Roald Dahl

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's the principle though. It's lazy stereotyping. Making a baddie fat and ugly and a good slim and beautiful is a bit crap really isn't it? And doing that in kids' books is worse than crap. It's insidious.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I once tried reading Atlas Shrugged to see if I was missing something and the libertarians had a founding principle in their great work of fiction.

I got about three pages in when the hero was introduced as lean, blonde, firm jawed.

I gave up at that because it clearly wasn't worth the effort.

[Nudga]

What's your take on transmen and gay men being overtly sexual and flirting with the same sex on children's TV?

[BillyStubbsTears]

What's your take on transmen and gay men being overtly sexual and flirting with the same sex on children's TV?

Same as my reaction to any adult acting sexually with children. What a strange question to ask.

[Nudga]

Do you change channels and refuse to put it on your TV again?

[ncRover]

It's the principle though. It's lazy stereotyping. Making a baddie fat and ugly and a good slim and beautiful is a bit crap really isn't it? And doing that in kids' books is worse than crap. It's insidious.

Are you trying to equate making fun of someone being fat to making fun of someone for being Jewish?

Like I’ve said, the past is the past and people can write new books if it offends them so much.

[ncRover]

I once tried reading Atlas Shrugged to see if I was missing something and the libertarians had a founding principle in their great work of fiction.

I got about three pages in when the hero was introduced as lean, blonde, firm jawed.

I gave up at that because it clearly wasn't worth the effort.

What about Greek mythology then? No overweight gods and heroes there. Let’s edit that too.

[Bentley Bullet]

Is it offensive to portray Boris Johnson as a pig?

I imagine the pig is traumatised by the comparison.

Fell right into the trap.

[Bentley Bullet]

Is it offensive to portray Boris Johnson as a pig?

Yes a pig is grown up, a greasy piglet on the other hand.....

If a pig is grown up at least it stops anyone from comparing you to one.

[glosterred]

Has anyone questioned when this all started? IMHO it started when in kids sports days every kid had to be a winner and there wasn’t a loser. Now those kids are the ones re-writing Dahl. Where will it end?

[BobG]

It will end with wimps, fear, ever more political correctness and, one way or another,  censorship. We already have at least half of that lot now.

BobG

[Branton Red]

Should some of the violent imagery, inappropriate language and misogyny be taken out of the works of other famous historical writers too?

How about Shakespeare?

"Is this a mildly pointed stick which I see before me?"

"By the clicking of my thumbs, something not so nice this way comes."

Or some of our most famous sayings?

"Hell hath no consternation like a person of non-specific gender scorned"

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's the principle though. It's lazy stereotyping. Making a baddie fat and ugly and a good slim and beautiful is a bit crap really isn't it? And doing that in kids' books is worse than crap. It's insidious.

Are you trying to equate making fun of someone being fat to making fun of someone for being Jewish?

Like I’ve said, the past is the past and people can write new books if it offends them so much.

I'm saying they are both lazy, sloppy and insidious stereotypes, which reflect the prejudices of the author.

[ncRover]

It's the principle though. It's lazy stereotyping. Making a baddie fat and ugly and a good slim and beautiful is a bit crap really isn't it? And doing that in kids' books is worse than crap. It's insidious.

Are you trying to equate making fun of someone being fat to making fun of someone for being Jewish?

Like I’ve said, the past is the past and people can write new books if it offends them so much.

I'm saying they are both lazy, sloppy and insidious stereotypes, which reflect the prejudices of the author.

I didn’t realise he was an anti-Semite but there were no examples of that given in the article. Nor are there any examples in his work?

That’s fair enough, that’s your opinion.

With that in mind, do you think:

A) That the morality police should edit an authors creative work posthumously.

B) People can decide for themselves whether they spend their time and money on the books.

A quote that sums this culture we find ourselves in;

“If people can't control their own emotions, then they have to start trying to control other people's behaviour.”

[ravenrover]

Is it offensive to portray Boris Johnson as a pig?

Yes a pig is grown up, a greasy piglet on the other hand.....

If a pig is grown up at least it stops anyone from comparing you to one.

My Grandchildren love me though
So what's your take on it, Johnson portrayed as pig that is?

[Bentley Bullet]

My grandchildren love me also, but not because I call people I dislike "pigs".

[scawsby steve]

The AB of C makes a proclamation about something that was invented thousands of years ago and you're concerned about it?

There are 4,000 recognised religions in the world all speak the truth

Trust you to come in with your usual anti-religion bile. You're an atheist, as is your privilege, some of us are believers, as is our privilege; and there is no proof to say who is right or wrong.

Put your bigotry to one side for a bit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's the principle though. It's lazy stereotyping. Making a baddie fat and ugly and a good slim and beautiful is a bit crap really isn't it? And doing that in kids' books is worse than crap. It's insidious.

Are you trying to equate making fun of someone being fat to making fun of someone for being Jewish?

Like I’ve said, the past is the past and people can write new books if it offends them so much.

I'm saying they are both lazy, sloppy and insidious stereotypes, which reflect the prejudices of the author.

I didn’t realise he was an anti-Semite but there were no examples of that given in the article. Nor are there any examples in his work?

That’s fair enough, that’s your opinion.

With that in mind, do you think:

A) That the morality police should edit an authors creative work posthumously.

B) People can decide for themselves whether they spend their time and money on the books.

A quote that sums this culture we find ourselves in;

“If people can't control their own emotions, then they have to start trying to control other people's behaviour.”

I didn't say Dahl was an anti-Semite. I was giving an example of another lazy stereotype and asking if that was acceptable.

Your use of the phrase "moral police" is disappointing. It implies that you've made your mind up that the people who disagree with you on this don't have valid points to make, and I stead should be belittled with a perjorative term.

Funny how language works...

[scawsby steve]

Here’s another one:

“Medieval classics may be ‘racist and misogynist’, say Oxford scholars

University puts trigger warning on works such as The Canterbury Tales as students told they might encounter ‘troubling’ themes”

Fancy that!

As part of my degree, we studied the great Thomas Hardy, one of my favourite authors of all time. One of the women on the course, an ultra feminist, maintained that Hardy's novels showed him to be a misogynist.

Unbelievable.

What evidence did she give for this SS?

It was when we studied "Tess of the d'Urbervilles", Wilts. She put the constant demise of Tess throughout the story as being down to Hardy being a woman hater, when in actual fact it was because of the bigotry of Victorian society, which Hardy was alluding to.

[Nudga]

The AB of C makes a proclamation about something that was invented thousands of years ago and you're concerned about it?

There are 4,000 recognised religions in the world all speak the truth

Trust you to come in with your usual anti-religion bile. You're an atheist, as is your privilege, some of us are believers, as is our privilege; and there is no proof to say who is right or wrong.

Put your bigotry to one side for a bit.

Steve, I am also an atheist and I have my own views on religion. I just cannot be doing with these new ideals that are trying to rewrite history and culture to suit an agenda.
Welby says God is non-binary but how does the lords prayer start?

[ncRover]

It's the principle though. It's lazy stereotyping. Making a baddie fat and ugly and a good slim and beautiful is a bit crap really isn't it? And doing that in kids' books is worse than crap. It's insidious.

Are you trying to equate making fun of someone being fat to making fun of someone for being Jewish?

Like I’ve said, the past is the past and people can write new books if it offends them so much.

I'm saying they are both lazy, sloppy and insidious stereotypes, which reflect the prejudices of the author.

I didn’t realise he was an anti-Semite but there were no examples of that given in the article. Nor are there any examples in his work?

That’s fair enough, that’s your opinion.

With that in mind, do you think:

A) That the morality police should edit an authors creative work posthumously.

B) People can decide for themselves whether they spend their time and money on the books.

A quote that sums this culture we find ourselves in;

“If people can't control their own emotions, then they have to start trying to control other people's behaviour.”

I didn't say Dahl was an anti-Semite. I was giving an example of another lazy stereotype and asking if that was acceptable.

Your use of the phrase "moral police" is disappointing. It implies that you've made your mind up that the people who disagree with you on this don't have valid points to make, and I stead should be belittled with a perjorative term.

Funny how language works...

I know you didn’t, but it’s way worse to caricature someone for being Jewish than overweight so I’m not sure it’s a valid example. I said that because I think it highlights how it’s possible to find value in a writer’s work without endorsing their personal views.

Ok, I’ll rephrase that if you answer my question please. Because, I think it’s obvious where I stand on this.

Would you rather?

A) Potentially offensive literary classics are edited to avoid potential distress to the reader. This is more important than the author’s intellectual property and a truthful representation of the past.

B) People can decide for themselves whether they spend their time and money on the books. Culture changes naturally and new books come in to favour to reflect the society of the time.

You condemned the burning of books on the Ukraine thread so I’m interested in your response.

[scawsby steve]

The AB of C makes a proclamation about something that was invented thousands of years ago and you're concerned about it?

There are 4,000 recognised religions in the world all speak the truth

Trust you to come in with your usual anti-religion bile. You're an atheist, as is your privilege, some of us are believers, as is our privilege; and there is no proof to say who is right or wrong.

Put your bigotry to one side for a bit.

Steve, I am also an atheist and I have my own views on religion. I just cannot be doing with these new ideals that are trying to rewrite history and culture to suit an agenda.
Welby says God is non-binary but how does the lords prayer start?

I agree with you, Nudga, you can't play about with semantics the way Welby is doing.

It certainly won't affect the Catholic Church, of which I'm a member. In fact, if anything, the Catholic Church is often criticised for not accepting change enough.

[ncRover]

Has anyone questioned when this all started? IMHO it started when in kids sports days every kid had to be a winner and there wasn’t a loser. Now those kids are the ones re-writing Dahl. Where will it end?

It started when the demand for cultural problems to solve outstripped the supply.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here’s another one:

“Medieval classics may be ‘racist and misogynist’, say Oxford scholars

University puts trigger warning on works such as The Canterbury Tales as students told they might encounter ‘troubling’ themes”

Fancy that!

As part of my degree, we studied the great Thomas Hardy, one of my favourite authors of all time. One of the women on the course, an ultra feminist, maintained that Hardy's novels showed him to be a misogynist.

Unbelievable.

What evidence did she give for this SS?

It was when we studied "Tess of the d'Urbervilles", Wilts. She put the constant demise of Tess throughout the story as being down to Hardy being a woman hater, when in actual fact it was because of the bigotry of Victorian society, which Hardy was alluding to.

She just sounds like a really bad student.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nudga.

Do you reckon the man who wrote the Lords Prayer knew God personally?

[Nudga]

Nudga.

Do you reckon the man who wrote the Lords Prayer knew God personally?

No, because that's impossible, in my opinion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So...?

[Branton Red]

Just back on topic. I assumed that Puffin had just changed the odd word here or there e.g. removing words like "fat", "ugly" etc. But actually they've changed entire passages. Example: -

In The Witches the witches all need to wear wigs and gloves.

Original passage by Dahl "Don't be foolish" my grandmother said "you can't go round pulling the hair of every lady you meet, even if she is wearing gloves. Just try it and see what happens."

A very Dahlesque piece of writing to make 9 year olds giggle at the thought of doing something so naughty.

New passage "Don't be foolish" my grandmother said "Besides, there are plenty of other reasons why women might wear wigs and there is certainly nothing wrong with that."

Unbelievable! And rubbish in comparison.

They're taking the very fun and mischievousness out of the text which makes Dahl's work so very popular.

[scawsby steve]

Here’s another one:

“Medieval classics may be ‘racist and misogynist’, say Oxford scholars

University puts trigger warning on works such as The Canterbury Tales as students told they might encounter ‘troubling’ themes”

Fancy that!

As part of my degree, we studied the great Thomas Hardy, one of my favourite authors of all time. One of the women on the course, an ultra feminist, maintained that Hardy's novels showed him to be a misogynist.

Unbelievable.

What evidence did she give for this SS?

It was when we studied "Tess of the d'Urbervilles", Wilts. She put the constant demise of Tess throughout the story as being down to Hardy being a woman hater, when in actual fact it was because of the bigotry of Victorian society, which Hardy was alluding to.

She just sounds like a really bad student.

She was. Always missing lectures, always late with assignments.

As far as I know, she didn't graduate. Another one who expected something for nothing in life.

[SydneyRover]

The AB of C makes a proclamation about something that was invented thousands of years ago and you're concerned about it?

There are 4,000 recognised religions in the world all speak the truth

Trust you to come in with your usual anti-religion bile. You're an atheist, as is your privilege, some of us are believers, as is our privilege; and there is no proof to say who is right or wrong.

Put your bigotry to one side for a bit.

we've discussed this before, then you said it wasn't religion it was faith.