voters wanted X. The EU with 500 million people to satisfy should have given them X.

Equally your comment actually adds to another point.  It was said it was better to be in the EU to have a voice.  You've just pointedly said there is no voice if the remainder disagrees, at what point is the scale so large that our views don't matter?  If 52% of the UK population doesn't like the EU then there has to be some admission that something isn't right. 

Also if you believe the rest of the EU citizens don't want change you're wrong, many will and granted many won't.



(want to hide these ads? Join the VSC today!)

drfchound

  • Forum Member
  • Posts: 23284
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #151 on October 13, 2021, 08:50:11 pm by drfchound »
The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.

Not Now Kato

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 2486
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #152 on October 14, 2021, 10:03:35 am by Not Now Kato »
It is as clear a case of bad faith by a politician as you will ever see. Johnson knew damn well that the deal Frost negotiated and he signed required a trade border between GB and NI with checks on goods passing over the border. It is written in the document in black and white. But he repeatedly insisted during the election campaign that there would be no checks on goods passing between GB and NI. Absolute cast iron lying.

Now Frost is saying that an arrangement that requires checks on goods is unacceptable and the agreement must be torn up and renegotiated.

Where we are is where Johnson planned we would be. It was simply about winning the 2019 GE....
 
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1448427361989431297/pu/vid/640x360/tBkIDR41-oRyz_eR.mp4?tag=12
 
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1448427581490016261

Not Now Kato

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 2486
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #153 on October 14, 2021, 10:07:05 am by Not Now Kato »
The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.

So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU.  No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious.  Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!

drfchound

  • Forum Member
  • Posts: 23284
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #154 on October 14, 2021, 10:13:14 am by drfchound »
The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.

So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU.  No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious.  Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!




I agree NNK that in general leave voters didn’t know the full extent of voting to leave.
I don’t think anyone knew.
I can’t speak for anyone but myself so can’t explain why the government did anything the way they did, maybe some of our forum politicians can help there.
I voted remain by the way.
To confirm my earlier post, the vote WAS in or out, nothing else.

BillyStubbsTears

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 28754
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #155 on October 14, 2021, 10:22:23 am by BillyStubbsTears »
The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.

So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU.  No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious.  Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!

Hound's comment here encapsulates the fundamental problem with the 2016 referendum, as I've said for years.

There was never any such identifiable thing as "Leave". There were dozens of ways in which we could have "Left" the EU, with many different levels of co-operation and integration with EU systems.

What the vote to "Leave" did was to basically say to the party with a majority in Parliament "YOU decide what sort of arrangement we have with the EU." And after the Leave side during the campaign having repeatedly played down the prospect of us leaving the SM [1], the party with the majority in Parliament then unilaterally and without reference to parliament or to the British people, decided that "Leave" meant that we would leave the SM.

And to question that process, in some people's minds, makes you a traitor to the sanctity of democracy.

[1]
Daniel Hanan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzykce4oxII&t=308s
Boris Johnson. https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/782633174035787776
Nigel Farage. https://www.facebook.com/TheDailyPolitik/videos/407312710122024/?t=0
Owen Paterson. https://youtu.be/vhb-DLqelN8?t=87

Bentley Bullet

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 15559
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #156 on October 14, 2021, 10:43:55 am by Bentley Bullet »
I understood it as leave meant to leave. No deals, no agreements, no provisos, NO GOING BACK. I expected agreements/deals with the EU to be struck after we'd left, and not as conditions of leaving.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 10:48:27 am by Bentley Bullet »

SydneyRover

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 8292
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #157 on October 14, 2021, 11:00:26 am by SydneyRover »
I understood it as leave meant to leave. No deals, no agreements, no provisos, NO GOING BACK. I expected agreements/deals with the EU to be struck after we'd left, and not as conditions of leaving.

So do you expect good faith from the government to accept the NI protocols as designed and signed off by Britain?

BillyStubbsTears

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 28754
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #158 on October 14, 2021, 12:05:30 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I understood it as leave meant to leave. No deals, no agreements, no provisos, NO GOING BACK. I expected agreements/deals with the EU to be struck after we'd left, and not as conditions of leaving.

BB.

Your post reveals a lot.

Never once were we somehow required to strike a deal as a condition of leaving. If that's what you actually think happened, after all these years of discussion, I can now see why you are so convinced that the EU are the bad guys.

And that idea that you expected us to leave WITHOUT a deal and then negotiate one afterwards also explains a lot. So you assumed that we would, on Day One of leaving, have no agreement with our biggest and closest trading partner on what basis we would continue to do trade?

Bentley Bullet

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 15559
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #159 on October 14, 2021, 12:30:45 pm by Bentley Bullet »
As I understood it we were in talks with individual countries but the EU stopped it.

selby

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 8270
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #160 on October 14, 2021, 12:33:58 pm by selby »
  We are only following the German way, sign a treaty then attack, they are notorious for it. Both us and the Russians fell for that one.

drfchound

  • Forum Member
  • Posts: 23284
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #161 on October 14, 2021, 12:35:16 pm by drfchound »
The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.

So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU.  No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious.  Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!

Hound's comment here encapsulates the fundamental problem with the 2016 referendum, as I've said for years.

There was never any such identifiable thing as "Leave". There were dozens of ways in which we could have "Left" the EU, with many different levels of co-operation and integration with EU systems.

What the vote to "Leave" did was to basically say to the party with a majority in Parliament "YOU decide what sort of arrangement we have with the EU." And after the Leave side during the campaign having repeatedly played down the prospect of us leaving the SM [1], the party with the majority in Parliament then unilaterally and without reference to parliament or to the British people, decided that "Leave" meant that we would leave the SM.

And to question that process, in some people's minds, makes you a traitor to the sanctity of democracy.

[1]
Daniel Hanan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzykce4oxII&t=308s
Boris Johnson. https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/782633174035787776
Nigel Farage. https://www.facebook.com/TheDailyPolitik/videos/407312710122024/?t=0
Owen Paterson. https://youtu.be/vhb-DLqelN8?t=87




What hounds post actually said was that there were two options on the voting slip.
Leave or Remain.
I know there were lots of options available but they weren’t available to vote on.
Anyone who says otherwise has a short memory.

Campsall rover

  • Forum Member
  • Posts: 9453
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #162 on October 14, 2021, 12:56:50 pm by Campsall rover »
You guys would love to take part in the ESS survey now called the UK Opinions Survey because we are not in the EU anymore.
If you are interested in Politics this one is right up your street.
Unfortunately it is probably not up your street. ( in a literal sense )
Currently doing this one in an area near Wakefield.  Just 15 addresses only get randomly selected in a postcode on this Study.

British Social attitudes and National Value Surveys would also be studies you guys would love to take part in.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 10:10:57 pm by Campsall rover »

BillyStubbsTears

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 28754
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #163 on October 14, 2021, 01:03:28 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
As I understood it we were in talks with individual countries but the EU stopped it.

I haven't got a clue what you mean by this.

Are you talking about us talking with individual EU countries? If so, there is no mechanism for striking trade deals with individual EU countries, because they are all signed up to the SM and CU.

Are you talking about us talking with countries outside the EU? If so, there was never anything to prevent us from discussing trade deals with them and we did. But legally, we could not sign trade deals with them until we had formally left the SM and CU.

So I'm struggling to figure out what supposed right we had that was stopped by the EU.

Bentley Bullet

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 15559
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #164 on October 14, 2021, 01:08:10 pm by Bentley Bullet »
I was talking about countries within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it.

BillyStubbsTears

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 28754
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #165 on October 14, 2021, 01:13:35 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
BB.
Countries within the SM and CU have a common approach to trading with third parties. They cannot by definition engage in trade deals with third parties. Th EU didn't put a stop to anything on this score, post-2016. This countries that joined the SM and CU freely gave up that right a long time ago. Germany or Malta are no more able to enter into individual trade deals with the UK than they are with Micronesia.

Where do you get these stories from?

Not Now Kato

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 2486
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #166 on October 14, 2021, 02:31:20 pm by Not Now Kato »
I was talking about countries within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it.

You just don't get it do you BB?  Those 27 countries ARE the EU!  You need to stop reading the Express mate.

BillyStubbsTears

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 28754
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #167 on October 14, 2021, 02:33:00 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Still, it's good to know that the man who gave us Brexit is having a protracted, very public nervous breakdown.

This was Cummings's Twitter response to people criticising him and Frost for negotiating a deal that Cummings himself has said no-one on the British side ever intended to honour

https://mobile.twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448029839571685383

Translation (cos it's like reading the rant of a stroppy 14 year old):
SW1=Westminster
GLS=Govt Lawyers
f**ked supermarket trolley is his emoji for Johnson. As in, impossible to keep him going in the right direction, keeps on swerving off line and crashing into shit.

Basically, he's saying that we should all congratulate him for doing the best job in such difficult circumstances.

The lack of self awareness of who it was who tipped us into "once-a-century constit crisis" is startling. Maybe he things we should thank him for rescuing a not-the-absolute-shittest-imaginable outcome from a f**king disaster that he personally engineered?

BillyStubbsTears

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 28754
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #168 on October 14, 2021, 02:35:21 pm by BillyStubbsTears »

Bentley Bullet

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 15559
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #169 on October 14, 2021, 03:34:32 pm by Bentley Bullet »
Apologies, I meant to say countries NOT within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it, or at least stopped us signing up to them, as you put it.

Herbert Anchovy

  • Forum Member
  • Posts: 1676
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #170 on October 14, 2021, 04:45:07 pm by Herbert Anchovy »
Apologies, I meant to say countries NOT within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it, or at least stopped us signing up to them, as you put it.

This is correct. Whilst we were members of the EU they prevented us signing (or negotiating?) with countries outside of the bloc.

BillyStubbsTears

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 28754
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #171 on October 14, 2021, 04:58:30 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
We negotiated with many other countries during the process of leaving. We could not sign any deals until we left the SM, as a matter of international trade law. Blowing this up into some nefarious action by the EU is ridiculous. We could not have a separate trade policy while we were members of the SM, which had its own trade agreements. Because, while we were members of the SM, anything that came into Britain from another country could automatically pass into any other SM country, even if it breached the terms of agreement between the SM and the originator country.

It's very simple and there is nothing at all controversial about it, but it is very telling that this idea that the EU has treated us unfairly over this has stuck in some people's heads.

ravenrover

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 6498
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #172 on October 14, 2021, 05:26:25 pm by ravenrover »
Love this tweet from HaveIGotNewsForYou

Public told to plan ahead for Christmas due to supply issues, forcing majority of men to bring their shopping forward to Dec 23rd.

drfchound

  • Forum Member
  • Posts: 23284
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #173 on October 14, 2021, 08:03:01 pm by drfchound »
Is another December lockdown on its way.

normal rules

  • Forum Member
  • Posts: 3885
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #174 on October 14, 2021, 08:41:21 pm by normal rules »
The french fisherman are on the verge of blocking ports due to issues over fishing rights.
It’s going to be an interesting winter.


scawsby steve

  • Forum Member
  • Posts: 4936
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #175 on October 14, 2021, 09:09:37 pm by scawsby steve »
One thing there will be a massive supply of this Winter is Benzodiazepine, that's for sure.

SydneyRover

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 8292
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #176 on October 14, 2021, 09:51:44 pm by SydneyRover »
Still, it's good to know that the man who gave us Brexit is having a protracted, very public nervous breakdown.

This was Cummings's Twitter response to people criticising him and Frost for negotiating a deal that Cummings himself has said no-one on the British side ever intended to honour

https://mobile.twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448029839571685383

Translation (cos it's like reading the rant of a stroppy 14 year old):
SW1=Westminster
GLS=Govt Lawyers
f**ked supermarket trolley is his emoji for Johnson. As in, impossible to keep him going in the right direction, keeps on swerving off line and crashing into shit.

Basically, he's saying that we should all congratulate him for doing the best job in such difficult circumstances.

The lack of self awareness of who it was who tipped us into "once-a-century constit crisis" is startling. Maybe he things we should thank him for rescuing a not-the-absolute-shittest-imaginable outcome from a f**king disaster that he personally engineered?

that shopping trolley emoji could become quite a thing, it could be used on the voting form too.

SydneyRover

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 8292
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #177 on October 14, 2021, 09:55:17 pm by SydneyRover »
I signed on the dotted line to buy a car once, then negotiated the price, it was very expensive

BillyStubbsTears

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 28754
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #178 on October 15, 2021, 01:01:33 am by BillyStubbsTears »
This sums up everything that has been said about Brexit and Ireland.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FlipChartRick/status/1448616714288222212

A. Pisses off Unionists and f**ks the GFA.
B. Pisses off Republicans and f**ks the GFA.
C. Was the obvious solution...unless you were trying to hold the Tory party together.

Unicorn is what Tory Brexiters have promised for 6 years.

SydneyRover

  • VSC Member
  • Posts: 8292
Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #179 on October 15, 2021, 10:44:44 pm by SydneyRover »
this has to be a positive, it will sure help with the government's effort to clean up the mess

''Deeside: New toilet paper factory could create 460 jobs''

''A new factory making toilet paper, tissues and kitchen roll could create up to 460 new jobs.

Italian-based manufacturer ICT is planning to build a new paper mill on the Deeside Industrial estate, in Flintshire.

The company has asked for the public's views on the move ahead of submitting a planning application''

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58923540

 

TinyPortal © 2005-2012