Maybe this will help restore faith and pride in the police.

[normal rules]

Are you and hound a double act?

''At the present time, police officers have no powers to work in each other's jurisdiction, and both the Northern Ireland Office and the Minister of Justice have stated that there are no plans to allow them to do so''

And yet some of us have deployed to help police g8 summits in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland. And will continue to do so.

[SydneyRover]

Can I ask if you have read the report yet NR? secondly the report covers England and Wales, can you explain under what circumstance these deployments accurred?

[normal rules]

I’d be lying if I said I read every word of the 100 odd page report.
But I have looked at the main recommendations, conclusions and salient points.
Everyone, every single person working within policing in the uk currently would say the number one reason policing is where it is currently is down to lack of staff. Across the board. In every department.
Yet that report makes not one single recommendation based around this. There is one single recommendation that talks of uplift in Neighbourhood policing . And that’s it.
And for that reason I cannot take any such report that seriously. Uplift usually means they Rob Peter to pay Paul and staff are taken from another area to fill the political void.
Other blinding issues are direct entry to detective roles. Those that know , are fully aware this may sound attractive, but the reality is that it doesn’t work. To be a good detective you should be a good cop first, and to be a good cop you need to get time in doing the basics. But what do I know.
The whole licensing issue is a sound bite imho. Cops do annual performance reviews now. Any licensing scheme would be the same process re badged.


Policing across the uk for mutual aid is done via memorandum of understanding that policing in differing parts entails slight changes in PACE for example. Arrest policies in Scotland are slightly diff to say England.
English cops that went to Auchterader for example to police the G8 summit at Gleneagles some years ago were sworn in as Scottish constables for the duration of the deployment. I know because I was one of them.

[Sprotyrover]

My lad went to Northern Ireland , they had a PSNI officer with them to keep them out of harms way and deal with local stuff. Having said that they managed to Destroy their Landrovers every single day, PSNI have a huge Garage at Belfast Airport they would drive in there in their wrecked one and be given the keys to a newly refurbished one for the following day they had hundreds stored ready for use!

[SydneyRover]

Firstly glad to see you ignored hound, he hasn't made a single sensible comment on this thread to date.

Maybe you do and I missed it, but I think you need to look at the problems within the police from the pov of the public rather than the police themselves. Lack of staff goes straight to the feet of the government that they allowed the service to be short of 20,000 and then try to bluff through with a media campaign says a lot about them. A lot of your earlier comments are whataboutery so I suggest you do read the report in full. The public themselves it appears have genuine misgiving about this governments ability to sort it out. While police can be guilty of serious misconduct and remain on the force there are serious problems, can you suggest why this happens and how to fix it?

[selby]

  Syd, go to bed, that single brain cell of yours must be tired.

[SydneyRover]

  Syd, go to bed, that single brain cell of yours must be tired.

I love it you and hound stick up for each other, man bro.

[normal rules]

I am a taxpayer, and rely on the police too. I didn’t get any special treatment when I’ve been a victim of crime. Quite the opposite.
I got burgled some years ago and had to wait some time before I got any sort of response so I’m fully aware of shortcomings in policing.

The police are hell bent as an organisation of being representative of the society they serve.
It should come as no surprise then that they unwittingly end up employing not just the good, but the bad and the ugly too.
Every single walk of life and profession has bad eggs. The NHS, the church, the media, celebrities, politics the list goes on and on and on.
Until society rids itself of all of them, which isnt going to happen, then the bad eggs will sadly continue to infiltrate every walk of life, including policing.
Police in Australia will be no different I suspect.
Cases of serious misconduct should be viewed on the merits of each instance.
I’ve never been subject to such so can’t comment.
I know in my local force misconduct hearing are held in a public arena
And so are subject to full transparency and scrutiny.

My final word on this is that despite their public failings, I think the Police, certainly in my area, given the shortage of funding and staffing, do a good job. There are some outstanding public servants out there, both uniformed and staff that go over and above every single day. The actions of the few sadly spoil it for the many.
Policing does need to change, to fight the new threats in crime . But they need many many more bums on seats to do this. And a lot more money spent doing so.
And there will always be bad people out there, in policing and otherwise.

I won’t be wasting my time reading the full report. I’ve seen similar over the years.
It will change nothing. Don’t take my word for it though.
Come back in five years and we can revisit this if you like.

[SydneyRover]

This debate isn't about any other profession a they do not carry the special powers that police have. There is absolutely no room for bad eggs within the police.

Cases of misconduct have been treated on their merits how else could they be investigated and yet a proportion of them remain in the force which led directly to the resignation of Dick.

Yes the actions of a few do spoil it for the many and it's why they need to go.

And you can't be arsed to read the report.

[normal rules]

Not wanting to waste my time and “can’t be arsed” are at differing ends of the interest spectrum SR. Careful, your colours are beginning to show.

And if you don’t think corrupt politicians have power, or influential celebrities then you may need to have a rethink.
Consider the case of Epstein in relation to power.

But some are just hell bent on police and their failings.

[SydneyRover]

Not wanting to waste my time and “can’t be arsed” are at differing ends of the interest spectrum SR. Careful, your colours are beginning to show.

And if you don’t think corrupt politicians have power, or influential celebrities then you may need to have a rethink.
Consider the case of Epstein in relation to power.

But some are just hell bent on police and their failings.

The force needs root and branch reform so that those that want to serve their community can without fear or favour, there needs to be recruitment to achieve 50% women with all members of the community represented, get rid of the blokey culture, get rid of the 'bad eggs'

If you do read the report ask yourself why so much work needs to be done?

I don't think you could trust this present government to implement it.

[normal rules]

In fact, I’ve wondered why police and policing is more often the target of the lefts opporbrium than their support, of which you SR are clearly a fully paid up member metaphorically speaking.

The fates of most public sector workers, doctors, nurses dinner ladies social workers serve as rallying cries on strikes and rallies. Something SR you are probably very familiar with.

George Orwell said this:

“I have no particular love for the idealised worker, but when I see an actual flesh and blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask which side am on.”

This comment I believe still stands true for those on the left that fail to see police officers as just another public sector worker.
Police deal every day with the people many on the left stand up for . Embattled working class communities, vulnerable adults and children and lots more.
They do a job which is demonstrably made harder during recession and public sector cuts.  Faced sizeable cuts is staff and real time pay cuts. Huge hikes in pension contributions.
Police have flaws. Serious ones. They are, and should be subject to considerable scrutiny. They have been and will continue to be. Some bad eggs have and will continue to slip through the cracks.

They are missing solidarity from many on the left though that is afforded to their compatriots. They have no industrial rights.
I suspect I waste my breath though.
For many, the police will always be the police, and be disliked and even despised for it.

[SydneyRover]

This is what I wrote about the report in an earlier comment

................. reforms that attempt to bring the police service into this century. It would increase numbers, training, diversity, cognitive diversity, upgrade technology, put emphasis in the areas of greatest need, champion crime prevention, community policing and much much more ...............

do you disagree with any of it NR?

[normal rules]

Your ref to “blokey” culture sums up your current knowledge.
There are shifts in my local town made up of just female officers.

At our headquarters we now have weekly menopause cafes.
The whole hq building was lit up for a whole week with rainbow lights to promote lgbtq week.
We have more police associations for minority groups now than you can shake a stick at. Lincs police ACC is currently a female officer.
I’d argue white married male officers are now a minority themselves.
We have polish, latvian and Lithuanian officers and staff to serve some of our local communities.
There still more to do,  but times are a changing. Policing is catching up.
You are out of touch chap if you think policing these days is “blokey” or not diverse.

[SydneyRover]

This is what I wrote about the report in an earlier comment

................. reforms that attempt to bring the police service into this century. It would increase numbers, training, diversity, cognitive diversity, upgrade technology, put emphasis in the areas of greatest need, champion crime prevention, community policing and much much more ...............

do you disagree with any of it NR?

[SydneyRover]

The data shows that:

''White people made up 92.7% of police officers at the end of March 2020, and 86.0% of the general population at the time of the 2011 Census

Asian people made up 3.1% of police officers, and 6.8% of the general population

people with Mixed ethnicity made up 2.2% of police officers, and 2.2% of the general population

Black people made up 1.3% of police officers, and 3.3% of the general population

people from the Other ethnic group made up 0.8% of police officers, and 1.7% of the general population''

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/police-workforce/latest

''Women in policing in the United Kingdom began as early as December 1915 amidst the First World War.[1] As with other countries, police forces in the UK were entirely male at the start of the 20th century. Their numbers were limited for many decades, but have gradually increased since the 1970s. In England and Wales, 31.2% (40,319) of police officers were female on 31 March 2020. Previously, women police made up 28.6% in March 2016,[2]and 23.3% in 2007.[2] Women also make up a majority of the non-sworn police staff. Notable women in the police forces include Cressida Dick, the former Commissioner (chief) of the Metropolitan Police Service.

Until 1999, women in the police force had their rank title prefixed with the word "Woman", or the letter W in abbreviations (e.g. "WPC" for Constable); this construction is still sometimes used in the press and by individuals.[3][4] From 1919 until January 1993, female officers' warrant numbers also came from a different series than male officers'.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_policing_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Their%20numbers%20were%20limited%20for,the%20non%2Dsworn%20police%20staff.

facts R US

[normal rules]

This is what I wrote about the report in an earlier comment

................. reforms that attempt to bring the police service into this century. It would increase numbers, training, diversity, cognitive diversity, upgrade technology, put emphasis in the areas of greatest need, champion crime prevention, community policing and much much more ...............

do you disagree with any of it NR?

Let’s look at your points individually.

1. Increase numbers. Cuts have been so deep and so drastic over recent years that they will take years to recover. Cops are still retiring year on year and retention and recruitment is becoming increasingly difficult.who wants to be a cop these days when they get battered by everyone, everywhere metaphorically and literally for 30-40 k a year?

2. Training. Every week there is an online this or that to do because some boffin in the home office has a bright idea. Cops that are training are not being cops. There is a balance to be had. Lack of staff compounds this issue.

3 diversity. This is being addressed. Police forces are matching their staff with the communities they serve as best they can.work in progress. But there are not enough cops To increase the diverse pool.

4. Upgraded tech.  Change with IT within police forces is always slow. Because there is so much cost involved with hardware and infrastructure and licences. Police will always be playing catch up in this area IMO.

5. Right staff right place right training. This has always been strived for. It’s called intelligence led policing .patrols in areas where there are burglaries etc. And overall the cops are pretty good at it . Cops know roughly how many risk trouble makers will be at any given footy match for instance. And police with numbers accordingly. Same with protests. But this is too constrained by staffing numbers. Cops at a football match cannot be in their neighbourhood.

6 championing crime prevention. We used to have crime prevention officers. Who visited people in their home to offer advice about security etc. They all went years ago with cuts. Not enough staff to do this currently.

7 community policing. All well and good until the local response shift have two off sick so they have to back fill due to lack of staff. Not enough staff

You will notice a common thread amongst the above.
There are simply not enough cops to do what is needed. And it won’t be getting better any time soon.

[SydneyRover]

They are not my points, they are gleaned from an expert report which I read.

[normal rules]

The data shows that:

''White people made up 92.7% of police officers at the end of March 2020, and 86.0% of the general population at the time of the 2011 Census

Asian people made up 3.1% of police officers, and 6.8% of the general population

people with Mixed ethnicity made up 2.2% of police officers, and 2.2% of the general population

Black people made up 1.3% of police officers, and 3.3% of the general population

people from the Other ethnic group made up 0.8% of police officers, and 1.7% of the general population''

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/police-workforce/latest

''Women in policing in the United Kingdom began as early as December 1915 amidst the First World War.[1] As with other countries, police forces in the UK were entirely male at the start of the 20th century. Their numbers were limited for many decades, but have gradually increased since the 1970s. In England and Wales, 31.2% (40,319) of police officers were female on 31 March 2020. Previously, women police made up 28.6% in March 2016,[2]and 23.3% in 2007.[2] Women also make up a majority of the non-sworn police staff. Notable women in the police forces include Cressida Dick, the former Commissioner (chief) of the Metropolitan Police Service.

Until 1999, women in the police force had their rank title prefixed with the word "Woman", or the letter W in abbreviations (e.g. "WPC" for Constable); this construction is still sometimes used in the press and by individuals.[3][4] From 1919 until January 1993, female officers' warrant numbers also came from a different series than male officers'.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_policing_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Their%20numbers%20were%20limited%20for,the%20non%2Dsworn%20police%20staff.

facts R US

You should look at the data for officers by ethnicity by area. You cannot look at the whole country in relation to diversity. Because it’s much more complex than that.

Rural Lincolnshire has a pretty non existent Afrocarribean or Asian community and as such very few officers in this ethnic group.
Conversely, Boston and Lincoln have large Eastern European communites and there are a number of polish, Latvian and Lithuanian officers employed both in response and community areas.

Compare that to the officers policing Brixton, or central Leicester. Of which I know there are very diverse officer groups.

[normal rules]

They are not my points, they are gleaned from an expert report which I read.

Not your points, but comments you were happy to hang your hat on and question me over?

[SydneyRover]

Facts are not us?

So we wait till some move into the area?

[SydneyRover]

They are not my points, they are gleaned from an expert report which I read.

Not your points, but comments you were happy to hang your hat on and question me over?

Of course I am, one would be fairly game to debate a subject and not have read the report aye?

[SydneyRover]

And going back to my first post today (59) it shows 35% of the population think there is a problem with crime, not necessarily with the police but they don't trust the government to sort it, the very same government that has created most of it.

So if any want to see this as a left v right problem you'll know whom to blame aye?

Oh, and this is the governments own polling.

[danumdon]

Normal rules, i think you have given this individuals outpourings a great deal more respect and listened and replied in a far greater a manner than is required in this instance.

If anything you could say this has been a failing of the police today, being far to fair and respectful of some of these born agitators ideals and wishes. i must admit if the general public carried on like this bloke and his like i would expect they would soon be seeing the inside of police vans and cells.

The demonstrations today of ER blocking fuel refineries that are of a national importance are criminal actions, and should be treated as such. i want to see the police give these agitators 20minites to make their case and then remove them from the public highway with whatever force they deem warranted allow the general public to carry on with their everyday lives. Ff the police are too scared or woke infested to do this then their will be further down the line a far bigger reckoning for not just these cretins but also for the general public at large with unwanted consequences from other undesirables. The police need to respond to their public like you stated earlier NR and clean up this piss riddled mob of aging airheads and young, politically naive and educationally stunted blowhards.

I am and i would imagine many others who have read some of the absolute crap and woke garbage this individual posts on here every day just wish he would get a life and do one on the other side of the world, Christ i do feel for the people who had to put up with this constant crap when it was resident here.

[SydneyRover]

In a nutshell most who are commenting on this subject have not:

Read the report

Do not know why it was commissioned

Do not know who wrote it

Do not know to whom it is addressing

And of course what 55 of the 56 recommendations are.

Your uninformed views are as welcome as anyone's DD

[phil old leake]

It’s because of the constant chipping away at authority by a minority that is causing a serious decline in our society

The saddest part of it for me is the media fueling this type of anti society rhetoric and thus encouraging it as a true reflection of views. 

[SydneyRover]

You're a bit of a conundrum phil, on here you are disagreeing with reforms to the police service of England and Wales where you have shown to have little or no understanding, reforms that attempt to bring the police service into this century. It would increase numbers, training, diversity, cognitive diversity, upgrade technology, put emphasis in the areas of greatest need, champion crime prevention, community policing and much much more and on the other thread you are undermining the courts and justice system.

putin, kin jong un & Xi jinping all live in a world without criticism phil and you are criticising someone that has read the report.

[phil old leake]

Syd

No one is against any kind of criticism but there is a constant frenzy and trend of media outlets such as the BBC deliberately fuelling hatred and reporting the negative.

There are many great things about the United Kingdom such as it’s openness general acceptance of all and  its tolerance

Far too many people seem to have this antI UK  agenda but seem all too happy to accept the opportunities it presents to all people to advance themselves.

Too many people are wanting to take without giving to create disparities between people to forward themselves.

[SydneyRover]

what does the bbc have to do with the price of fish?

They report news and they have opinion writers all clearly identified, would you like to be like russia where putin decides what the news is, you can already see what this government thinks of an 'open society' as it pushes to privatise C4 and appoints lackeys to influential positions.

One has to be true to one's convictions phil or at least have a good memory

''It’s because of the constant chipping away at authority by a minority that is causing a serious decline in our society''

And yet here you are criticising the judicial system

''The ridiculous outcome of the Colston 4 trial in Bristol has made people believe they can do as they please''

thou shall not criticise, do as I say

[danumdon]

In a nutshell most who are commenting on this subject have not:

Read the report

Do not know why it was commissioned

Do not know who wrote it

Do not know to whom it is addressing

And of course what 55 of the 56 recommendations are.

Your uninformed views are as welcome as anyone's DD

What you may consider "uninformed views" i and others don't agree with you and while ever this country has a hole in its arse it would never give succor to agitating extremists like you. You must of got the  picture already when you decided to do one to the other side of the world and they, unfortunately have to put up with you and your undesired like.

Its individuals like you that take advantage of the west's liberal culture and try to force your extreme left wing ideals on the majority. I don't know if you have noticed but this country does not want your give away society and unfortunately has voted the most incompetent group of misfits and imbeciles ever just to keep your extreme, left wing dogma away from power.

What does that tell you and your ilk, it tells me your not wanted, not here, certainly not where you reside now and will probably cause our nation to vote in another period of trash like we have just had to endure just to see the back of you and yours.

In a nutshell, carry on bleating your agitation, this country allows you to do that, but it will never allow a government of like minded dreamers to ever have control and totally ruin this state.

Keep shouting from the back of the room fella, no ones listening or interested.