General Election

[danumdon]

So DD.

That CGT thing?

The CGT thing means bugger all in the bigger scheme of things, its the fact they will tinker around the edges until as such a time that they can really stick the knife in. By pretending to not raise the  big tax generators they will squeeze through on others like the council tax re-assessment, pensions freedoms and isa restrictions. All things that will hit the very type of people who keep this country on an even keel.

Have no doubt if they could slide their hands into your personal finance they would.

You may be very much willing and in agreement.

I know many that will not be so accommodating.

[danumdon]

So DD.

That CGT thing?

More important things in life, I'm off to watch two real teams play some football

[BillyStubbsTears]

So DD.

That CGT thing?

The CGT thing means bugger all in the bigger scheme of things, its the fact they will tinker around the edges until as such a time that they can really stick the knife in. By pretending to not raise the  big tax generators they will squeeze through on others like the council tax re-assessment, pensions freedoms and isa restrictions. All things that will hit the very type of people who keep this country on an even keel.

Have no doubt if they could slide their hands into your personal finance they would.

You may be very much willing and in agreement.

I know many that will not be so accommodating.

Right.

So that's one thing you were ranting about that you're now saying isn't going to happen.

Do you see the point?

[Ldr]

So DD.

That CGT thing?

So BST

That resigning from the party thing?

Doing the board equivalent of hiding in a fridge to avoid the question Billy?

[danumdon]

So DD.

That CGT thing?

The CGT thing means bugger all in the bigger scheme of things, its the fact they will tinker around the edges until as such a time that they can really stick the knife in. By pretending to not raise the  big tax generators they will squeeze through on others like the council tax re-assessment, pensions freedoms and isa restrictions. All things that will hit the very type of people who keep this country on an even keel.

Have no doubt if they could slide their hands into your personal finance they would.

You may be very much willing and in agreement.

I know many that will not be so accommodating.

Right.

So that's one thing you were ranting about that you're now saying isn't going to happen.

Do you see the point?

WTF?

Where did i say it won't now happen?

DO you actually read peoples posts or just look at it and want it to mean what suits?

For the record i do think it will be aligned with general taxation, just in time to catch out a great many BTL's who may be thinking of getting out while they can, before they get fleeced by another bunch of Liberal Democrats, who just need to be spending everyone's taxes, wastefully.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So DD.

That CGT thing?

So BST

That resigning from the party thing?

Doing the board equivalent of hiding in a fridge to avoid the question Billy?

I'm not hiding from anything. I don't recall you asking me.

I'm holding fire until I hear the outcome of the legal action Shaheen is taking.

Abbott was allowed to stand.

The Shaheen case is not as clear cut as I thought. The original claim was that she'd been barred from standing because she'd like a tweet of a Jon Stewart video.

It later turned out that was ONE of the tweets that was part of the case against her, and she's been strangely evasive about giving the full details. Which leaves me thinking there's more to it.

We'll see. If it is as clear cut as it was first presented then yes I will certainly resign my membership.

[Ldr]

So DD.

That CGT thing?

So BST

That resigning from the party thing?

Doing the board equivalent of hiding in a fridge to avoid the question Billy?

I'm not hiding from anything. I don't recall you asking me.

I'm holding fire until I hear the outcome of the legal action Shaheen is taking.

Abbott was allowed to stand.

The Shaheen case is not as clear cut as I thought. The original claim was that she'd been barred from standing because she'd like a tweet of a Jon Stewart video.

It later turned out that was ONE of the tweets that was part of the case against her, and she's been strangely evasive about giving the full details. Which leaves me thinking there's more to it.

We'll see. If it is as clear cut as it was first presented then yes I will certainly resign my membership.

Fair play

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.

You raised the issue
Then said it means bugger all.
And point blank refused my challenge about whether it will happen.

Then you get cross that I misunderstood what you're trying to say.

By all means be angry about what you think Labour might or might not do.

But if you want to be taken seriously, be prepared to revisit your opinion later on. That's the reason I challenged you to a bet. I don't understand why you won't take that challenge. Doesn't have to have any money involved. It's just about being grown up and revisiting things you say in the light of what actually happens.

[ncRover]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

[TonySoprano]

Explain to me TS, which proposed or likely Labour tax policy will penalise people owning their own home?

Buying a house ? TAXED
Selling a house after its risen in value? TAXED
Worked hard and bought a house deemed too big? MANSION TAX
gift to kids to help them to buy. TAXED.

Labour just want to tax everyone into oblivion so that everyone is poor.

Apart from stamp duty on buying a house, every single other thing you say is incorrect.

So full of anger and no f**king idea why.

Except it's not though is it ?

[ncRover]

Explain to me TS, which proposed or likely Labour tax policy will penalise people owning their own home?

Buying a house ? TAXED
Selling a house after its risen in value? TAXED
Worked hard and bought a house deemed too big? MANSION TAX
gift to kids to help them to buy. TAXED.

Labour just want to tax everyone into oblivion so that everyone is poor.

Apart from stamp duty on buying a house, every single other thing you say is incorrect.

So full of anger and no f**king idea why.

Except it's not though is it ?

You got anything on the credibility of Reform’s spending plans TS?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Explain to me TS, which proposed or likely Labour tax policy will penalise people owning their own home?

Buying a house ? TAXED
Selling a house after its risen in value? TAXED
Worked hard and bought a house deemed too big? MANSION TAX
gift to kids to help them to buy. TAXED.

Labour just want to tax everyone into oblivion so that everyone is poor.

Apart from stamp duty on buying a house, every single other thing you say is incorrect.

So full of anger and no f**king idea why.

Except it's not though is it ?

Yes

It is.

You don't get taxed on any profit for selling your residence.

You don't get taxed on gifts to your children.

There's no such thing as a Mansion Tax.

[Bristol Red Rover]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

Have you seen the news recently? Unbelievable.

[ncRover]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

Have you seen the news recently? Unbelievable.

Have you studied history? Name me a more peaceful period and better time to be alive than the last 80 years.*

Or a socialist, communist or autocratic country where people have been wealthy compared to today’s standards and free to be whoever they want to be.

*have any wars in that period involved 2 secular, liberal, capitalist countries?

[danumdon]

DD.

How much do you want to bet that CGT on house sales will not be introduced for people whose dwelling place is anything remotely close to the average price?

Your call. 

You keep up this constant stream of moaning about things you expect to happen. Walk the walk then.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/21/labour-drafts-options-for-wealth-taxes-to-unlock-funds-for-public-services

The momentum starts.

Where does it stop?

[drfchound]

The NHS is in a mess right now but the signs are that Labour won’t improve things when they take over.

The Guardian now telling us by the the respected Nuffield Trust both the Conservative and Labour manifestos would put the NHS in a worse funding situation than they suffered under the Austerity period of the current government in 2010/11 and 2014/15.
“The assessment by the respected Nuffield Trust of the costed NHS policies of both parties, announced in their manifestos last week, says the level of funding increases would leave them struggling to pay existing staff costs, let alone the bill for massive planned increases in doctors, nurses and other staff in the long-term workforce plan agreed last year”.
Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies said that for Labour to deliver the change it is promising there would need to be more money on the table. “Labour’s manifesto offers no indication that there is a plan for where the money would come from to finance this,” he said.

My wife is also awaiting a much needed operation so we aren’t expecting too much after 4th July.

Just giving this a bump as no long time Labour supporters have given an opinion on whether the highly respected Nuffield Trust are talking rubbish.
Starmer is consistently not giving straight answers to valid questions being asked of him.
This is the man who will be PM in a couple of weeks time.

[TonySoprano]

Explain to me TS, which proposed or likely Labour tax policy will penalise people owning their own home?

Buying a house ? TAXED
Selling a house after its risen in value? TAXED
Worked hard and bought a house deemed too big? MANSION TAX
gift to kids to help them to buy. TAXED.

Labour just want to tax everyone into oblivion so that everyone is poor.

Apart from stamp duty on buying a house, every single other thing you say is incorrect.

So full of anger and no f**king idea why.

Except it's not though is it ?

Yes

It is.

You don't get taxed on any profit for selling your residence.

You don't get taxed on gifts to your children.

There's no such thing as a Mansion Tax.

Not yet, which is my point.
Labour can't be trusted with your money

[Bristol Red Rover]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

Have you seen the news recently? Unbelievable.

Have you studied history? Name me a more peaceful period and better time to be alive than the last 80 years.*

Or a socialist, communist or autocratic country where people have been wealthy compared to today’s standards and free to be whoever they want to be.

*have any wars in that period involved 2 secular, liberal, capitalist countries?

You conveniently take your chosen period as after ww2, tho if the last 80 years, millions were still to die in ww2, including those two bombs. Doesn't sound too peaceful to me. Then Vietnam, Ukraine, Ethiopia, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Mexico, Nigeria, Sudan, Afghanistan, Congo, Burundi, Bosnia, Rwanda, Algeria, Somalia, iran/Iraq, Lebanon, Bangladesh, Colombia, Angola, Korea, India. Apparently some died there, far, far more than at any other time in history.

A big wow to your starred bit at the end. Can you think that a war involving a capitalist country might be due to them being expansionist? Or in ones not directly involving a capitalist country that they may be sponsoring one side, proxy wars?

[Not Now Kato]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

Have you seen the news recently? Unbelievable.

Have you studied history? Name me a more peaceful period and better time to be alive than the last 80 years.*

Or a socialist, communist or autocratic country where people have been wealthy compared to today’s standards and free to be whoever they want to be.

*have any wars in that period involved 2 secular, liberal, capitalist countries?

As you leave the Cloth Hall in Ypres, (destroyed by the Germans in WW1 and rebuilt to the exact same design afterwards), and now a museum to WW! there's a scrolling display headed "Since the end of the War To End All Wars there hasn't been a single day on this planet where a war hasn't been, or isn't being, fought" The scrolling display lists each one complete with dates.  It's quite frightening!
 
The fact that there has been no military conflicts between former foes within Europe is simply down to the formation and existence of the EU - you remember, that thing that the little englanders voted to leave.

[SydneyRover]

not yet, wait and see, just around the corner, my aunt fanny

[Ldr]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

Have you seen the news recently? Unbelievable.

Have you studied history? Name me a more peaceful period and better time to be alive than the last 80 years.*

Or a socialist, communist or autocratic country where people have been wealthy compared to today’s standards and free to be whoever they want to be.

*have any wars in that period involved 2 secular, liberal, capitalist countries?

As you leave the Cloth Hall in Ypres, (destroyed by the Germans in WW1 and rebuilt to the exact same design afterwards), and now a museum to WW! there's a scrolling display headed "Since the end of the War To End All Wars there hasn't been a single day on this planet where a war hasn't been, or isn't being, fought" The scrolling display lists each one complete with dates.  It's quite frightening!
 
The fact that there has been no military conflicts between former foes within Europe is simply down to the formation and existence of the EU - you remember, that thing that the little englanders voted to leave.

You’d attribute anything to the EU, nothing to do with NATO is it?

[SydneyRover]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

Have you seen the news recently? Unbelievable.

Have you studied history? Name me a more peaceful period and better time to be alive than the last 80 years.*

Or a socialist, communist or autocratic country where people have been wealthy compared to today’s standards and free to be whoever they want to be.

*have any wars in that period involved 2 secular, liberal, capitalist countries?

As you leave the Cloth Hall in Ypres, (destroyed by the Germans in WW1 and rebuilt to the exact same design afterwards), and now a museum to WW! there's a scrolling display headed "Since the end of the War To End All Wars there hasn't been a single day on this planet where a war hasn't been, or isn't being, fought" The scrolling display lists each one complete with dates.  It's quite frightening!
 
The fact that there has been no military conflicts between former foes within Europe is simply down to the formation and existence of the EU - you remember, that thing that the little englanders voted to leave.

You’d attribute anything to the EU, nothing to do with NATO is it?

Even if it's a combination it's working as kato said

[BillyStubbsTears]

I find it fascinating how so many people are determined to ignore the role of the EU in maintaining peace and democracy across a continent that has been riven by instability and friction for centuries.

Of course NATO also played a big role. But it didn't stop civil wars going on inside large parts of NATO states, like the UK and Spain. It didn't stop fascist military dictators seizing power in coups in Greece and Portugal when they were NATO members.

The entire purpose of the EU from its start was to make the countries of Europe realise that they had so much more to gain by collaborative neighbourliness than by fighting every other generation. In that it has been an astonishing success.

Why do you think Putin's number 1 aim is to weaken the EU?

[Not Now Kato]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

Have you seen the news recently? Unbelievable.

Have you studied history? Name me a more peaceful period and better time to be alive than the last 80 years.*

Or a socialist, communist or autocratic country where people have been wealthy compared to today’s standards and free to be whoever they want to be.

*have any wars in that period involved 2 secular, liberal, capitalist countries?

As you leave the Cloth Hall in Ypres, (destroyed by the Germans in WW1 and rebuilt to the exact same design afterwards), and now a museum to WW! there's a scrolling display headed "Since the end of the War To End All Wars there hasn't been a single day on this planet where a war hasn't been, or isn't being, fought" The scrolling display lists each one complete with dates.  It's quite frightening!
 
The fact that there has been no military conflicts between former foes within Europe is simply down to the formation and existence of the EU - you remember, that thing that the little englanders voted to leave.

You’d attribute anything to the EU, nothing to do with NATO is it?

Nope.

[Ldr]

spiral of ever increasing poverty. And then there is the discontent with that to pay for - benefits, violence, crime, and the health effects which are massive

Sounds like socialist Venezuela.

If you have any research studies that show socialism has greater long-term outcomes for poor people than capitalism then please, be my guest.

You completely missed the point and gut reacted. The point there is that capitalist systems survive on subordination and selfishness, divided and ruled. State capitalism or otherwise, just the same, ruled by gangsters.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from regard to their own interest.”  - Adam Smith.

Divide and rule? Capitalism has brought liberalism with it. And has contributed to the most stable geopolitical world too.

Have you seen the news recently? Unbelievable.

Have you studied history? Name me a more peaceful period and better time to be alive than the last 80 years.*

Or a socialist, communist or autocratic country where people have been wealthy compared to today’s standards and free to be whoever they want to be.

*have any wars in that period involved 2 secular, liberal, capitalist countries?

As you leave the Cloth Hall in Ypres, (destroyed by the Germans in WW1 and rebuilt to the exact same design afterwards), and now a museum to WW! there's a scrolling display headed "Since the end of the War To End All Wars there hasn't been a single day on this planet where a war hasn't been, or isn't being, fought" The scrolling display lists each one complete with dates.  It's quite frightening!
 
The fact that there has been no military conflicts between former foes within Europe is simply down to the formation and existence of the EU - you remember, that thing that the little englanders voted to leave.

You’d attribute anything to the EU, nothing to do with NATO is it?

Nope.

You are one brainwashed or deluded individual

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's a very nuanced issue.

Undoubtedly the presence of a common enemy in the Soviet Union did much to keep Western Europe united in NATO.

But membership of NATO didn't stop Turkey invading a sovereign European state in 1974. And it didn't stop Greece and Turkey, both NATO members, from pointing hundreds of tank barrels at each other across the border.

I'm not aware of any pair of EU countries that spent years on a hair trigger of going to war against each other.

[Ldr]

It's a very nuanced issue.

Undoubtedly the presence of a common enemy in the Soviet Union did much to keep Western Europe united in NATO.

But membership of NATO didn't stop Turkey invading a sovereign European state in 1974. And it didn't stop Greece and Turkey, both NATO members, from pointing hundreds of tank barrels at each other across the border.

I'm not aware of any pair of EU countries that spent years on a hair trigger of going to war against each other.

Agreed but to say NATO had nothing to do with it is simply delusional

[BillyStubbsTears]

I agree. But far more often you hear people insisting it's ALL down to NATO and the EU is irrelevant. Which to my mind is a far less defensible position

[Bristol Red Rover]

I find it fascinating how so many people are determined to ignore the role of the EU in maintaining peace and democracy across a continent that has been riven by instability and friction for centuries.

Of course NATO also played a big role. But it didn't stop civil wars going on inside large parts of NATO states, like the UK and Spain. It didn't stop fascist military dictators seizing power in coups in Greece and Portugal when they were NATO members.

The entire purpose of the EU from its start was to make the countries of Europe realise that they had so much more to gain by collaborative neighbourliness than by fighting every other generation. In that it has been an astonishing success.

Why do you think Putin's number 1 aim is to weaken the EU?

Putin has made it clear that he doesn't give a fig about the EU. NATO is the issue.

[Sprotyrover]

I agree. But far more often you hear people insisting it's ALL down to NATO and the EU is irrelevant. Which to my mind is a far less defensible position

It was the UK that reigned in the Turks in 1974, they told the Turks in no uncertain terms what would happen if there were excessive casualties, this caused the Turks to advance at 3 miles per day a snail pace, we opened the Dekerlia base up to Refugees from the North of Cypress and a humanitarian disaster was averted!