World Cup in Qatar - is anyone interested in it?

[pib]

Back to the footy....Angleterre today, let's just hope for a good performance, no injuries, Grealish to start for a change?

and no hypocritical virtue signalling like the Germans.....

remember kids, if the players and pundits had the moral conscience they pretend to have then they wouldn't be there and neither would they pick up their Chinese funded pay packet each month back in the EPL

Pickin n choosin at the outrage buffet

PS.....if the pundits keep banging on about this mythical "red wall" of Wales fans  you'd think a football ground had never had fans in before, pretty much every nation has made more noise so far

They are doing their jobs aren't they? If everybody boycotted work due to moral objections, then millions of us wouldn't go to work every day, as pretty much every big corporation or institution has some sort of objectionable moral record of some description, whether it be environmental, low pay, poor standards, corruption, involvement in politics, back-handers, tax, or whatever else.

You can have ethical concerns and still take part in something but protest instead. That's a perfectly reasonable stance to take. I don't agree with a lot of the politics of this country and find a lot of what's happening here to be morally repugnant at the moment, but I don't refuse to go to work or participate in society.

The big difference....you arent going to work and forcing your views / what you oppose politically on others. You arent wearing a unicorn hat / making everyone put their elbow on the wall (im mocking rainbow hats and knees on grass) or some other limp, pathetic, meaningless gesture that you somehow think means you're showing support for some random thing you've decided you care about.

You go to work and you sell that car, build that house, earth that wire or whatever you may do and you DONT force whatever nonsense you've decided you believe in on others, and you DONT class yourself as some sort of moral crusader by doing so

Pundits, stick to talking about the footy, players stick to playing the footy. And I say again, if they had a conscience they wouldnt play for Newcastle or tour Asia pre season. But they do, oh but Harry Kane has a rainbow Rolex now btw so he's aaaallllll about gay rights

Riiiight, so you’re offended by people making a gesture of protest or showing solidarity with a cause? And you think that everybody in the world that is employed in any sort of job, whether that be in the public eye or not, should just stick to their job and never speak out, make any sort of gesture, or show any solidarity with any cause?

And by calling it “nonsense” they’ve “decided to believe in” are you saying that you don’t believe gay people should be treated equally?

Also, who says it’s a “meaningless gesture”? The eyes of the world are on this event, who are you to say a gesture can’t have an impact? What do you expect to happen? Do you expect Harry Kane to have sex with a team mate in the centre circle?

Oh and lastly… who’s “classing themself as a moral crusader”? How do you know Harry Kane et al don’t truly believe in the causes they are speaking out about?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I wonder when some of the folk in here will tell us how f**ked of they are at the "nonsense" and "virtue signalling" that football engages in every year around 11 November. I've just scrolled back and...nope...nothing.

How odd, from people who get so choleric about footballers giving public signs of respect, instead of just playing football.

[phil old leake]

BST are you genuinely trying to say that honouring the brave men and women who laid down their lives to allow people the right to free speech and freedom and free the survivors of the holocaust is virtue signalling. 
They gave up their rights to allow others theirs. Without their sacrifice 75% of the debates on here wouldn’t be happening

[SydneyRover]

If Kane has bought the rainbow watch it’s the same/similar to one that Stormzy wore
Would the 1/2 million pound they both spent not be better spent on feeding the hungry or warming the cold or helping the homeless or research into killer diseases rather than complimenting their wrist
Hopefully it will be sold for a profit and the money diverted to a cause that can benefit from the funds

He only bought for a wind-up phil

[Branton Red]

Where have I said I endorse or support the abhorrent laws and ethics of the Qatari regime? Nowhere. So stop treating me as if I have. I am merely highlighting that it’s a perfectly reasonable stance to participate in something that you don’t agree with and protest against it from within, and that refusing to engage isn’t the only option to show your opposition to a regime.

To suggest I am comparing the moral/ethical record of the UK to Qatar is either missing the point, or deliberately twisting the point in order to sit on your soapbox of outrage.

Go and patronise someone else.

I didn't claim you were endorsing the Qatari regime however it is wholly inconsistent of you to repudiate this in one breath and then in the next criticise me for being outraged at the same said thing.

Unlike in Qatar we have freedom of speech in the UK. If you express opinions others may consider to be abhorrent then you should expect to be challenged on them. If you're offended or feel patronised by said challenges then hard luck.

You're validating England's footballers playing in Qatar where homosexuality is banned and women treated as 2nd class citizens because UK citizens aren't boycotting working for companies that pay low wages in a country with minimum wage legislation.

Despite your protestations this is clearly and obviously comparing and indeed equalising the hugely different moral/ethical standards of the UK and Qatar. As well as being pretty ridiculous.

There are some valid, reasonable and decent arguments in favour of England playing in Qatar - yours isn't one of them.

[BahrainRover]

Can I ask are all your options made from actually being in the country or just from what your told? I have been in the region for 10 years, and I can tell you all its not all what you portray.

[pib]

Where have I said I endorse or support the abhorrent laws and ethics of the Qatari regime? Nowhere. So stop treating me as if I have. I am merely highlighting that it’s a perfectly reasonable stance to participate in something that you don’t agree with and protest against it from within, and that refusing to engage isn’t the only option to show your opposition to a regime.

To suggest I am comparing the moral/ethical record of the UK to Qatar is either missing the point, or deliberately twisting the point in order to sit on your soapbox of outrage.

Go and patronise someone else.

I didn't claim you were endorsing the Qatari regime however it is wholly inconsistent of you to repudiate this in one breath and then in the next criticise me for being outraged at the same said thing.

Unlike in Qatar we have freedom of speech in the UK. If you express opinions others may consider to be abhorrent then you should expect to be challenged on them. If you're offended or feel patronised by said challenges then hard luck.

You're validating England's footballers playing in Qatar where homosexuality is banned and women treated as 2nd class citizens because UK citizens aren't boycotting working for companies that pay low wages in a country with minimum wage legislation.

Despite your protestations this is clearly and obviously comparing and indeed equalising the hugely different moral/ethical standards of the UK and Qatar. As well as being pretty ridiculous.

There are some valid, reasonable and decent arguments in favour of England playing in Qatar - yours isn't one of them.

Branton. I am not equalising the moral standards of the UK and Qatar. If you think that’s what I’m doing then I don’t know what to say to you, because that would be a ridiculous view to hold.

You’re either misunderstanding or wilfully ignoring the nuance of what I’m saying. If that gives you the satisfaction of feeling morally superior then good luck to you.

I’ll spell it out again for you. I’m presenting two examples in order to demonstrate to the poster that I was responding to, that completely opting out of participating in something (in this case doing your job) that is taking place somewhere that you don’t agree with their ethics or laws is not the only way to protest against those ethics or laws. And by the same token, participating in it but at the same time taking part in acts of defiance or gestures of solidarity whilst doing so is not somehow “weak” or “spineless” as many people like to accuse the players/pundits etc. as being.

If you find that abhorrent and an appalling validation of the Qatari regime then there’s no point continuing this conversation as you’re clearly too lost in the weeds of this binary view of England’s players being out there to see the point I am making.

As you said yourself, this event is being watched the world over and the eyes of millions of people, which is a great platform for players and pundits and the like to display their ethical concerns about the country it is being held in. You might feel it would have more impact them staying away completely, but that is definitely not the only way to highlight these issues.

[Branton Red]

Pib

I agree with your below quote: -

"completely opting out of participating in something (in this case doing your job) that is taking place somewhere that you don’t agree with their ethics or laws is not the only way to protest against those ethics or laws. And by the same token, participating in it but at the same time taking part in acts of defiance or gestures of solidarity whilst doing so is not somehow weak"

I was disagreeing with your earlier post - the one I responded to firstly: -

"They are doing their jobs aren't they? If everybody boycotted work due to moral objections, then millions of us wouldn't go to work every day, as pretty much every big corporation or institution has some sort of objectionable moral record of some description, whether it be environmental, low pay, poor standards, corruption, involvement in politics, back-handers, tax, or whatever else."

As I say this is validating England's footballers playing in Qatar where homosexuality is banned and women treated as 2nd class citizens because UK citizens aren't boycotting working for companies that pay low wages in a country with minimum wage legislation.

And is clearly and obviously comparing and indeed equalising the hugely different moral/ethical standards of the UK and Qatar. As well as being pretty ridiculous.

[pib]

Branton. It really isn’t. I’ve explained this to you above so I won’t do so again.

But if you really want to get into that debate, you and I both know full well that there are a lot worse ethical atrocities taking place on these shores than companies paying low wages.

I notice you only pick out this one example from the non-exhaustive list I made though. Please do let me know though how less strongly you believe I should feel about financial interests being prioritised over action being taken on the destruction of the habitability of the planet, or political choices on austerity and Covid that have/will cost a significant number of people in this country their lives.
Ta.

[phil old leake]

Syd if that’s the case then I bit

[SydneyRover]

Syd if that’s the case then I bit

watch ............ wind-up, get it phil?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST are you genuinely trying to say that honouring the brave men and women who laid down their lives to allow people the right to free speech and freedom and free the survivors of the holocaust is virtue signalling. 
They gave up their rights to allow others theirs. Without their sacrifice 75% of the debates on here wouldn’t be happening

Phew. Do I REALLY need to answer that?

[DRFC_AjA]

Firstly you're confusing pointing out hypocrisy with somehow meaning supporting a homophobic regime. No, there is no equivelance.

If you want an equivelcne, The only way you can equate this is the company you work for kills migrant workers in the production process and explicitly bans homosexuals. You continue to work there and pick up the pay cheque

Added to that at any time you meet an external client you spout off about how you're all for equality and you point at your shiny rainbow armand

Also the Russian company you worked for 4 years ago was invading another country but you were quiet about that presumably because it wasn't in trend to speak up

2 things happen as a result:

1) I call out and laugh at your hypocrisy Mr Lineker et al

2) in doing 1, I'm not somehow supporting homophobia or that regime. I'm not anti whatever your cause is. That equivelnce just doesn't exist. I just want you to stop pretending you care and stop preaching when you simply don't

Easy peasy lemon squuezy

Also after your job above has finished you go back to another job (akin to global players returning to their leagues) which is awash with Saudi and Chinese money... built on the oil industry, child labour,
more migrant worker deaths, persecution of Muslims....and guess what, you say NOTHING

The point is not "anti speaking out" per se, it's stop pretending you give a s*** when you don't

[Avsuptem]

I can't help thinking there is a whiff of hypocracy or even neo colonialism about this debate. So, Qatar takes steps to restrict the opportunity to have drunken yobs staggering around the streets of Doha. And in accordance with their religion homosexuality is illegal just as it is in every other muslim country. Also illegal in all African counties except one. Its not so long ago that it was illegal in most of the western world too. Yet the next world cup will be held in the States where more people are imprisoned than anywhere else in the world, the vast majority of prisoners are black and many are forced to work on chain gangs, a country where a man with a gun murders gays in a night club and where children in schools are regularly gunned down. Where white supremecists populate the police force and kill black suspects regularly. The press and media will make no mention of this at the next world cup but are indulging in frenzy of criticism of Qatar. It's a bit unfair don't you think ?

[SydneyRover]

As you say in your comment Avsuptem the west have and are making changes for the better so why sneer at anyone making a stand or a point against ignorant oppression however they do it, at least they are doing something. Education is the answer.

[wilts rover]

The UK government has a number of contracts to provide equipment, weapons and training to the Qatari government, military and police. The people who enforce their laws. A minister said recently they want a 'deeper relationship' with Qatar.

No minister has said they disagree with human rights laws or lack of workers rights in Qatar. Exactly the opposite. Tory ministers going over there have said they agree with the stance of that government on human rights measures that would be illegal in this country.

Yet it's Gary Linekar who is a hypocrite - hmmm.

Vote Tory.

[Avsuptem]

As you say in your comment Avsuptem the west have and are making changes for the better so why sneer at anyone making a stand or a point against ignorant oppression however they do it, at least they are doing something. Education is the answer.

I think you missed my point. I was not condoning oppression. I was criticising the double standerds and pointing out the hypocracy.

[SydneyRover]

No I didn't miss your point at all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pete Davies in his seminal book about Italia 90 made a superb observation.

From that tournament on, the World Cup wasn't held in a country. A country played host to Planet Football.

Yes the final was in Rome that year, but that was nigh on irrelevant. The World Cup Finals became from then on a global celebration that happened to be physically based in a particular geographical location. It transcended the local culture.

Even Russia, even Putin understood this. He had the police stop arresting and assaulting gay people for the duration. Russia strove to show itself as part of the global family.

Qatar have not played that game. They've insisted that they will impose their own specific culture on the tournament, not have the world bring its culture to them.

They've bought FIFA off, then shoved their noses in the issue of who had the power, by, at the last minute, banning alcohol and shows of tolerance and support to gay people. The left it to the very last minute to do this, to give a fait accompli to countries at the finals.

That's their prerogative, but it must never, ever happen again. Host countries don't own a WC. They host it, and the world takes them over for a brief period. We now know countries like Qatar don't want those rules. So they can f**k right off in future.

[knockers]

Out of 20 teams so far only France has won them both. Now that’s a bit weird!

[Avsuptem]

Pete Davies in his seminal book about Italia 90 made a superb observation.

From that tournament on, the World Cup wasn't held in a country. A country played host to Planet Football.

Yes the final was in Rome that year, but that was nigh on irrelevant. The World Cup Finals became from then on a global celebration that happened to be physically based in a particular geographical location. It transcended the local culture.

Even Russia, even Putin understood this. He had the police stop arresting and assaulting gay people for the duration. Russia strove to show itself as part of the global family.

Qatar have not played that game. They've insisted that they will impose their own specific culture on the tournament, not have the world bring its culture to them.

They've bought FIFA off, then shoved their noses in the issue of who had the power, by, at the last minute, banning alcohol and shows of tolerance and support to gay people. The left it to the very last minute to do this, to give a fait accompli to countries at the finals.

That's their prerogative, but it must never, ever happen again. Host countries don't own a WC. They host it, and the world takes them over for a brief period. We now know countries like Qatar don't want those rules. So they can f**k right off in future.

There's a difference BST. Russia is not a Muslim country.
Under your logic FIFA should be allowed to impose Christian / Western values upon the host nation, either that or no muslim country should ever be allowed to host again.

[phil old leake]

Or we should allow people from other countries that have laws we don’t like to ignore ours and adhere to their own
Anyone that went to this World Cup not knowing about their laws regarding alcohol and homosexuality (not saying I agree with their draconian laws) must have had their heads up their backsides

[wilts rover]

Pete Davies in his seminal book about Italia 90 made a superb observation.

From that tournament on, the World Cup wasn't held in a country. A country played host to Planet Football.

Yes the final was in Rome that year, but that was nigh on irrelevant. The World Cup Finals became from then on a global celebration that happened to be physically based in a particular geographical location. It transcended the local culture.

Even Russia, even Putin understood this. He had the police stop arresting and assaulting gay people for the duration. Russia strove to show itself as part of the global family.

Qatar have not played that game. They've insisted that they will impose their own specific culture on the tournament, not have the world bring its culture to them.

They've bought FIFA off, then shoved their noses in the issue of who had the power, by, at the last minute, banning alcohol and shows of tolerance and support to gay people. The left it to the very last minute to do this, to give a fait accompli to countries at the finals.

That's their prerogative, but it must never, ever happen again. Host countries don't own a WC. They host it, and the world takes them over for a brief period. We now know countries like Qatar don't want those rules. So they can f**k right off in future.

There's a difference BST. Russia is not a Muslim country.
Under your logic FIFA should be allowed to impose Christian / Western values upon the host nation, either that or no muslim country should ever be allowed to host again.

No country that exploits people (workers rights) or discriminates against them in defiance of UN Human Rights Law (gay/women's rights) should ever stage a major international sporting event.

[BahrainRover]

Is it any different to the influx of cheap European labor in to the UK? The farm gangs that were reported years back to be in the best of conditions!

[wilts rover]

The UK has a minimum wage and health & safety legislation in the workplace. Qatar doesn't and there are many examples of workers rights abuses in this very thread.

Is something that is illegal in one country the same as something that is legal in another? What a strange question.

[BahrainRover]

Wilts, as I have previously asked are all these examples made from first hand experience? Not that strange a question as I live and work in the region. I know there are workers rights such labour laws, minimum salaries. Private healthcare is also a legal requirement to be paid by all employers.

[Avsuptem]

Pete Davies in his seminal book about Italia 90 made a superb observation.

From that tournament on, the World Cup wasn't held in a country. A country played host to Planet Football.

Yes the final was in Rome that year, but that was nigh on irrelevant. The World Cup Finals became from then on a global celebration that happened to be physically based in a particular geographical location. It transcended the local culture.

Even Russia, even Putin understood this. He had the police stop arresting and assaulting gay people for the duration. Russia strove to show itself as part of the global family.

Qatar have not played that game. They've insisted that they will impose their own specific culture on the tournament, not have the world bring its culture to them.

They've bought FIFA off, then shoved their noses in the issue of who had the power, by, at the last minute, banning alcohol and shows of tolerance and support to gay people. The left it to the very last minute to do this, to give a fait accompli to countries at the finals.

That's their prerogative, but it must never, ever happen again. Host countries don't own a WC. They host it, and the world takes them over for a brief period. We now know countries like Qatar don't want those rules. So they can f**k right off in future.

There's a difference BST. Russia is not a Muslim country.
Under your logic FIFA should be allowed to impose Christian / Western values upon the host nation, either that or no muslim country should ever be allowed to host again.

No country that exploits people (workers rights) or discriminates against them in defiance of UN Human Rights Law (gay/women's rights) should ever stage a major international sporting event.

Fifa had better take the world cup away from USA then before it's too late.

BST I was just wandering if there was anything else on your list that you think should preclude a country ? I would start with lack of fish and chip shops.

[wilts rover]

Wilts, as I have previously asked are all these examples made from first hand experience? Not that strange a question as I live and work in the region. I know there are workers rights such labour laws, minimum salaries. Private healthcare is also a legal requirement to be paid by all employers.

Not from me no, I have never been to the middle east (other than Egypt, Palestine & Jordan). However the reports we get over here are from the home nations of the workers who have been badly treated, Nepal, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Just google Qatar workers and then each of those countries - you will find plenty of first hand testimonies.

You may have worked over there for many years, so are clearly better placed than us in the UK to comment, but are you really commenting on the conditions all workers experience - or just ones from western countries?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-63628537
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022

[BahrainRover]

No I am not talking from a western point of view at all. In my place of work there is only one other westerner from Manchester. All the other people I work with are either Saudi, India (Kerela/Tamil Nadu) Filipino or Nepalese. I know the conditions the guys live in and the salaries and conditions they work in, and it’s nothing like the reports mentioned in this thread. The accommodation is the same quality as where I live. Ok there are camps in remote locations, but again these are good quality and subject to regular government and company inspections. As for women as second class people, not at all, and this is in Saudi Arabia. My department head, division head and director are all women. I am not saying there are no differences to the UK there are, but no way as badly portrayed by the media, who we know will pick up on the slightest thing and twist and manipulate it to their advantage. People look badly and negatively at the Middle East, but I will honestly say if I had to choose where to live out of the two, Saudi would win every time over the UK, on many aspects.

[Bristol Red Rover]

A report I saw said that there has been a fair amount of cross support between Iranians and other muslim fans. A positive if true.