Predicting the election result.

[wilts rover]

Are you seriously suggesting that Starmer is a bigger liar (if he is a liar at all) than Boris Johnson?
That’s just ridiculous.
I assume your just fishing as nobody with any sense would post such a thing.

Yes, I am. Keir Starmer is a bigger political liar than Boris Johnson.

I'm fairly neutral on all this but that seems a really outlandish statement to make. The parties and the whatsapp stuff for starters, or are you making a point of separating political lies and just being a liar in general?

Where does one start with someone who has shredded just about every principle he once claimed to hold dear?

Mmmmmmmmmmm.

Hey, that's a good start!

I was being serious, and I wasn’t having a go at you BB.

But I would like to know what his lies are?

I said political lies. Anyone of us in the spotlight 24/7 could be accused of saying an off-the-cuff remark that can be construed as a lie.

I'm talking about politicians who go against almost every principle they claim to have had to gain political votes.

Starmer beats Johnson hands down at that.

The UK will remain in EU and under no circumstances shall the UK government leave the single market.

Boris Johnson's Keynote speech to the London Policy Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYWt9k1oDmY

Boris Johnson revealed his support for the European Union’s single market in “a pro-European” letter written the year before he decided to campaign for leave, it has emerged.

The likely prime minister’s pro-EU market sympathies were said to be revealed in a letter of condolence to the wife of the late Tory politician Sir Leon Brittan, who died in January 2015.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/17/boris-johnson-support-eu-revealed-leon-brittan-widow-letter

Writing exclusively for the Daily Telegraph, London Mayor Boris Johnson said that if Britain left the EU, “we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by Brussels”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052646/Quitting-the-EU-wont-solve-our-problems-says-Boris-Johnson.html

So was he lying then? Or when he lead Vote Leave in 2016?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

That's a change of policy.

An extreme one, but a change of policy nonetheless.

Voters can decide whether they agree with a politician who changes policy.

The problem comes when politicians lie about matters of objective truth and aren't held to account.

Johnson lies about objective truth as easily as he breathes. If you don't hold that to account, rational discussion and decision making is impossible. Whatever you say to try to examine him, he'll make up an alternative reality. That's how Johnson has lived his entire life. It's why he was sacked twice from early jobs, but that didn't stop him. Because it's not a choice with him it's part of what he is.

[Bentley Bullet]

Are you seriously suggesting that Starmer is a bigger liar (if he is a liar at all) than Boris Johnson?
That’s just ridiculous.
I assume your just fishing as nobody with any sense would post such a thing.

Yes, I am. Keir Starmer is a bigger political liar than Boris Johnson.

I'm fairly neutral on all this but that seems a really outlandish statement to make. The parties and the whatsapp stuff for starters, or are you making a point of separating political lies and just being a liar in general?

Where does one start with someone who has shredded just about every principle he once claimed to hold dear?

Mmmmmmmmmmm.

Hey, that's a good start!

I was being serious, and I wasn’t having a go at you BB.

But I would like to know what his lies are?

I said political lies. Anyone of us in the spotlight 24/7 could be accused of saying an off-the-cuff remark that can be construed as a lie.

I'm talking about politicians who go against almost every principle they claim to have had to gain political votes.

Starmer beats Johnson hands down at that.

The UK will remain in EU and under no circumstances shall the UK government leave the single market.

Boris Johnson's Keynote speech to the London Policy Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYWt9k1oDmY

Boris Johnson revealed his support for the European Union’s single market in “a pro-European” letter written the year before he decided to campaign for leave, it has emerged.

The likely prime minister’s pro-EU market sympathies were said to be revealed in a letter of condolence to the wife of the late Tory politician Sir Leon Brittan, who died in January 2015.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/17/boris-johnson-support-eu-revealed-leon-brittan-widow-letter

Writing exclusively for the Daily Telegraph, London Mayor Boris Johnson said that if Britain left the EU, “we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by Brussels”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052646/Quitting-the-EU-wont-solve-our-problems-says-Boris-Johnson.html

So was he lying then? Or when he lead Vote Leave in 2016?

That was his opinion at the time, and he changed it. Not unlike Starmer in that respect, although not in the way Starmer went against everything he pretended to believe in when he stabbed Corbyn in the back, and has since changed his mind about almost everything he promised since.

[tommy toes]

Wilts.

That's a change of policy.

An extreme one, but a change of policy nonetheless.

Voters can decide whether they agree with a politician who changes policy.

The problem comes when politicians lie about matters of objective truth and aren't held to account.

Johnson lies about objective truth as easily as he breathes. If you don't hold that to account, rational discussion and decision making is impossible. Whatever you say to try to examine him, he'll make up an alternative reality. That's how Johnson has lived his entire life. It's why he was sacked twice from early jobs, but that didn't stop him. Because it's not a choice with him it's part of what he is.

A good example of the was when he was asked what he did to relax.
He came up with a cock and bull story about making buses out of matchboxes or some such.
You could see him making it up as he was saying it, but he just couldn’t help himself.

[IDM]

Ok, that’s your spin on it.

However I would think most folks can see a difference between changing your views to match the (changing) political situation and to gain votes, and that of downright fibs.?

The first is politicking, and individuals can decide how much or how little importance they put on it.  Are they abandoning principles or reacting to developing political realities?

And then there are outright I wasn’t there it wasn’t me lies, subsequently proven to be false.

Some Labour supporters actually want Starmer to turn his back on the manifesto that gets him into power, for a more left-wing approach.

That in my opinion is not carrying out what is promised, but unbelievably is supported by some of those who wanted a re-vote when they claimed the same thing had happened after Brexit!

So, that’s something some Labour supporters want, not actually something Starmer did differently to what was promised?  Something he might (or might not) do in the future?

Not sure how that contributes to Starmer being a political liar, for something he hasn’t yet done.???

[Bentley Bullet]

Wilts.

That's a change of policy.

An extreme one, but a change of policy nonetheless.

Voters can decide whether they agree with a politician who changes policy.

The problem comes when politicians lie about matters of objective truth and aren't held to account.

Johnson lies about objective truth as easily as he breathes. If you don't hold that to account, rational discussion and decision making is impossible. Whatever you say to try to examine him, he'll make up an alternative reality. That's how Johnson has lived his entire life. It's why he was sacked twice from early jobs, but that didn't stop him. Because it's not a choice with him it's part of what he is.

A good example of the was when he was asked what he did to relax.
He came up with a cock and bull story about making buses out of matchboxes or some such.
You could see him making it up as he was saying it, but he just couldn’t help himself.

It's called a sense of humour in a light-hearted conversation.

Winston Churchill once said he'd be sober in the morning.......... Lying bas**rd.

[Bentley Bullet]

Ok, that’s your spin on it.

However I would think most folks can see a difference between changing your views to match the (changing) political situation and to gain votes, and that of downright fibs.?

The first is politicking, and individuals can decide how much or how little importance they put on it.  Are they abandoning principles or reacting to developing political realities?

And then there are outright I wasn’t there it wasn’t me lies, subsequently proven to be false.

Some Labour supporters actually want Starmer to turn his back on the manifesto that gets him into power, for a more left-wing approach.

That in my opinion is not carrying out what is promised, but unbelievably is supported by some of those who wanted a re-vote when they claimed the same thing had happened after Brexit!

So, that’s something some Labour supporters want, not actually something Starmer did differently to what was promised?  Something he might (or might not) do in the future?

Not sure how that contributes to Starmer being a political liar, for something he hasn’t yet done.???

Starmer abandoned some of his key promises when he became Labour leader.

[wilts rover]

Ok, that’s your spin on it.

However I would think most folks can see a difference between changing your views to match the (changing) political situation and to gain votes, and that of downright fibs.?

The first is politicking, and individuals can decide how much or how little importance they put on it.  Are they abandoning principles or reacting to developing political realities?

And then there are outright I wasn’t there it wasn’t me lies, subsequently proven to be false.

Some Labour supporters actually want Starmer to turn his back on the manifesto that gets him into power, for a more left-wing approach.

That in my opinion is not carrying out what is promised, but unbelievably is supported by some of those who wanted a re-vote when they claimed the same thing had happened after Brexit!

So, that’s something some Labour supporters want, not actually something Starmer did differently to what was promised?  Something he might (or might not) do in the future?

Not sure how that contributes to Starmer being a political liar, for something he hasn’t yet done.???

Starmer abandoned some of his key promises when he became Labour leader.

Johnson said 'under no circumstances shall the UK government leave the single market' and then campaigned for the UK government to leave the single market.

If you dont think that's abandoning your principles then there's no point arguing with you.

[Bentley Bullet]

Ok, that’s your spin on it.

However I would think most folks can see a difference between changing your views to match the (changing) political situation and to gain votes, and that of downright fibs.?

The first is politicking, and individuals can decide how much or how little importance they put on it.  Are they abandoning principles or reacting to developing political realities?

And then there are outright I wasn’t there it wasn’t me lies, subsequently proven to be false.

Some Labour supporters actually want Starmer to turn his back on the manifesto that gets him into power, for a more left-wing approach.

That in my opinion is not carrying out what is promised, but unbelievably is supported by some of those who wanted a re-vote when they claimed the same thing had happened after Brexit!

So, that’s something some Labour supporters want, not actually something Starmer did differently to what was promised?  Something he might (or might not) do in the future?

Not sure how that contributes to Starmer being a political liar, for something he hasn’t yet done.???

Starmer abandoned some of his key promises when he became Labour leader.

Johnson said 'under no circumstances shall the UK government leave the single market' and then campaigned for the UK government to leave the single market.

If you dont think that's abandoning your principles then there's no point arguing with you.

Like I said to BST earlier, your continued condemnation of a career liar would be applaudable but your support for the biggest career liar of all makes it laughable.

[DonnyNoel]

Ok, that’s your spin on it.

However I would think most folks can see a difference between changing your views to match the (changing) political situation and to gain votes, and that of downright fibs.?

The first is politicking, and individuals can decide how much or how little importance they put on it.  Are they abandoning principles or reacting to developing political realities?

And then there are outright I wasn’t there it wasn’t me lies, subsequently proven to be false.

Some Labour supporters actually want Starmer to turn his back on the manifesto that gets him into power, for a more left-wing approach.

That in my opinion is not carrying out what is promised, but unbelievably is supported by some of those who wanted a re-vote when they claimed the same thing had happened after Brexit!

So, that’s something some Labour supporters want, not actually something Starmer did differently to what was promised?  Something he might (or might not) do in the future?

Not sure how that contributes to Starmer being a political liar, for something he hasn’t yet done.???

Starmer abandoned some of his key promises when he became Labour leader.

Johnson said 'under no circumstances shall the UK government leave the single market' and then campaigned for the UK government to leave the single market.

If you dont think that's abandoning your principles then there's no point arguing with you.

Like I said to BST earlier, your continued condemnation of a career liar would be applaudable but your support for the biggest career liar of all makes it laughable.

WTF has Nick Clegg go to do with any of this?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's a lie.

https://x.com/GillianKeegan/status/1797252310990499990

How does a policy that hasn't been put into practice yet, by an Opposition party cause a school to close before the policy is announced.

That's a lie in an issue of Objective Truth.

Totally different from changing a policy.

[Bentley Bullet]

Ok, that’s your spin on it.

However I would think most folks can see a difference between changing your views to match the (changing) political situation and to gain votes, and that of downright fibs.?

The first is politicking, and individuals can decide how much or how little importance they put on it.  Are they abandoning principles or reacting to developing political realities?

And then there are outright I wasn’t there it wasn’t me lies, subsequently proven to be false.

Some Labour supporters actually want Starmer to turn his back on the manifesto that gets him into power, for a more left-wing approach.

That in my opinion is not carrying out what is promised, but unbelievably is supported by some of those who wanted a re-vote when they claimed the same thing had happened after Brexit!

So, that’s something some Labour supporters want, not actually something Starmer did differently to what was promised?  Something he might (or might not) do in the future?

Not sure how that contributes to Starmer being a political liar, for something he hasn’t yet done.???

Starmer abandoned some of his key promises when he became Labour leader.

Johnson said 'under no circumstances shall the UK government leave the single market' and then campaigned for the UK government to leave the single market.

If you dont think that's abandoning your principles then there's no point arguing with you.

Like I said to BST earlier, your continued condemnation of a career liar would be applaudable but your support for the biggest career liar of all makes it laughable.

WTF has Nick Clegg go to do with any of this?

About the same as Boris Johnson when considering voting for Keir Starmer as PM.

f**k all!

[DonnyNoel]

Ok, that’s your spin on it.

However I would think most folks can see a difference between changing your views to match the (changing) political situation and to gain votes, and that of downright fibs.?

The first is politicking, and individuals can decide how much or how little importance they put on it.  Are they abandoning principles or reacting to developing political realities?

And then there are outright I wasn’t there it wasn’t me lies, subsequently proven to be false.

Some Labour supporters actually want Starmer to turn his back on the manifesto that gets him into power, for a more left-wing approach.

That in my opinion is not carrying out what is promised, but unbelievably is supported by some of those who wanted a re-vote when they claimed the same thing had happened after Brexit!

So, that’s something some Labour supporters want, not actually something Starmer did differently to what was promised?  Something he might (or might not) do in the future?

Not sure how that contributes to Starmer being a political liar, for something he hasn’t yet done.???

Starmer abandoned some of his key promises when he became Labour leader.

Johnson said 'under no circumstances shall the UK government leave the single market' and then campaigned for the UK government to leave the single market.

If you dont think that's abandoning your principles then there's no point arguing with you.

Like I said to BST earlier, your continued condemnation of a career liar would be applaudable but your support for the biggest career liar of all makes it laughable.

WTF has Nick Clegg go to do with any of this?

About the same as Boris Johnson when considering voting for Keir Starmer as PM.

f**k all!

Why's KS a bigger hypothetical liar than a prove liar like NC?

[Bentley Bullet]

Who said owt about KS being a hypothetical liar?

Nick Clegg is no longer in politics, so his being a liar is rather scraping the bottom of the barrel as a reason to vote for Starmer.

........ Same with Boris Johnson.

[IDM]

Ok, that’s your spin on it.

However I would think most folks can see a difference between changing your views to match the (changing) political situation and to gain votes, and that of downright fibs.?

The first is politicking, and individuals can decide how much or how little importance they put on it.  Are they abandoning principles or reacting to developing political realities?

And then there are outright I wasn’t there it wasn’t me lies, subsequently proven to be false.

Some Labour supporters actually want Starmer to turn his back on the manifesto that gets him into power, for a more left-wing approach.

That in my opinion is not carrying out what is promised, but unbelievably is supported by some of those who wanted a re-vote when they claimed the same thing had happened after Brexit!

So, that’s something some Labour supporters want, not actually something Starmer did differently to what was promised?  Something he might (or might not) do in the future?

Not sure how that contributes to Starmer being a political liar, for something he hasn’t yet done.???

Starmer abandoned some of his key promises when he became Labour leader.

Such as.?

Today the Labour mp on the morning bbc politics programme said they would reduce net immigration. Pressed to give a target she wouldn’t put a number on it.  Why?  Because if they said it would go down by (say - my example) 50,000 in the first year of a Labour government, but they only achieved 20,000, they would be accused of lying. 

Tories claimed to be building 40 “new” hospitals.  But they haven’t, have they?  Oh but refurbs and extensions count.?? Really.??

Starmer had a beer and a pizza in the office at the end of a working day.

The government had a series of “events” which turned out to be parties (email invitations about bringing bottles etc) which the PM lied about despite having been on the telly nearly every night telling us how to behave whilst blatantly ignoring their own rules.  Meanwhile our late Queen sits by herself, at her husband of over 70 years’ funeral.  Dignity - at a time of immense personal sorrow - personified, whilst the Tories pissed on the lockdown laws.

But hey, Starmer is somehow worse.?? 

I don’t doubt he’s had some changes of opinion and direction but by Christ he can’t be any worse than the current lot.!!

[Bentley Bullet]

F**king hell, pick the bones out of this lot.

https://www.bigissue.com/news/politics/keir-starmer-broken-promises-tuition-fees-nationalisation-u-turn/

[IDM]

So most of that talks about changes to policies set out 4 years ago, and the reason for most of the subsequent changes is a reaction to the changing financial situation.  In simple terms, Labour would inherit a situation where they can’t afford to do what they ideally wanted to, 4 years before.

Would you rather they made promises based on a less than credible financial outlook?

Are they reacting to a changing situation, or just breaking promises?

[Bentley Bullet]

So don't you think COVID and the invasion of Ukraine changed the country's financial situation?

[IDM]

Of course it did, so it makes sense that what Labour hoped to do in 2020 isn’t all affordable now??

They usually get panned by folks saying they can’t pay for what they promise.  Now they say they won’t make promises they can’t fund, or they change because of finances.

Where’s the lies.??

And by the way, I said a changing financial situation, not what those changes were.

[Bentley Bullet]

So, what Labour hoped to do in 2020 will be carried out after they gain power in July?

[IDM]

So, what Labour hoped to do in 2020 will be carried out after they gain power in July?

Not necessarily if they’ve been forced to change.

But you would expect them to implement when in government what they say now that they would do.  Somethings might not work out but would there be a credible explanation at the time?  More likely with Labour than with the Tories.

What point are you actually trying to make here.?

I’m not seeing owt about Starmer being a huge political liar..  more of a realist.  I expect he will make mistakes too, as they all do.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Labour will set out its manifesto and go about trying to implement it, as all Governments do.

People can then assess whether they think it good or bad in an election in 5 years time. If Labour turn out to have deceived people, the people can vote for change.

The Brexit vote was won on a bed of straight out lies and deception about how it would be implemented and what the consequences would be. How do we hold people responsible for that, now the Liar In Chief has moved on to a 100k per month job peddling lies in the papers. Which of course is how he started.

[Bentley Bullet]

But the Tories were forced to change, because of COVID and the Ukraine invasion! Surely, be Christ that was a credible explanation!

[Bentley Bullet]

Labour will set out its manifesto and go about trying to implement it, as all Governments do.

People can then assess whether they think it good or bad in an election in 5 years time. If Labour turn out to have deceived people, the people can vote for change.

The Brexit vote was won on a bed of straight out lies and deception about how it would be implemented and what the consequences would be. How do we hold people responsible for that, now the Liar In Chief has moved on to a 100k per month job peddling lies in the papers. Which of course is how he started.

Na. The Brexit referendum question was: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

1) Remain a member of the European Union

2) Leave the European Union

[IDM]

But the Tories were forced to change, because of COVID and the Ukraine invasion! Surely, be Christ that was a credible explanation!

For some of the financial issues yes, but not for Johnson’s lies..

As for the hospitals, the Tory promise of 40 “new” hospitals never actually included them all being new.  The plans didn’t change to be less than 40 “new” hospitals due to financial changes did they.?

And the mini budget under Truss in 2022 was badly thought out and whilst never delivered anyway, the overnight impact was to trash interest rates and hit mortgages.

Plus you were calling Starmer a liar, when all he has supposedly done is change direction - he’s not been in power yet to see what he actually does or doesn’t implement.??

[Bentley Bullet]

32 of the 40 promised new hospitals have been built. The promise was to have all 40 completed between 2021 and 2030.

If you think Starmer says nothing but the truth then your trust in him is greater than probably half of the members of the party he leads.

[Donnywolf]

The trouble with the Referendum result ( apart from the obvious) was that it was far too close and I'm surprised Cameron didn't say " for such a massive move to be carried out we will require a Voting majority of at least 66 % before we change the status quo"

I'm even MORE surprised that the Govt havent legislated for that to try and ensure B***** cannot be undone with a 52 rejoin 48 stay out vote

I have been sick of being called a remoaner by the Media for wanting another vote and I think it perfectly democratic to do so given that Farage made it clear that should the vote be close , even 51 % Remain and 49 % that he would continue to campaign until Leave won

If it's good enough for a 7 times failed MP it's good enough for me

[Hounslowrover]

According to the NAO, 11 are judged new hospitals, while 20 meet other elements of DHSC’s definition.  One project in Dorset does not meet the definition.

[ravenrover]

32 of the 40 promised new hospitals have been built. The promise was to have all 40 completed between 2021 and 2030.

If you think Starmer says nothing but the truth then your trust in him is greater than probably half of the members of the party he leads.

When someone promises 40 NEW hospitals do you think it acceptable to include renovations or new wings as a completely NEW hospital?

[BillyStubbsTears]

According to the NAO, 11 are judged new hospitals, while 20 meet other elements of DHSC’s definition.  One project in Dorset does not meet the definition.

Johnson's Govt instructed civil servants to call refurbishments "new hospitals" in all correspondence. Truly Orwellian abuse of language. But what do you expect from someone with his relationship with the truth?