Xmas Party

[SydneyRover]

Did Gina Miller delay brexit?

[SydneyRover]

I'll take it that it's a no then AL?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I suggest the problem is that a large percentage of the population was happy to pretend they didn't know what Johnson was really like, asong as he gave them a Brexit he didn't believe in and they didn't really understand.

There would have been no reason for them to resort to voting Boris in, had the bulk of parliament honoured the result of the referendum rather than try every trick in the book trying to squirm out of it. If they had followed the will of the people he wouldn't be there now. Don't blame brexiters for Boris, blame the hard line remainers, they are responsible.

And there's the nub of the Brexit issue, which we come back to time and time and time again.

The 2016 vote didn't determine what Brexit was! That's the whole issue. Becasue "Leave" was never a thing. it was an amorphous concept with many ways to define it - radically different ways, from a Leave in Name Only to a No Deal crash out.

May decided that Brexit meant leaving the SM and CU. Once she'd decided that, unilaterally without any discussion with Opposition parties, there was simply no way that Labour or the LDs could support the Govt (and f**king hell did Corbyn WANT to support the Govt in getting a soft Brexit through). May forced the Opposition parties into a position where they had to vote against her deal.


And then the ones on the far right of the Tory party (goaded by Johnson who rightly saw this as his path to No10) refused to support May's deal because they said it wasn't a radical enough break with the EU.

It's ridiculous that Leave supporters have convinced themselves that it was some sort of lefty-liberal plot that prevented brexit being done in 2018-19. If Johnson and Rees-Mogg and Baker and Francois and the rest had supported May at the time, the may deal would have sailed through Parliament. But they didn't because they wanted their vision of a radical Brexit.

And THAT is why your comment on The Will of the People is simply rubbish. No-one knows what the Will of the People was, because they were never asked "Is this the Brexit that you want?" "Leave" wasn't a thing. There are a million different ways we could have implemented "Leave". To this day, I'm not sure many Leave supporters know the difference between Leave in name only, A Norway deal, a Switzerland deal, a Canada Deal, a FTA, a WTO Brexit etc, etc. But these are wildly different things, with massively different implications for the future of the country. Voting "Leave" in 2016 didn't determine what our end position would be. It basically said to MPs YOU decide. And they couldn't because there were a million and one possible outcomes. No single one of which had ever been voted on by the public.

That was the whole point of the Second Ref. To say to public, "OK, this is the Leave on offer. Now you have clarity on that, is this still what you want?" But Leave voters were whipped up into a frenzy by the t**ts who are now in power, being told that this was taking democracy away from them. And you bought it. And you put this abomination into No10.

[Axholme Lion]

She took them to court. The whole shenanigans by countless people trying stop, delay, object to everything for years caused the frustration amongst ordinary people who saw the people in positions of power trying to nullify their vote. The referendum was one of the few occasions when we could actually say our vote meant something and this was trying to be taken away from us. Boris promised Brexit and that's why he won a massive majority. Do you think he would have been anywhere near the PM without all the anger and frustration caused by four years of jiggery pokery?

[SydneyRover]

She took them to court. The whole shenanigans by countless people trying stop, delay, object to everything for years caused the frustration amongst ordinary people who saw the people in positions of power trying to nullify their vote. The referendum was one of the few occasions when we could actually say our vote meant something and this was trying to be taken away from us. Boris promised Brexit and that's why he won a massive majority. Do you think he would have been anywhere near the PM without all the anger and frustration caused by four years of jiggery pokery?

Your story was that everyone including GM was delaying brexit, Tell us who it was and how they did it and try not to change the subject.

[BillyStubbsTears]

f**k's sake AL, Johnson voted against May's Brexit deal twice!

And you laud him for cutting through years of jiggery pokery!

(And in the end of course, he negotiated and implemented a Brexit deal that was near-identical to May's. Because Brexit was never ever about implementing the Will of the People for him. it was about getting him into No10.  You were just the mechanism to achieve that. Because he (correctly) judged that you'd ignore the fact that he himself blocked Brexit in Parliament, and you'd vent your spleen on the lefty-liberals.)

[Axholme Lion]

I suggest the problem is that a large percentage of the population was happy to pretend they didn't know what Johnson was really like, asong as he gave them a Brexit he didn't believe in and they didn't really understand.

There would have been no reason for them to resort to voting Boris in, had the bulk of parliament honoured the result of the referendum rather than try every trick in the book trying to squirm out of it. If they had followed the will of the people he wouldn't be there now. Don't blame brexiters for Boris, blame the hard line remainers, they are responsible.

And there's the nub of the Brexit issue, which we come back to time and time and time again.

The 2016 vote didn't determine what Brexit was! That's the whole issue. Becasue "Leave" was never a thing. it was an amorphous concept with many ways to define it - radically different ways, from a Leave in Name Only to a No Deal crash out.

May decided that Brexit meant leaving the SM and CU. Once she'd decided that, unilaterally without any discussion with Opposition parties, there was simply no way that Labour or the LDs could support the Govt (and f**king hell did Corbyn WANT to support the Govt in getting a soft Brexit through). May forced the Opposition parties into a position where they had to vote against her deal.


And then the ones on the far right of the Tory party (goaded by Johnson who rightly saw this as his path to No10) refused to support May's deal because they said it wasn't a radical enough break with the EU.

It's ridiculous that Leave supporters have convinced themselves that it was some sort of lefty-liberal plot that prevented brexit being done in 2018-19. If Johnson and Rees-Mogg and Baker and Francois and the rest had supported May at the time, the may deal would have sailed through Parliament. But they didn't because they wanted their vision of a radical Brexit.

And THAT is why your comment on The Will of the People is simply rubbish. No-one knows what the Will of the People was, because they were never asked "Is this the Brexit that you want?" "Leave" wasn't a thing. There are a million different ways we could have implemented "Leave". To this day, I'm not sure many Leave supporters know the difference between Leave in name only, A Norway deal, a Switzerland deal, a Canada Deal, a FTA, a WTO Brexit etc, etc. But these are wildly different things, with massively different implications for the future of the country. Voting "Leave" in 2016 didn't determine what our end position would be. It basically said to MPs YOU decide. And they couldn't because there were a million and one possible outcomes. No single one of which had ever been voted on by the public.

That was the whole point of the Second Ref. To say to public, "OK, this is the Leave on offer. Now you have clarity on that, is this still what you want?" But Leave voters were whipped up into a frenzy by the t**ts who are now in power, being told that this was taking democracy away from them. And you bought it. And you put this abomination into No10.

The leave i voted for was leave. No ifs, buts or pussyfooting. Leave, end of.
If as you say it was a binary choice, which it was, what else could it mean?
It's the fault of everyone who wanted a second referendum and the like that he's in number ten. You are the people who left us with no other option or we'd still be fannying around over brexit now. Yes, i voted Conservative for two reasons, my local MP is a decent person who is very good and i wanted an end to the brexit saga. Brexit is done so Boris can go now. What else could the brexiters have done? There was no other choice.

[Axholme Lion]

She took them to court. The whole shenanigans by countless people trying stop, delay, object to everything for years caused the frustration amongst ordinary people who saw the people in positions of power trying to nullify their vote. The referendum was one of the few occasions when we could actually say our vote meant something and this was trying to be taken away from us. Boris promised Brexit and that's why he won a massive majority. Do you think he would have been anywhere near the PM without all the anger and frustration caused by four years of jiggery pokery?

Your story was that everyone including GM was delaying brexit, Tell us who it was and how they did it and try not to change the subject.

If it wasn't delayed why did it take four years to do?

[Axholme Lion]

f**k's sake AL, Johnson voted against May's Brexit deal twice!

And you laud him for cutting through years of jiggery pokery!

(And in the end of course, he negotiated and implemented a Brexit deal that was near-identical to May's. Because Brexit was never ever about implementing the Will of the People for him. it was about getting him into No10.  You were just the mechanism to achieve that. Because he (correctly) judged that you'd ignore the fact that he himself blocked Brexit in Parliament, and you'd vent your spleen on the lefty-liberals.)

I don't care about Boris, i cared about Brexit. He's served his purpose now. How else could the man in the street who voted brexit have seen their goal achieved? We can't do anything about the back stabbing and tricks played in parliament. We have a vote and that's it.

[SydneyRover]

She took them to court. The whole shenanigans by countless people trying stop, delay, object to everything for years caused the frustration amongst ordinary people who saw the people in positions of power trying to nullify their vote. The referendum was one of the few occasions when we could actually say our vote meant something and this was trying to be taken away from us. Boris promised Brexit and that's why he won a massive majority. Do you think he would have been anywhere near the PM without all the anger and frustration caused by four years of jiggery pokery?

Your story was that everyone including GM was delaying brexit, Tell us who it was and how they did it and try not to change the subject.

If it wasn't delayed why did it take four years to do?

As I keep saying, this is your story, you said remainers delayed brexit, you do the work and say how and why.

[Axholme Lion]

She took them to court. The whole shenanigans by countless people trying stop, delay, object to everything for years caused the frustration amongst ordinary people who saw the people in positions of power trying to nullify their vote. The referendum was one of the few occasions when we could actually say our vote meant something and this was trying to be taken away from us. Boris promised Brexit and that's why he won a massive majority. Do you think he would have been anywhere near the PM without all the anger and frustration caused by four years of jiggery pokery?

Your story was that everyone including GM was delaying brexit, Tell us who it was and how they did it and try not to change the subject.

If it wasn't delayed why did it take four years to do?

As I keep saying, this is your story, you said remainers delayed brexit, you do the work and say how and why.

This is from one of your own and pretty much is on the money.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/07/remainers-britain-soft-brexit

[drfchound]

She took them to court. The whole shenanigans by countless people trying stop, delay, object to everything for years caused the frustration amongst ordinary people who saw the people in positions of power trying to nullify their vote. The referendum was one of the few occasions when we could actually say our vote meant something and this was trying to be taken away from us. Boris promised Brexit and that's why he won a massive majority. Do you think he would have been anywhere near the PM without all the anger and frustration caused by four years of jiggery pokery?

Your story was that everyone including GM was delaying brexit, Tell us who it was and how they did it and try not to change the subject.

If it wasn't delayed why did it take four years to do?

As I keep saying, this is your story, you said remainers delayed brexit, you do the work and say how and why.

This is from one of your own and pretty much is on the money.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/07/remainers-britain-soft-brexit

Well that seems to have done the trick AL. 
In  five years time BST will still be putting himself at risk of a heart attack with his constant bitching about Brexit.

FFS, it has been done, just get on with life, it can’t be changed.

[DonnyOsmond]

I suggest the problem is that a large percentage of the population was happy to pretend they didn't know what Johnson was really like, asong as he gave them a Brexit he didn't believe in and they didn't really understand.

There would have been no reason for them to resort to voting Boris in, had the bulk of parliament honoured the result of the referendum rather than try every trick in the book trying to squirm out of it. If they had followed the will of the people he wouldn't be there now. Don't blame brexiters for Boris, blame the hard line remainers, they are responsible.

I think you are forgetting the better deal that May had which would have served the country a lot better.

Tell us who and how and why brexit was delayed?

Gina Miller for one springs to mind. From the morning of the results coming through all we heard was second referendum demands etc. It went on and on for what felt like eternity.
I'm convinced if the result had been accepted and article 50 put into play immediately the country would be a better place now. There would be less bitterness and the Boris bomb would not have had to be detonated.

It probably would have been largely accepted if we were staying in the CU and had close ties to the SM. The fact a minority of Brexit voters wanted to cut all ties was insanity which needed opposing by people that cared about the country.

Leave won by a tiny majority, so it was crazy that we ended up with near enough the hardest Brexit possible. It was democracy at all.

And then the people running the country didn't even understand what they were doing. Boris didn't even know what a Customs Union was even as recently as last year.

[BillyStubbsTears]

She took them to court. The whole shenanigans by countless people trying stop, delay, object to everything for years caused the frustration amongst ordinary people who saw the people in positions of power trying to nullify their vote. The referendum was one of the few occasions when we could actually say our vote meant something and this was trying to be taken away from us. Boris promised Brexit and that's why he won a massive majority. Do you think he would have been anywhere near the PM without all the anger and frustration caused by four years of jiggery pokery?

Your story was that everyone including GM was delaying brexit, Tell us who it was and how they did it and try not to change the subject.

If it wasn't delayed why did it take four years to do?

As I keep saying, this is your story, you said remainers delayed brexit, you do the work and say how and why.

This is from one of your own and pretty much is on the money.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/07/remainers-britain-soft-brexit

That is absolute b*llocks from someone who has spent the last 18 months trying to pin the blame for Labour's disaster in 2019 on Starmer.

There was NEVER a soft Brexit on the table. The Brexit side fought the Ref campaign talking about Norway and Switzerland and how we would be insane to leave the SM and CU. Then in Jan 2017, May decided that Brexit meant leaving the CU and SM.

No-one who really considers themselves a democrat could just "meh" and accept that. It was an absolute travesty of justice.

If a soft Brexit, a Norway deal or similar had been on the agenda, Corbyn's Labour would have jumped at it. So would 75% of the population according to polls. But it never was on the agenda, because May knew that it would split the Tory party and she'd be overthrown.

Because, as I have repeated for five years, Brexit was never about our relationship with the EU. It was only ever about who rules the Tory party. Everyone of you who voted for Leave were dragged into that fight. And you are responsible for saddling us with this abomination of a PM.

[Axholme Lion]

The question was in or out. We voted out.
Anyhow it's not worth bickering with each other now because it's history. The point i'm making is the premiership (if you can call it that) of BJ is a direct result of the attempts the block a quick, clean brexit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL.

You are saying that you voted Leave and you knew what that meant.

Do you accept that we could have been outside the EU, but part of the SM and CU? Would that have been acceptable to you?

[DonnyOsmond]

The question was in or out. We voted out.
Anyhow it's not worth bickering with each other now because it's history. The point i'm making is the premiership (if you can call it that) of BJ is a direct result of the attempts the block a quick, clean brexit.

But the large majority of people in the UK didn't want a hard Brexit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL.

f**k's sake again. It was Johnson himself who blocked May's Brexit!

[drfchound]

AL.

f**k's sake again. It was Johnson himself who blocked May's Brexit!

[Axholme Lion]

AL.

You are saying that you voted Leave and you knew what that meant.

Do you accept that we could have been outside the EU, but part of the SM and CU? Would that have been acceptable to you?

I voted leave under the impression leave meant leave, as in a clean break. Year zero. Start again.

[Axholme Lion]

The question was in or out. We voted out.
Anyhow it's not worth bickering with each other now because it's history. The point i'm making is the premiership (if you can call it that) of BJ is a direct result of the attempts the block a quick, clean brexit.

But the large majority of people in the UK didn't want a hard Brexit.

Why did they vote leave then? I doubt they put much thought into it.

[Axholme Lion]

AL.

f**k's sake again. It was Johnson himself who blocked May's Brexit!

Yes. I'm not interested in the personalities just as long as we got what we wanted. I don't like BJ, he's expendable. He was a necessity to get the job done. It's just how the cards were dealt.
If you had been committed to brexit what would you have done?

[DonnyOsmond]

The question was in or out. We voted out.
Anyhow it's not worth bickering with each other now because it's history. The point i'm making is the premiership (if you can call it that) of BJ is a direct result of the attempts the block a quick, clean brexit.

But the large majority of people in the UK didn't want a hard Brexit.

Why did they vote leave then? I doubt they put much thought into it.

What should someone who just wanted to be away from the ECJ and open to expanding on trade terms with countries outside the single market vote for?

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL.

You are saying that you voted Leave and you knew what that meant.

Do you accept that we could have been outside the EU, but part of the SM and CU? Would that have been acceptable to you?

I voted leave under the impression leave meant leave, as in a clean break. Year zero. Start again.

So you must be really unhappy that we have left with a trade agreement and the NI protocol? That wasn't what you voted for.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, back to the party.
 This from the BBC.

PM has declared his full confidence in communications chief Jack Doyle, after it emerged he spoke at last year's event.

So Johnson has declared his full confidence for someone who spoke at a party that never happened.

Anyone want to bet that the enquiry finds he spoke at a party that DID happen, and Johnson then sacks him saying "I can't believe he lied to me about the party not happening. I'm the victim here "

[Axholme Lion]

AL.

You are saying that you voted Leave and you knew what that meant.

Do you accept that we could have been outside the EU, but part of the SM and CU? Would that have been acceptable to you?

I voted leave under the impression leave meant leave, as in a clean break. Year zero. Start again.

So you must be really unhappy that we have left with a trade agreement and the NI protocol? That wasn't what you voted for.

No. But there's nothing to stop us changing things as we move on. We always back the wrong horse. Just look at the price of gas. Why do we constantly antagonise Russia? All we get out of it is higher gas bills.
Leave the EU and NATO to their own devices. We should have nothing to do with either of them. Just look after our own back yard.

[drfchound]

AL.

You are saying that you voted Leave and you knew what that meant.

Do you accept that we could have been outside the EU, but part of the SM and CU? Would that have been acceptable to you?

I voted leave under the impression leave meant leave, as in a clean break. Year zero. Start again.

So you must be really unhappy that we have left with a trade agreement and the NI protocol? That wasn't what you voted for.

And here was me thinking that the options were just leave or remain.
People must be bleeding outraged.

[River Don]

Rumour has it that the watch words have moved on from "cheese and wine" to "rat-arsed" today.

And Dominic Cummings is promising photographic evidence. The Sunday papers should be interesting...

John Crace was superb today, describing the new No 10 breifing room as "the lying room" where the PMs aides practice their lies!

[ravenrover]

Well thats it my MP Mark Spencer has come out and said the Clown hasn't lied. Being Chief Whip he is defying the backbenchers to come out against the Clown, he knows too much about them!

[SydneyRover]

AL, read this, you are much more likely to believe it and remember it if you read and find out for yourself, although being there right in the middle and so strident about what you wanted I though you might have remembered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit