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Author Topic: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson  (Read 75910 times)

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ravenrover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #540 on April 03, 2022, 12:21:28 pm by ravenrover »
Try discussing Brexit on the Brexit thread please



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BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #541 on April 03, 2022, 01:20:55 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Branton.

I'm talking about context and perspective.

As I say, right from the off, the Brexit side has argued that they are on a messianic crusade to protect democracy from anti-democratic forces. You are far from the most extreme example of this, but you have still consistently argued the case that the "freedom" from an "undemocratic" EU that Brexit gave us was a prize worth a large sacrifice.

What has ways worried me about that sort of argument is that it eliminated the space for a sensible discussion about the benefits and costs of pooling sovereignty. Losing some freedom of decision-making is a cost. Having a higher standard of living or more collective strength in the geo-political environment are potential benefits. Finding the true optimal position on that spectrum requires detailed, nuanced discussion and thought.

We never had that discussion  over Brexit because it was drowned out by the Leave side's argument of "The EU restricts our freedom and that's that. End of argument."

I will not apoligise for pointing out that we are now seeing what a true threat to democracy is. Or for pointing out that framing the Leave/Remain debate in the Manichean binary window of freedom/no freedom was immature and deeply destructive to mature decision-making.

You compare my stance with Johnson's recent disgusting remarks. I think you are letting your passions run away with you here.

Johnson directly compared voting for Brexit and the Ukrainian armed resistance as symbols of a desire for freedom. My stance is saying that there is someone very important to be learned from the Ukraine invasion for how we frame and contextualise our political discussions. As in, if we automatically polarise every debate, we have lost the space between honest disagreement and fundamental views on humanity.

What I am absolutely not saying is that my stance is somehow comparable to the bravery if the Ukrainian people and  I  think that if you stop and reflect, you'll regret comparing what I am saying to Johnson's comments. But that's whole point of what I am saying. Everything has to be polrised in the current environment. And the whole Brexit debate (sic) pushed us a very long way in that direction with its elimination of nuanced reasoning.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #542 on April 03, 2022, 04:17:19 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
I don't care what you think is 'implicit'. Leave didn't campaign on leaving Single Market at all, so everything you say after the assertion they did is based on a false premise. The leaflet they sent to everybody didn't mention the Single Market once. Hardly at the forefront of their campaign, was it?

This leaflet you mean? https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Where clearly out of only 5 points: -

- Point 3 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Single Market

- Point 4 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Customs Union

- Point 2 is in part (trade/borders) an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving both.

Please point out where it mentions  the Single Market, or leaving it. If you can.


I don't care less about what you think is 'implied', that means f**k all. You don't vote for 'implications'...or this really the kind of democracy you claim to be such a champion of?

As for all the remain guff you posted - irrelevant. You - yes, you - claim the LEAVE campaign definitely stated that voting leave meant leaving the Single Market, so whatever Remain said is completely irrelevant. It tells me that you can't find anything from Leave saying that Leave means leaving the Single Market if you're having to resort to referencing the Remain stuff! If Leave said we'd leave the Single Market there must be tons of stuff online saying so, wouldn't there?

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #543 on April 03, 2022, 04:39:36 pm by wilts rover »
I don't care what you think is 'implicit'. Leave didn't campaign on leaving Single Market at all, so everything you say after the assertion they did is based on a false premise. The leaflet they sent to everybody didn't mention the Single Market once. Hardly at the forefront of their campaign, was it?

This leaflet you mean? https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Where clearly out of only 5 points: -

- Point 3 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Single Market

- Point 4 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Customs Union

- Point 2 is in part (trade/borders) an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving both.

Please point out where it mentions  the Single Market, or leaving it. If you can.


I don't care less about what you think is 'implied', that means f**k all. You don't vote for 'implications'...or this really the kind of democracy you claim to be such a champion of?

As for all the remain guff you posted - irrelevant. You - yes, you - claim the LEAVE campaign definitely stated that voting leave meant leaving the Single Market, so whatever Remain said is completely irrelevant. It tells me that you can't find anything from Leave saying that Leave means leaving the Single Market if you're having to resort to referencing the Remain stuff! If Leave said we'd leave the Single Market there must be tons of stuff online saying so, wouldn't there?



    “There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone.

    “The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP.

    “Agreeing to maintain this continental free trade zone is the simple course and emphatically in everyone’s interests.”

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/michael_gove_the_facts_of_life_say_leave.html

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #544 on April 03, 2022, 08:03:19 pm by Branton Red »
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 08:06:05 pm by Branton Red »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #545 on April 03, 2022, 08:52:00 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Branton. Do you want to compile a list of very prominent Leave campaigners who said, very prominently, that there was no intention for us to leave the Single Market? Or make an even bigger list of this who never mentioned the Single Market, preferring to keep voters in the ignorance that they could vote for "freedom" with no economic consequences?

You'd be at it a long time. Even before you leaven that list with a few of the deliberate deceptions from prominent Leave supporters who hinted strongly that we could be like Norway and Switzerland BEFORE the vote, then after the vote insisted that membership of the SM (like Norway and Switzerland) would be a Betrayal of the Will of the People.

May I suggest it is a bit rich of you to repeatedly accuse Labour of being in contempt of democracy for running a polucy based on giving people an opportunity to reflect on these issues in a second vote - whole never once criticising those politicians on your side of the debate who knowingly and deliberately misled voters in a referendum that was so sacrosanct, we are not allowed to challenge its validity?

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #546 on April 03, 2022, 09:02:15 pm by Branton Red »
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Main leaflet of Vote Leave - Point 3 clearly shows a leave vote involves leaving the Single Market.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Pre-campaign correspondence from the Government to every household clearly stating a leave vote involves leaving the Single Market.

Billy please find me a quote from a prominent Leave campaigner during the referendum campaign that contradicts this.

And to repeat myself I do not think and therefore have never said that Labour's 2nd referendum General election policy was antidemocratic or in contempt of democracy.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 09:16:22 pm by Branton Red »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #547 on April 03, 2022, 09:56:52 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I thought you might have been able to have a look for yourself Branton, but here's a few to be going on with.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce/

That's a very prominent Tory MEP, a cabinet minister, the bloke who ran Vote Leave, the bloke who ran Leave.EU and the bloke who funded Leave.EU.

All flatly contradicting what the Remain campaign said Leave would inevitably lead to.

As for Labour's actions, have they ever proposed anything that couldn't have been overturned in a quickly-following democratic vote?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #548 on April 03, 2022, 10:03:59 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I'd actually feel sympathy for Hannan if he wasn't such an all-round general t**t. I do actually think he genuinely believed that we would leave the EU without leaving the SM. I tmdo think he genuinely understood that it would be economic idiocy and he didn't think the Tory party would be so idiotic as to do it. Poor dear, he really didn't get that Brexit was never about the economics. It was about who would come out on top in the generation long civil war on the British Right.

The others in that link I have nothing but contempt for. They all knew damn well that we were never going to leave the EU and stay in the SM. And they set out knowingly to deceive voters.

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #549 on April 03, 2022, 10:14:51 pm by Branton Red »
Billy please re read my request - the bit in bold below is the key bit

Please find me a quote from a prominent Leave campaigner during the referendum campaign that contradicts this.

Re Labour's actions yes on 1/4/19 they voted en masse in Parliament for the EU negotiations to include membership of a) the Customs Union and b) the Single Market. In contravention of the referendum vote and their own manifesto. There was no plan under either proposal to go back to the electorate for confirmation ahead of beginning said long-term negotiations - even though both proposals contradicted the proposals of Vote Leave.

BobG

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #550 on April 03, 2022, 10:32:12 pm by BobG »
Billy, your post no.541 has got me thinking.

This loss of perspective, loss of nuance, loss of ability to discuss, are all symptoms of a malaise that is far, far wider than just the political arena. Look at the hysterical reactions on this board  to the last 18 months at the KM. Look at the equally hysterical reactions to a plethora of stuff, trivial and none trivial, on social media. Look at the press in Britain that sensationalises everything and assesses nothing. Look at the extremist behaviour of lunatics everywhere seeking to make bigger and bigger impressions. Look at the polarisation of everything we see around us. Even bloody advertising is hyperbolic today for God's  sake.

We're  f**ked. We really are. Karl Marx was right after all. 'Capitalism contains within itself....'

BobG

PS Marketing people are number 2 on my list of who goes up against the wall. Professional liars, purveyors of fantasy and of irredeemable disappointment that results in deep seated frustration, anger, envy, and, greed - to the detriment of everyone.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 12:34:59 am by BobG »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #551 on April 03, 2022, 11:14:37 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Branton.

You're choosing a very unfortunate hill to die on.

Hannan insisted from 2015 until.the light bulb came on in 2019 that we could and would leave the EU without leaving the SM.

Patterson said we would be mad to leave the SM in an interview during the campaign.

Farage made reference to Norway and Switzerland as exemplars repeatedly and very vocally throughout the first half of 2016.

Meanwhile, the Labour manifesto in 2017 said absolutely zero about a committment to leave the SM. You are putting words in their mouths by interpreting a deliberately vague document as some solemn pledge which it was contemptuous of democracy to go against.

Go and read it. Carefully. Then think about what happened in the Brexit debate between 2017 and 2019. Then think if you want to withdraw your accusation.

Donnywolf

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #552 on April 04, 2022, 05:21:09 pm by Donnywolf »
Up to 30 people were at his birthday party during the first lockdown in June it's just emerged .

Rules at the time forbid all social gatherings indoors at that time .

Bye bye Bunter .

It would be deserved but it's just another can kicked down road, delayed , gaslighted and now he is going to throw a load of people under the bus ( one with NHS will get 350 million on it probably ) and will say he gave incorrect information to Parliament because they gave him that incorrect information

Case closed they will all say


.... and just to think it took "only" the Poll Tax to finish Thatcher off
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 06:51:09 pm by Donnywolf »

normal rules

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #553 on April 04, 2022, 07:43:30 pm by normal rules »
Never mind Johnson.
The governments ex chief of ethics, Helen McNamara, has admitted to having received a fixed penalty for attending a leaving do at no10.

She is now the Premier Leagues Director of Policy.
Doesn’t look like this is affecting her career.

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #554 on April 04, 2022, 08:44:43 pm by wilts rover »
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Main leaflet of Vote Leave - Point 3 clearly shows a leave vote involves leaving the Single Market.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Pre-campaign correspondence from the Government to every household clearly stating a leave vote involves leaving the Single Market.

Billy please find me a quote from a prominent Leave campaigner during the referendum campaign that contradicts this.

And to repeat myself I do not think and therefore have never said that Labour's 2nd referendum General election policy was antidemocratic or in contempt of democracy.

You are quoting the Government's leaflets to state what the Leave position was!!!

So are you now saying that what leavers called Project Fear was actually the truth all the time!

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #555 on April 04, 2022, 08:54:10 pm by wilts rover »
Never mind Johnson.
The governments ex chief of ethics, Helen McNamara, has admitted to having received a fixed penalty for attending a leaving do at no10.

She is now the Premier Leagues Director of Policy.
Doesn’t look like this is affecting her career.

At the time she was fined it was illegal for more than two people to meet indoors for a social gathering and at those events where more than two people were allowed to gather no singing was allowed.

She was fined for providing a kareoke machine for a leaving party.

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #556 on April 04, 2022, 08:55:08 pm by Branton Red »
A1 The UK Government send a pre-campaign pamphlet to every household telling them leaving the EU means leaving the Single Market.
A2 The Remain and both Leave campaigns produce myriad campaign material the majority of which content confirms leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market. And nothing that contradicted that. Seen by surely all.
A3 Two of the key debates, immigration and the economy, are made on the basis of leaving the Single Market. Millions watch these debates on prime time TV and over the web.
A4 A clear message was given to the public, by all sides, that a vote to leave the EU would involve leaving the Single Market. To suggest otherwise is complete nonsense.

B1 "Labour accepts the referendum result". Pretty clear and given points above clear what this means re Single Market
B2 "[Labour will place a] strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market". Note not retaining membership
B3 The clincher "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union". You cannot remain in the Single Market without retaining freedom of movement of people.
B4 The 2017 Labour Party manifesto commits them to leaving the Single Market. Clearly.

On 1/4/19 71% of Labour MPs voted to leave the Single Market. In contravention of both the unimplemented referendum vote and their manifesto.

This is contempt for democracy pure and simple.

Billy you are defending the indefensible the facts speak for themselves.

PS do you think being 'deliberately vague' on the most important political decision of the age is a sign of strong democratic sentiment. A very poor argument that.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 09:26:35 pm by Branton Red »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #557 on April 04, 2022, 09:32:32 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Branton.

1) You are effectively saying that the Leave side's arguments should be taken as 100% true when they suit your argument and totally ignored when they don't. Tell me. Why should a Leave voter have believed the Remain side when it said that Leave meant leaving the SM, but not believe them when they said Leave meant massive problems for the economy or for Ireland.

2) In 2017, there was a furious internal row going on in the Labour party between the Corbynistas who wanted a red in tooth and claw Brexit, and the majority of the party who wanted a much softer Brexit. You quote two contradictory pledges that highlight that argument. You are right that we couldn't stay in the SM while stopping freedom of movement. Equally, there was no chance of retaining the advantages of the SM while rejecting freedom if movement.

Corbyn's team played a very "political" (and I don't mean that as a compliment) game of telling both sides they were on their side. I didn't like that but I understood where it came from. As a result, they obfuscated with contradictory pledges like those.

Given that, as you point out, the manifesto committed Labour to striving to retain the benefits of the SM, tell me what other option there was in early 2019 but to vote to stay in the SM. Had they not done, they'd have been breaking that pledge because there was no other option on offer that gave a mechanism to keep the benefits.

The problem Labour had was having a leadership that fundamentally didn't represent the views of either the membership or the Parliamentary party on that issue. So they did what politicians always do in difficult situations. They obfuscated and gave individual MPs room to interpret the manifesto as they saw fit. That's happened since time immemorial.


In any case, manifesto pledges are  snapshot of where a party is at a moment in time. Then things change. Was it "contempt for democracy" for Sunak to out up NI after the 2019 manifesto said they wouldn't? Was it an affront to democracy for the LDs to say they would not put up tuition fees, then do so?

Not in my book. Those were political decisions made due to particular circumstances. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I don't see them pressaging the collapse of our system.

Because, if you think that's unacceptable, don't vote for them next time. That's how democracy works. Which is why screaming "contempt for democracy" is an emotional, overblown response to what is actually political decisions that you don't like, but ones made by democratically elected representatives, who can be removed democratically.

SydneyRover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #558 on April 04, 2022, 10:59:57 pm by SydneyRover »
Never mind Johnson.
The governments ex chief of ethics, Helen McNamara, has admitted to having received a fixed penalty for attending a leaving do at no10.

She is now the Premier Leagues Director of Policy.
Doesn’t look like this is affecting her career.

At the time she was fined it was illegal for more than two people to meet indoors for a social gathering and at those events where more than two people were allowed to gather no singing was allowed.

She was fined for providing a kareoke machine for a leaving party.

A fish rots from the head, as with most if not all groups those in the 'family' take their cues from the head, it's why the leader of a criminal enterprise usually receives a tougher sentence.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #559 on April 05, 2022, 03:12:29 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation

Yeah, someone who was an International Trade Officer with Customs for twenty years obviously knows nothing about the Single Market.

I certainly don't need to be 'educated' about it by a berk like you.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2022, 03:22:37 pm by Glyn_Wigley »

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #560 on April 05, 2022, 06:13:00 pm by Bentley Bullet »
It's quite pleasant on here when I'm not involved!

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

SydneyRover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #561 on April 06, 2022, 06:28:48 am by SydneyRover »
Official photo taken of lockdown party at #10 released

https://www.hisour.com/three-historic-rooms-10-downing-street-16209/

BobG

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #562 on April 06, 2022, 11:10:33 am by BobG »
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation

Yeah, someone who was an International Trade Officer with Customs for twenty years obviously knows nothing about the Single Market.

I certainly don't need to be 'educated' about it by a berk like you.

Collapse of stout party....

BobG

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #563 on April 06, 2022, 12:27:03 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation

Yeah, someone who was an International Trade Officer with Customs for twenty years obviously knows nothing about the Single Market.

I certainly don't need to be 'educated' about it by a berk like you.

Collapse of stout party....

BobG

Can't answer a complete repudiation of your bullshit? Then flounce off in  huff! :silly:

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #564 on April 06, 2022, 01:08:50 pm by wilts rover »
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation

Yeah, someone who was an International Trade Officer with Customs for twenty years obviously knows nothing about the Single Market.

I certainly don't need to be 'educated' about it by a berk like you.

Collapse of stout party....

BobG

Can't answer a complete repudiation of your bullshit? Then flounce off in  huff! :silly:

He's a nice lad Branton (I know him vaguely) but as he has shown here anyone can let themselves be brainwashed if they want to.

Which is the objective truth at the heart of this thread. Do you want to be governed by a government who are judged by scruitny of an open factual discussion of their actions - or do you just want to believe what they want you to believe and make the facts suit?

ravenrover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #565 on April 06, 2022, 03:40:42 pm by ravenrover »
Word of the day is 'snollygoster' (19th century): an unprincipled person in office who is motivated by personal rather than public gain.

BobG

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #566 on April 06, 2022, 03:57:12 pm by BobG »
We must all make it our civic duty to use 'snollygoster', with explanation, at least twice a day. What a glorious word.

BobG

scawsby steve

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #567 on April 06, 2022, 05:38:09 pm by scawsby steve »
Word of the day is 'snollygoster' (19th century): an unprincipled person in office who is motivated by personal rather than public gain.

Bloody hell, Raven, that means every single politician is a snollygoster, seeing as there's not a single one of them that does it for nothing.

ravenrover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #568 on April 06, 2022, 09:16:53 pm by ravenrover »
Can't disagree there SS but what a cracking word eh!

Branton Red

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #569 on April 07, 2022, 08:29:39 pm by Branton Red »

Can't answer a complete repudiation of your bullshit? Then flounce off in  huff! :silly:

Glyn you claim you've been a Customs official for 20 years this suggests you're an adult; yet you resort to name calling the preserve of the playground which suggests you're a child.

Saying the below leaflet doesn't say the words "Single Market" isn't a complete repudiation of my points; it just suggests you're a child of reading age.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

As an expert in the field you should be aware that you can't abandon freedom of movement of labour and stay in the Single Market. Therefore in Point 3 Leave are proposing leaving the Single Market.

You should also be aware that you can't make your own trade deals and stay in the Customs Union. Therefore in Point 4 Leave are proposing leaving the Customs Union.

Now can you prove you're an adult and either accept these facts or alternatively counter them with reasoned views of your own without descending into silly aggression, swearing, name calling or just making simplistic generic points? Try actually reading and then considering my words first before replying.

 

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