Gas Prices

[River Don]

The Tories aren't making people poorer. It's circumstances. The Labour Party aren't making people poorer it's circumstances.

The question is, who is best place to improve matters?

Given the circumstances..l think it's grim.

But given the Labour Party always want to invest to kick start growth, it might be a better bet... Unless the Russians are still clamping down on everything.

Rock and a hard place.

[drfchound]

I think what people worry about with Labour RD is their lack of a viable plan, lack of proper leadership and the financial mess they usually leave behind when they lose power.
I’m not so sure they have the ability to win a GE with all the division in their Party anyway so we appear to be stuck with what we have now.

[River Don]

Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.

This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.

My opinion is in both cases, the UK government didn't cause it. I don't think the Tories dealt with the fallout of 2008 very well. I don't think we will cope now very well.

[drfchound]

Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.

Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.


Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.
[/quote]


I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.


It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.

[River Don]

Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.




Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.


Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.

I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.


It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.

The UK is no longer a significant enough economy. Our governments no longer apply significant pressure on world markets.we just get battered in the storms.

[drfchound]

Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.




Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.


Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.

I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.


It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.

The UK is no longer a significant enough economy. Our governments no longer apply significant pressure on world markets.we just get battered in the storms.

If that is true RD do you think the decline has been wholly over the last twelve years?

[River Don]

Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.




Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.


Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.

I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.


It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.

The UK is no longer a significant enough economy. Our governments no longer apply significant pressure on world markets.we just get battered in the storms.

If that is true RD do you think the decline has been wholly over the last twelve years?

Much longer.

I guess since about 1914.

That was when we reached peak coal.

[drfchound]

Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.




Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.


Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.

I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.


It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.

The UK is no longer a significant enough economy. Our governments no longer apply significant pressure on world markets.we just get battered in the storms.

If that is true RD do you think the decline has been wholly over the last twelve years?

Much longer.

I guess since about 1914.

That was when we reached peak coal.

I thought as much (perhaps not as far back as 1914 if I’m being honest) and yet there are people on here who suggest that it has all been down to this government.

[River Don]

The UK is an island built on coal surrounded by fish...

But sometime just before the first world war digging out coal began to become uneconomic.

By the 1970s it was completely untenable. But then they discovered oil in the North sea.

[SydneyRover]

And to complete the story ....... instead of using the oil money to revive the old industrial areas and finance new industries what did the government of the day do with it?

[danumdon]

IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.

I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.

When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.

[SydneyRover]

Maybe they didn't fancy working in the city of london as financiers.

''Oil wealth key to Thatcher's legacy, analysts say

According to official figures, UK government revenues from oil and gas jumped from £565 million in the 1978-79 tax year to £2.3 billion in 1979-80, and rose to over £12 billion in 1984-85''

“[Tax revenue from North Sea oil and gas] has certainly been a major boost for the UK,” Jason Kenney, Head of pan-European oil and gas Equity Research at Banco Santander told FRANCE 24 on Wednesday.

''The tax revenues from oil have proved to be a “real windfall,” he said.

Part of Thatcher’s disputed legacy is her policy of closing state-run businesses she judged unprofitable. In 1984, her government unveiled a plan to close 20 pits with the loss of 20,000 jobs.

Many observers have drawn an unfavourable comparison between the UK’s use of its oil wealth, and that of its North Sea neighbour Norway.

“Norway got the same benefit, it put its money away, it has this enormous sovereign wealth fund,” the chief political commentator of the Financial Times, Philip Stephens, said in a Tuesday audio broadcast on the newspaper’s website''

“We spent it,” he said''

https://www.france24.com/en/20130417-north-sea-oil-tax-boon-for-margaret-thatcher


It's a lazy argument to blame the victims.

Anything like these enterprise zones?

''Enterprise zones 'failed to deliver' jobs boost in England''

''A multimillion-pound government policy to boost job creation has failed to deliver, research has revealed.

In 2011, the government announced "enterprise zones" in England to try to improve economic growth, forecasting 54,000 new jobs between 2012 and 2015.

But BBC-commissioned research found by 2017 only 17,307 jobs had been created in 24 zones around England - and in two areas the number of jobs had fallen.

The government said it had created 38,000 jobs since 2012.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-48856440

Let's not get into another debate about miners if you have factual data by all means post it.

[ravenrover]

Eon say 20% of their customers are currently in fuel poverty. 20%!

Let that sink in and then understand, they are expecting that figure to go up to 40% in the winter.

20% of 8 million customers

Well yes but isn't that likely to be a similar percentage across the board?

Not meant as a criticism just adding another figure to clarify what the 20% of customers is. Far too many.

[rich1471]

Eon say 20% of their customers are currently in fuel poverty. 20%!

Let that sink in and then understand, they are expecting that figure to go up to 40% in the winter.

20% of 8 million customers

Well yes but isn't that likely to be a similar percentage across the board?

Not meant as a criticism just adding another figure to clarify what the 20% of customers is. Far too many.

Think they have 8 million customers ,so about 1.6 million in fuel poverty just from Eon

[River Don]

Here comes the emergency budget, just in time to deflect attention from the Sue Gray report.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10850825/Rishi-Sunak-announce-large-package-measures-combat-cost-living-crisis-Thursday.html

[albie]

The ability of renewables to develop in the energy crisis is being artificially restricted by government;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/24/limits-on-renewables-will-keep-uk-energy-bills-higher-this-winter

Let's hope that the emergency budget removes these restrictions.
The only reason that you would keep them in place is to try to make a case for unaffordable nuclear, 15 years away from coming into production.

[danumdon]

The ability of renewables to develop in the energy crisis is being artificially restricted by government;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/24/limits-on-renewables-will-keep-uk-energy-bills-higher-this-winter

Let's hope that the emergency budget removes these restrictions.
The only reason that you would keep them in place is to try to make a case for unaffordable nuclear, 15 years away from coming into production.

Albie, what do you consider, all things taken into account do you think would be the total percentage of the enegey market for renewables in the near to mid term, and what would be the best type of energy to fill any voids. What would the balance be longer term?

I also noticed that the link you put up states that "if the 12GW the government is planning had been available last winter, energy bills would have been about £100 lower for the average household." would this have balanced out the "Levies on bills that support energy efficiency and renewables are falling, from £172 last year, or 15% of fuel bills, to about £153 on bills, according to recent figures from Ofgem."

[albie]

DD,

Difficult question to answer, as it depends upon the support mechanisms in place under the control of government.
How these change will impact the viability of different strategies.

I heard the boss of OFGEM today talking about the coming £800 rise in the price cap as though it was inevitable, not a political choice....absolute nonsense!

The UK has a big advantage in not being dependent on Russian gas.
Our disadvantage is that we have little gas storage, having stupidly decommissioned capacity in 2017.

We use imported gas to generate electricity, and export to international markets if prices make that attractive. The UK could choose to prioritise domestic self sufficiency, but that does not sit easily with the private ownership model for the energy sector in the UK. If these energy interests see higher returns on international markets, that is where they will go.

So any solution depends upon how quickly we look to replace gas with electricity, and what is the most cost effective method to produce that electricity.
Here is a guide;
https://renewextraweekly.blogspot.com/2022/05/uk-energy-policy-messes.html

What is clear is that both main parties have a very weak understanding of the energy economy.
Both steer clear of the root and branch review required.
In practice, this means political considerations outweigh effective technical solutions.

In short, I would say electrify all areas of the economy that can transfer from fossil fuels urgently, and maximise the production of that electricity from renewables with back up storage.

All possible with existing technology and at the lowest cost per unit produced, to keep bills as low as possible.

[roversdude]

IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.

I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.

When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.

What a condescending post - you obviously know very little about what happened. The enterprise zones employed a handful of people on a site where formerly a couple of thousand were employed. Not to mention all the support industries that collapsed.
Yes redundancy payments were given but they don’t last forever.

[BillyStubbsTears]

IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.

I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.

When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.

What a condescending post - you obviously know very little about what happened. The enterprise zones employed a handful of people on a site where formerly a couple of thousand were employed. Not to mention all the support industries that collapsed.
Yes redundancy payments were given but they don’t last forever.

Amen.

My uncle and cousin were chucked out of work when Yorkshire Main was shut down. My uncle spent the next 5 years shuttling up and down the country, working on the Channel Tunnel and slogging back home every other weekend. My cousin worked as a financial adviser then re-trained as a prison officer.

The redundancy payments were the bare minimum those lads could be offered for careers and communities that were destroyed for political ends. Who the f**k has the right to tell them what they should and shouldn't have done with those payments.

[roversdude]

I worked at Yorkshire Main then transferred to Markham Main - ended up re training and I’ve had a pretty decent career - still miss the craic with the lads though.
There were a lot of lads didn’t even get chance to spend their redundancy, never been to as many funerals when the pits first shut

[Filo]

IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.

I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.

When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.

The enterprise Zones were funded from the European Social fund, no longer available, Stainforth missed out on those funds because they had a working pit in Hatfield Colliery, even though the majority of the workforce came from miles around, there were about half a dozen people from Stainforth worked at the pit in its later years, Stainforth and it’s mining community got nothing at all to replace lost jobs

[danumdon]

IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.

I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.

When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.

What a condescending post - you obviously know very little about what happened. The enterprise zones employed a handful of people on a site where formerly a couple of thousand were employed. Not to mention all the support industries that collapsed.
Yes redundancy payments were given but they don’t last forever.

I'm struggling to see what was condescending about the post, i mentioned some facts, redundancy was paid, enterprise zones were set up, training and support was offered, some took advantage of it, some didn't, some spent their money, some invested in their future.all factual so nothing to argue about.

So whats condescending about posting the above? maybe you were someone involved and didn't do too well out of it?

[danumdon]

IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.

I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.

When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.

What a condescending post - you obviously know very little about what happened. The enterprise zones employed a handful of people on a site where formerly a couple of thousand were employed. Not to mention all the support industries that collapsed.
Yes redundancy payments were given but they don’t last forever.

Amen.

My uncle and cousin were chucked out of work when Yorkshire Main was shut down. My uncle spent the next 5 years shuttling up and down the country, working on the Channel Tunnel and slogging back home every other weekend. My cousin worked as a financial adviser then re-trained as a prison officer.

The redundancy payments were the bare minimum those lads could be offered for careers and communities that were destroyed for political ends. Who the f**k has the right to tell them what they should and shouldn't have done with those payments.

BST, when you've got down off that ridiculously high horse of yours maybe you could explain to me where anyone has said the above?

Maybe ridiculously drunk with your raving socialist outrage?

[roversdude]

You know so little sir, but please continue living in your parallel universe

[normal rules]

Interesting couple of months coming up. Experts predict Russia’s gas storage will be full by July. At that point they will have to look at shutting down the wells in Siberia where the gas comes from. All 12,000 of them. It takes time to shut them down. And they are difficult to restart as the equipment is old.

[River Don]

That's a very interesting point NR. I hadn't considered it, shutting down and reopening wells is a very difficult task.

So Russia is filling storage, whilst the EU is running on fumes.

Talk about brinkmanship. Still, there is urgency on both sides to resume business as usual.

[normal rules]

And talking of storage. Off gas topic I know,but two months ago it was forecast that Russia would run out of cloud storage by about now, as the US had cut off its access to  the cloud. This is a country not blessed with being awash with data storage centres in the first place either.

[danumdon]

You know so little sir, but please continue living in your parallel universe

So you can’t answer the question, but I’m the one in the parallel universe?

[drfchound]

I thought by now that there would have been some posts about the government’s announcement about the fuel payment assistance measures.
To me it looks like there is a significant amount of help, with the poorest households set to receive around £1200.
Pensioner households to receive an additional £300 to add to their winter fuel allowance.
The £200 allowance in October now doubled to £400 and no longer repayable over five years.
I would be interested to hear from the posters who said they didn’t want the £200 loan, because it was repayable.
Do they still not want the £400 allowance which is not repayable?
Overall I reckon Sunak has done the country proud and so far it seems that the tv pundits think the same.