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Author Topic: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson  (Read 75890 times)

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selby

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #510 on March 31, 2022, 11:45:18 pm by selby »
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.



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SydneyRover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #511 on March 31, 2022, 11:56:08 pm by SydneyRover »
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

bored are we?

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #512 on April 01, 2022, 05:41:46 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Boris's own back-stabbing treachery has been conveniently forgotten, it seems.

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #513 on April 01, 2022, 08:55:41 pm by Branton Red »
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

tyke1962

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #514 on April 01, 2022, 09:28:36 pm by tyke1962 »
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

Which tends to happen when you get two cheeks to the same ass unfortunately .

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #515 on April 01, 2022, 09:33:04 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

I did hope, given what's going on in a true fight between democracy and authoritarianism that this sort of intellectually idle stuff that Brexit supporters might fade away.

At the last election, the Labour party campaigned in a free and open election, for the support of voters to hold a vote to confirm or challenge the outcome of another vote. And we've still got people saying that is anti-democratic.

Just grow up will you?

SydneyRover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #516 on April 01, 2022, 09:33:39 pm by SydneyRover »
Don't be so hard on yourself tyke, you made mistakes, be a man and admit them

tyke1962

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #517 on April 01, 2022, 10:04:07 pm by tyke1962 »
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

I did hope, given what's going on in a true fight between democracy and authoritarianism that this sort of intellectually idle stuff that Brexit supporters might fade away.

At the last election, the Labour party campaigned in a free and open election, for the support of voters to hold a vote to confirm or challenge the outcome of another vote. And we've still got people saying that is anti-democratic.

Just grow up will you?

The only people who needed to grow up were the ones in Parliament Billy .

The electorate gave them the result to the question they were asked .

The only people who were intellectually short of understanding that are well documented , Keith included .

SydneyRover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #518 on April 01, 2022, 10:12:22 pm by SydneyRover »
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

I did hope, given what's going on in a true fight between democracy and authoritarianism that this sort of intellectually idle stuff that Brexit supporters might fade away.

At the last election, the Labour party campaigned in a free and open election, for the support of voters to hold a vote to confirm or challenge the outcome of another vote. And we've still got people saying that is anti-democratic.

Just grow up will you?

The only people who needed to grow up were the ones in Parliament Billy .

The electorate gave them the result to the question they were asked .

The only people who were intellectually short of understanding that are well documented , Keith included .

Proof of the pudding is in the eating, those claiming success will have plenty of time to eat and digest crow as every financial statement has shown and the UK struggles without its cheap labour.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #519 on April 01, 2022, 10:16:32 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Tyke

And the Labour party hasnt questioned that decision

You and Johnson and Farage won. It's gone. It's in the past.


Move on. And now look at what real contempt for democracy is.

tyke1962

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #520 on April 01, 2022, 10:23:21 pm by tyke1962 »
Tyke

And the Labour party hasnt questioned that decision

You and Johnson and Farage won. It's gone. It's in the past.


Move on. And now look at what real contempt for democracy is.

Your quite right Billy , get elected to build on the work of Corbyn and then kick every bugga out of the party who even says social democracy .

It works two ways you know .

drfchound

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #521 on April 01, 2022, 10:25:15 pm by drfchound »
Starmer was on the bbc news this morning.
When he talked about the energy price hike he very sensibly talked about imposing a windfall tax on the energy companies who had made unforeseen extra profits and that the Labour Party would give £600 to some households to help to pay the higher bills.
A brilliant thing to say IMO.
He was then asked how the LP would help people in the following year.
Starmer then spent a couple of minutes telling us how, as the Opposition, it was his job to challenge decisions made by the government but he didn’t explain what they would do to help people beyond the £600 that he would give this year.
He was asked time and again to answer the question but appeared to get agitated and the interview was ended.
It was noticeable that he didn’t appear to have a forward plan.
I was wondering how he could attract people to vote for him if people don’t know what his plans are.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2022, 07:30:12 am by drfchound »

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #522 on April 01, 2022, 10:26:28 pm by Branton Red »
We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

I did hope, given what's going on in a true fight between democracy and authoritarianism that this sort of intellectually idle stuff that Brexit supporters might fade away.

At the last election, the Labour party campaigned in a free and open election, for the support of voters to hold a vote to confirm or challenge the outcome of another vote. And we've still got people saying that is anti-democratic.

Just grow up will you?

Billy I've no objection to you disagreeing with me and am quite happy to debate issues with you or anyone else.

I have to note however the irony of you telling me to grow up - given name calling of people you disagree with is a decidedly childish activity.

As for using the murderous evil that is the Russian invasion of Ukraine to further your political arguments on domestic issues to which it is wholly irrelevant......

....well lets just say as I've criticised you for name-calling I'll hold my counsel.

I'm lost for words anyway.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2022, 10:30:42 pm by Branton Red »

SydneyRover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #523 on April 01, 2022, 10:31:37 pm by SydneyRover »
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

And yep here you are supporting someone that spends his time talking nonsense

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #524 on April 01, 2022, 10:36:54 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Branton.

If you really insist that standing in a General Election on a ticket that asked people to support a vote is anti-democratic, I truly despair for the prospects for sensible discussion.

Insisting on that, in my opinion, devalues the whole concept of democracy.

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #525 on April 01, 2022, 10:59:39 pm by Branton Red »
Branton.

If you really insist that standing in a General Election on a ticket that asked people to support a vote is anti-democratic, I truly despair for the prospects for sensible discussion.

Insisting on that, in my opinion, devalues the whole concept of democracy.

Billy please point out to me where I've stated Labour's second referendum 2019 General Election policy was anti-democratic. I've stated on other threads that it was strategically stupid and hugely damaging to the party.

Making glib assumptions and then using said assumptions as the basis for childish name calling is hardly sensible debating is it?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #526 on April 01, 2022, 11:12:11 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Then what on earth do you mean by saying the Labour party treats democracy with contempt?

By all means point out reasons why you disagree with policies. But chucking out slurs like that, at a time when in East Europe we are seeing the true meaning of contempt for democracy...you can do better than that.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2022, 11:59:13 pm by BillyStubbsTears »

tyke1962

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #527 on April 02, 2022, 12:20:15 pm by tyke1962 »
Starmer was on the bbc news this morning.
When he talked about the energy price hike he very sensibly talked about imposing a windfall tax on the energy companies who had made unforeseen extra profits and that the Labour Party would give £600 to some households to help to pay the higher bills.
A brilliant thing to say IMO.
He was then asked how the LP would help people in the following year.
Starmer then spent a couple of minutes telling us how, as the Opposition, it was his job to challenge decisions made by the government but he didn’t explain what they would do to help people beyond the £600 that he would give this year.
He was asked time and again to answer the question but appeared to get agitated and the interview was ended.
It was noticeable that he didn’t appear to have a forward plan.
I was wondering how he could attract people to vote for him if people don’t know what his plans are.

This is the problem with Starmer and the current Labour Party with voters like myself .

They aren't brave enough to come out and say they will sort this kind of thing out in its entirety .

Stick a plaster on it at best and hope it goes away instead of stopping how the wound occured in the first place .

They are neither entirely for anything or completely against it either .

It must take Starmer at least 3 hours in the morning to decide which tie to put on .

They have absolutely no conviction in anything they do other than to purge the left of the party and something they do with relish and with far more enthusiasm than they show attacking the Tories .

The country is crying out for REAL change and all we have is a block of wood as Labour leader .






SydneyRover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #528 on April 02, 2022, 12:34:40 pm by SydneyRover »
Just a couple of points tyke, you started this thread about johnson and you're not a labour voter, but apart from that .....................

drfchound

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #529 on April 02, 2022, 04:30:22 pm by drfchound »
All threads meander from one thing to another.
Usually most of it is relevant.

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #530 on April 02, 2022, 07:11:58 pm by Branton Red »
Then what on earth do you mean by saying the Labour party treats democracy with contempt?

Leave campaigned on leaving the Single Market and Customs Union - the majority of the benefits from Brexit they claimed derived from this. Remain campaigned heavily on the economic costs of leaving the Single Market.

The main reasons, confirmed by polling, people gave for voting Brexit were 1) Repatriation of law making powers (the majority of EU laws relate to the Single Market) 2) To reduce EU immigration (not possible in the Single Market) 3) Improved global (non EU) trade (by leaving the Customs Union)

Labour's 2017 election manifesto stated it accepted the result of the referendum. Implied this meant leaving the Single Market (inc stating freedom of movement would end after Brexit) and Customs Union.

Voting in Parliament on 1st April 2019 (which typified the Labour Party on Brexit in 2017-19): -

- 78% of Labour MPs (inc Starmer) voted in favour of remaining in a Customs Union with the EU
- 71% of Labour MPs (inc Starmer) voted in favour of Common Market 2.0 i.e. voted in favour of remaining in the Single Market

a) Attempting therefore to overturn the democratic decision made in the referendum before it had been implemented
b) Voting in direct contravention of the manifesto they had stood on when being elected
c) Attempting to block, against the will of the electorate, law making powers being transferred to our democratically elected Government
d) Attempting to help retain said law making powers in the hands of the unelected EU Commission
e) Attempting to place significant law making powers in the hands of a foreign power

This is clearly showing contempt for democracy. Furthermore it is contemptible and downright unforgivable behaviour.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2022, 07:30:54 pm by Branton Red »

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #531 on April 02, 2022, 07:24:29 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Where on the referendum voting slip did it mention leaving the Single Market or the Customs Union?

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #532 on April 02, 2022, 07:29:37 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Leave campaigned on leaving the Single Market and Customs Union - the majority of the benefits from Brexit they claimed derived from this.

When did they? I can't remember ever hearing them mention it - and I was listening very carefully because I knew leaving the Single Market was the single most damaging prospect of them all.

tyke1962

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #533 on April 02, 2022, 07:45:58 pm by tyke1962 »
Where on the referendum voting slip did it mention leaving the Single Market or the Customs Union?

To be fair if it had there wouldn't have been much point even holding a referendum .

I think most leavers biggest problem was the Single Market and it's tentacles .

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #534 on April 02, 2022, 08:16:54 pm by Branton Red »
Where on the referendum voting slip did it mention leaving the Single Market or the Customs Union?

Hi Glyn.

My answer to this question is implicit in my previous post on this thread so I won't repeat myself.

May I ask re your quote "I knew leaving the Single Market was the single most damaging prospect of them all". Was this one of the reasons you presumably voted Remain?

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #535 on April 02, 2022, 09:06:52 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Where on the referendum voting slip did it mention leaving the Single Market or the Customs Union?

Hi Glyn.

My answer to this question is implicit in my previous post on this thread so I won't repeat myself.

May I ask re your quote "I knew leaving the Single Market was the single most damaging prospect of them all". Was this one of the reasons you presumably voted Remain?

I don't care what you think is 'implicit'. Leave didn't campaign on leaving Single Market at all, so everything you say after the assertion they did is based on a false premise. The leaflet they sent to everybody didn't mention the Single Market once. Hardly at the forefront of their campaign, was it?

tyke1962

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #536 on April 02, 2022, 09:25:18 pm by tyke1962 »
Well all I can say and this is personally .

I've got myself another job which I start in 3 weeks time , I've negotiated myself £13 ph which I know for a fact wouldn't be payable pre Brexit and would have been way way below that .

I'm nowt special by the way other than a ton of experience but also bear in mind I'm almost 60 years of age and hardly the grow with the company candidate either .

The cheap Labour diminishes , guess what the price  goes up .

That's how I see it personally and not to be confused with Brexit ticks every box because it doesn't .




Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #537 on April 02, 2022, 09:52:59 pm by Branton Red »
I don't care what you think is 'implicit'. Leave didn't campaign on leaving Single Market at all, so everything you say after the assertion they did is based on a false premise. The leaflet they sent to everybody didn't mention the Single Market once. Hardly at the forefront of their campaign, was it?

This leaflet you mean? https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Where clearly out of only 5 points: -

- Point 3 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Single Market

- Point 4 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Customs Union

- Point 2 is in part (trade/borders) an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving both.

Perhaps you'd prefer the Remain campaigns No. 1 pledge www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/david-cameron-sadiq-khan-eu-remain - see billboard half way down page "Full access to the EUs Single Market"

Or maybe the UK Government's pre-campaign leaflet, sent to every household, reproduced in Internet form here www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk - it mentions the single market 7 times! Please read A Stronger Economy section.

Or maybe read Labour's 2017 manifesto as I mentioned previously.

In short you're talking nonsense Glyn. It was accepted in the arguments, from both sides throughout the campaign, that a leave vote meant leaving the single market and customs union.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2022, 10:14:45 pm by Branton Red »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #538 on April 02, 2022, 10:44:59 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Branton.

So this "contempt of democracy" is democratically elected politicians, who can be ejected at any election by a democratic vote, engaging in democratic politics in a democratically elected political legislature.

I'll ask again. Do you think you are actually debasing the language here in your obsession over this. If you call that "contempt for democracy" where's your space for differentiating between politicians you disagree with, and ones who invade democratic neighbours, round up civillians and shoot them in the back of the head?

There's an obsessive zeal about the Brexiteers, that requires them to see themselves as some form of guardians of democracy. I'd thought one tiny positive of the bestiality in Ukraine might have been to shake them out of that by smacking them in the face with what a real threat to democracy, as opposed to someone with a legitimate different take, looks like. It appears my hopes were naive.

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #539 on April 03, 2022, 11:56:55 am by Branton Red »
Billy I usually enjoy reading your opinions, even where I disagree, but this line of argument is not just nonsense but I'm sorry to say the most despicable I've read on this forum.

You imply that because they're democratically elected UK MPs can behave as egregiously as they like in Parliament yet be beyond reproach as they're not as bad as Putin esp re Ukraine. Nonsense.

You imply that because Putin seeks to obliterate Ukrainian democratic freedoms an argument to enhance UK democratic freedoms (of course on a much, much smaller scale) lacks validity. Nonsense.

You imply that an argument to improve democratic rights in the UK is delegitimized by the Ukraine invasion because (of course obviously) the EU/UK are nowhere near as bad as Russia. Nonsense.

The latter is equivalent to me arguing that the possibility of a worldwide 1930s type depression delegitimizes arguments re the cost of Brexit. This too would be nonsense. The difference though is that thousands are dying and millions fleeing their homes in Ukraine right now.

You are using this human suffering and misery to justify the validity of your arguments on a wholly irrelevant UK domestic political issue. This is why this line of argument is despicable.

You criticised Boris Johnson for using the Ukraine invasion to justify his view on Brexit. Yet quite hypocritically you are doing exactly the same.

As someone who is horrified and distressed by what is happening in Ukraine I'm appalled my your line of argument.

You question my intellect and maturity. If you think your opinion is grown up intellectualism then heaven help you.

I'm offended that you have continued with this line against me despite me twice, with reason, telling you I felt it inappropriate. This continuance suggests your acting as WUM which would make you look even worse.

From your previous posts you come across as a reasonable, decent bloke however you are unbelievably wrong-headed here. I would hope the only valid point in your post is that you are being naïve.

Do not put forward this disgusting argument against my views on Brexit or any other UK domestic political issue in the future and expect a response from me. I've said my piece.

 

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