Sovrenty, what is it good for ......................

[wilts rover]

Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.

''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''

''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections

And thus do people in this thead prove Freedland wrong as they are not interested in sovereignty or even fairness - just their side winning. However that is achieved.

I once again refer you to the Holocaust Museum's leaflet on the warning signs of fascism:

[bpoolrover]

If they used pr in the last election thou tories could have had 83 more seats than Labour yet Labour and Lib Dem's could be in power is that really fair?

[drfchound]

I know of a few people who would think so bpool.

[bpoolrover]

Personally, I've always supported having a proper PR system. The current system is an outrage against the very concept of democracy. It gives all but untrammeled power to whoever can get 40-ish percent of the vote, or sometimes not even that. Even if that delivers my ideal Government, it is absolutely indefensible.

If there was a serious mass movement in the country for PR, I'd be on the streets demonstrating at every opportunity.

would you agree that the boundaries favour Labour? If so in the interest of fairness would you be on the streets supporting that?

[SydneyRover]

Hey bp, while you're here, pud is looking for a rusted on tory supporter to solve the problems of the UK.

[idler]

If they used pr in the last election thou tories could have had 83 more seats than Labour yet Labour and Lib Dem's could be in power is that really fair?

They would have only been in power because more people voted for the those two parties than voted Tory. The Tories were quite happy to share power with the Lib Dems when that coalition suited them.

[tyke1962]

I know of a few people who would think so bpool.

The Labour Party have principles Hound but if you don't like them they have others .

 

[SydneyRover]

I know of a few people who would think so bpool.

The Labour Party have principles Hound but if you don't like them they have others .

 

I would have thought you were more au fait with the tories myself tyke 

[BillyStubbsTears]

If they used pr in the last election thou tories could have had 83 more seats than Labour yet Labour and Lib Dem's could be in power is that really fair?

Of course it is because more people voted for Labour plus the LDs in that Election. EDIT: My mistake. I thought you were talking about the 1983 Election. Actually, you and I are both wrong here. Labour and the LDs only won 40% of the vote in the last election, so they could not have formed a majority under PR and in fact would have had fewer seats combined than the Tories. So it's a pointless example.

Put it another way, is it fair that the Tories had a 144 seat majority when they only won 43% of the vote in the 1983 Election? Or Labour had a 191 seat majority on 43% of the vote in 1997?

[BillyStubbsTears]

And of course I do realise it's pointless me saying this when so many contributors in here have already decided what other people think.

[tyke1962]

I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .

None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .

It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .

More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .

None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .

It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .

More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .

There was no realistic way there could  have been a Labour led coalition in 2010. The numbers just didn't stack up.

Of course, if a couple of hundred thousand folk on the Left had voted Labour rather than voting Green because Brown was no better than the Tories, and Labour had won another 10 seats, then yes a Lab/LD coalition would have been a distinct possibility. And then we wouldn't have f**ked the country through Austerity. But principles...

[tyke1962]

I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .

None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .

It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .

More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .

There was no realistic way there could  have been a Labour led coalition in 2010. The numbers just didn't stack up.

Of course, if a couple of hundred thousand folk on the Left had voted Labour rather than voting Green because Brown was no better than the Tories, and Labour had won another 10 seats, then yes a Lab/LD coalition would have been a distinct possibility. And then we wouldn't have f**ked the country through Austerity. But principles...

Aye it's always the left isn't it ?

A middle class party and voters telling us what we should think and how we should vote .

It's not worked out too well thus far has it ?

[SydneyRover]

I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .

None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .

It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .

More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .

There was no realistic way there could  have been a Labour led coalition in 2010. The numbers just didn't stack up.

Of course, if a couple of hundred thousand folk on the Left had voted Labour rather than voting Green because Brown was no better than the Tories, and Labour had won another 10 seats, then yes a Lab/LD coalition would have been a distinct possibility. And then we wouldn't have f**ked the country through Austerity. But principles...

Aye it's always the left isn't it ?

A middle class party and voters telling us what we should think and how we should vote .

It's not worked out too well thus far has it ?

What a strange person you are tyke, sneering because you assume centrist means 'middle class'

All those red wall voters are now suddenly upper class are they?

I think there may be a cure for 'jilted lover' syndrome, ask around on the forum a few appear to have it.

[tyke1962]

I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .

None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .

It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .

More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .

There was no realistic way there could  have been a Labour led coalition in 2010. The numbers just didn't stack up.

Of course, if a couple of hundred thousand folk on the Left had voted Labour rather than voting Green because Brown was no better than the Tories, and Labour had won another 10 seats, then yes a Lab/LD coalition would have been a distinct possibility. And then we wouldn't have f**ked the country through Austerity. But principles...

Aye it's always the left isn't it ?

A middle class party and voters telling us what we should think and how we should vote .

It's not worked out too well thus far has it ?

What a strange person you are tyke, sneering because you assume centrist means 'middle class'

All those red wall voters are now suddenly upper class are they?

I think there may be a cure for 'jilted lover' syndrome, ask around on the forum a few appear to have it.

You can only be a jilted lover if you were a lover to begin with Syd of which I'm not .

It's pretty much a solid fact that the Labour Party is more middle class than it's working class so let's at least find some common ground .

The problem is the middle class do not understand the working class mind .

Can't understand Brexit , can't understand the red wall flipping to the Tories .

It's a metropolitan bubble that at least in my opinion not only doesn't understand it doesn't want to understand it and sneers at it instead .

Aint in those circumstances is anybody going to even give you the time of day never mind vote for you .

How many times does the centre need to grasp economically to the left and culturally to the right ? .

Nobody cares about migrants and what ever issues they have in working class communities , they couldn't give a feck .

It's probably not what you want to hear but that's the reality .

The working class are right wing culturally and like or not that's the truth .

I'd even go as far as to say right wing culture is actually more important than left economics in working class areas .

I ain't say it's right or wrong I'm saying it's reality .

Labour would be better placed to deal in reality and forget about the old red wall if it seeks government because it ain't coming back to them  anytime soon .

They'd be better placed to stand on a joining the free market ticket with the EU .

Coming up with solutions that lead to greater production and better wages , it's neo-con approach isn't going to work with folk like me .

Play to the electorate that's more receptive you ain't a chance getting the likes of me onside or the red wall .

The party left the red wall it wasn't ever the other way around .

Johnson is fecking you 7 days till Sunday on economically to the left and culture to the right .

Of course it's rhetoric but that's where the space is and he's got it sown up .

Almost everyone is an EU fanatic within the Labour Party so make the case then .

But then you did vote for this deal but rejected the Corbyn and Ken Clarke proposal !!!

So whether you like it or not this shyte show is owned by you and Keith too .

When the Labour Party gets around to electing a leader with a pair and credibility too .

It may actually become relevant .

[SydneyRover]

Hello, you have reach the Karl Marx centre for excellence, sorry to keep you waiting we are quite busy right now.

If your call is an emergency please hang up now and ring your local furniture repair shop,
Armchairs R Us.

Please press 1 for a philosophical argument

Press 2 for advice on how to get your 'man' elected.

Press 3 for advice on retirement matters.

Press 4 for tripe recipes.

Press 5 for all other matters or hold on while we find someone to solve your problems for you.

If that's your car blocking the driveway please move it now.

[ravenrover]

Tyke just out of interest what is YOUR definition of Working Class and Middle Class

[drfchound]

Hello, you have reach the Karl Marx centre for excellence, sorry to keep you waiting we are quite busy right now.

If your call is an emergency please hang up now and ring your local furniture repair shop,
Armchairs R Us.

Please press 1 for a philosophical argument

Press 2 for advice on how to get your 'man' elected.

Press 3 for advice on retirement matters.

Press 4 for tripe recipes.

Press 5 for all other matters or hold on while we find someone to solve your problems for you.

If that's your car blocking the driveway please move it now.

……..and this poster calls others strange.

[SydneyRover]

nowt so queer as foke, hound, aye

[tyke1962]

Hello, you have reach the Karl Marx centre for excellence, sorry to keep you waiting we are quite busy right now.

If your call is an emergency please hang up now and ring your local furniture repair shop,
Armchairs R Us.

Please press 1 for a philosophical argument

Press 2 for advice on how to get your 'man' elected.

Press 3 for advice on retirement matters.

Press 4 for tripe recipes.

Press 5 for all other matters or hold on while we find someone to solve your problems for you.

If that's your car blocking the driveway please move it now.

……..and this poster calls others strange.

Unfortunately Hound it's all they have .

No ideas and completely clueless as to how to break out and free themselves from the Tories having their foot on their throat .

They could try the things they believe in I guess , rejoining  the EU perhaps .

Only thing is they voted for Johnson's deal so good luck with the credibility on that one .

Bunter's run rings round em .

Absorb that fact .

How embarrassing does it have to get ?

[SydneyRover]

A lament from a sad old man tyke

oops missed out the bitter bit

[normal rules]

Back to the op, seems the Poles are asking the same question.
On Thursday, Poland's Constitutional Tribunal ruled that key articles of one of the EU's primary treaties were incompatible with Polish law, in effect rejecting the principle that EU law has primacy over national legislation in certain judicial areas.
I thought Italy would be next to topple , but it’s possible Polexit could be next.

[SydneyRover]

possible but unlikely at this point, unless you have further information NR

[BillyStubbsTears]

I recently saw a list of Daily Express headlines from this summer alone. In various headlines, they've said the next country just about to leave the EU is (deep breath)
Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Poland, Czechia, Austria, Germany, Denmark and Sweden.

[SydneyRover]

Yep, you can just imagine the people of EU countries having a look at the UK and thinking mmmmm must get ourselves some of that.