Gareth Southgate

[Goole Rover]

You’ve been brain washed by the masses.

[Jonathan]

https://www.thetimes.com/sport/football/article/gareth-southgate-right-time-to-leave-england-job-km6sm8drw

A fair and balanced take, albeit potentially uncomfortable reading for the armchair experts that new how to do his job better.

[BobG]

Can somebody make the pay wall go away? Or copy and paste?

Cheers!

BobG

[Jonathan]

Can somebody make the pay wall go away? Or copy and paste?

Cheers!

BobG

The statement announcing the end was typical. Well written (because he actually wrote it) and classy. It was generous to the players and backroom staff, especially his assistant, Steve Holland. Gareth Southgate also talked about his devotion to England, the country and the team. He was the kid standing in front of the mirror wearing his Bryan Robson England replica kit. He will be the grandad taking his grandchildren to England games.

I inclined to the view that it was the right time, but would never have said that to him. There were enough folk telling him what to do; pub experts managing from their perches on the high stool, convinced about everything, most of all their own righteousness. They learnt to say “low block”, “double pivot”, “false nine” and if only Southgate had had the wisdom to consult them.

Colleagues, emboldened by the same sense of knowing, praised Southgate for creating a good team culture and improving performances but also said that tactically he was inept. Consider that these are people who, for the most part, have never managed a Sunday league team and certainly never managed a team of professionals. They have 1 per cent of the information that he had but pontificated with 100 per cent certainty, and the security of never needing to put their deep understanding to the test.

Southgate became the most successful men’s manager since Alf Ramsey but after four major tournaments, decided he should not try a fifth
Southgate became the most successful men’s manager since Alf Ramsey but after four major tournaments, decided he should not try a fifth.
I have known Southgate since his playing days at Aston Villa and Middlesbrough, and even then he obsessed about tactics and the way teams set up. If you truly believe it was all about the team shape or the timing of the substitutions, ask yourself why when England did play well in the first halves against Switzerland and the Netherlands, they wilted in the second periods? It is not rocket science.

We’ve spoken a lot over the years, although not about the reasons for his resignation. So file the following under “educated guesswork”.


Southgate is both self-deprecating and realistic. He has the ability to step outside himself and see with detachment situations in which he’s emotionally involved. That voice would have told him he had four chances to get England over the line at finals. Four is more than most get and while his record might have entitled him to another, and the FA was convinced he should continue, he disagreed.

Of even greater weight would have been his fear that had he stayed, opposition to his presence would have grown. He loved his eight years of managing England, building relationships with players for whom he still has huge respect. Crushing disappointment came with the job. He would have expected that. The only disagreeable times came in those moments when he felt that a sizeable minority of England fans just didn’t want him as the team’s manager.

Southgate would not have wanted fan discontent with him to affect the players he has nurtured.

Two stand out. That May evening at Molineux last year when Hungary thrashed an understrength England side 4-0 and some in the crowd sang, “You don’t know what you’re doing.” He was asked about the discontent. “Football is emotional,” he said. “People pay to come and watch. They’re going to give an opinion. The team weren’t able to deliver tonight, [that is] my responsibility. If the flak comes my way then I have to deal with that. It’s not realistic to have had the ride I’ve had for five years and not have bad nights, difficult nights.”

That was him. Always intelligent. Never defensive. Inside, it hurt. Not just the personal nature of the criticism but the sense that if he became a divisive figure, that would make it harder for the players. Now it takes a particular kind of manager to say “that’s not my problem”, but Southgate is not that man. When England fans turn against the manager, that affects the players, makes it harder for them to relax and play their best.


He saw it again after the reaction to the scoreless draw against Slovenia and he had no wish to see it in the future. There was only one way to ensure he wouldn’t.

I’m guessing too that his family would have been a factor in the decision. When he returned from Qatar after the 2022 World Cup, Southgate discussed with his wife, Alison, and their two grown-up children the question of whether he should stay or go. They surprised him with their enthusiasm for his remaining in the job. They reassured they were coping just fine with having him in one of the most contentious jobs in the lands.

I don’t know, but it would be a surprise if the family message was not more nuanced after the experience in Germany. What wife and kids are going to feel OK seeing England fans chuck beer at their loved one, when they know what he has given to the team over the past eight years? Seeing that grim episode play out, I don’t imagine I was the only one thinking England didn’t deserve their high-quality manager.

Some fans showed their dismay after the 0-0 draw with Slovenia by throwing drinks at Southgate and his players, confident they could have done better
Some fans showed their dismay after the 0-0 draw with Slovenia by throwing drinks at Southgate and his players, confident they could have done better
RYAN PIERSE – UEFA/UEFA VIA GETTY IMAGES
Before you now open the door to that chamber in your brain where all the tactical insights are stored, consider how England performed at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar. Iran, USA, Wales, Senegal and France; five games and four excellent performances. No one complained then about the manager’s cautious approach, or the way the team were set up or or the paucity of “shots on target”, or the failure to bring on replacements earlier.

That tournament was played in November and December, at a time of year when England’s players were fit and fresh. They weren’t at the end of a gruelling Premier League season. Do you recall what Rodri did after Manchester City’s 3-3 draw in a Champions League semi-final at the Bernabéu Stadium in April? He said he was tired and needed a rest, that ideally he wouldn’t play against Luton Town in the next game.


Rodri had played a lot, but not as many minutes as Phil Foden at that point last season. Pep Guardiola listened. Rodri didn’t play against Luton. Have you ever heard an England player publicly tell his club manager that he needed to be rested? Me neither. I remember Southgate saying after Russia six years ago that England’s players needed to take responsibility for their physical conditioning to ensure they weren’t fatigued when turning up for England duty. You could say English players are too honest, too willing to play every game. That may be true, but it’s hurt the national team.

As for Southgate himself, he will be fine. He is an excellent manager now waiting for his next opportunity.

[David Walsh - The Sunday Times (strange that the paywall didn’t apply when reading via X)]

[Lesonthewest]

Of course it’s negative.
We get to the final for the first time ever and you’re slagging off the manager. That is baffling

You are making things up again which you keep doing, where did I 'slag' the manager off, your little play on words again to try & strengthen your argument. So it's not negative or slagging off is it really, it's just statement of fact.

[BobG]

Thank you Jonathan. An illuminating read. And yes. All of us, each and every one, pontificate sometimes about things we are neither qualified nor informed enough to judge - politics is often a good example. The predilection of C2DE's to make a lot of noise in the process and to display their lack of wisdom by throwing beer over the man who has given them more highlights in 8 years than any predecesor managed over the previous 50 years demonstrates just how ill informed they are about England's position in the world.

Cheers

BobG

[dickos1]

He got to 2 finals with some of the best squads England have ever assembled. This was down to the FA changing the whole set up and the massive improvement in young English players.

If he’d got to 2 finals with Scott Parker, Danny Rose, Glenn Johnson, Gary Cahill, Darren Bent etc, everyone would rightly be praising him as a miracle worker.

But you have to take in to account the resources available to the manager when judging his performance.

Is this squad better than
Neville, Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, lampard, Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Owen, Rooney?
No it isn’t and that squad never got past a quarter final.
To suggest we only got to a final because he had a good squad is a load of rubbish.
He transformed the whole atmosphere of the squad, made people want to play, made them relaxed, made it more like a club.
The fact we have such a squad with young talent is down to him, plenty of managers would t have brought these kids through as quickly and as smoothly as he has

[Chris Black come back]

Thank you Jonathan. An illuminating read. And yes. All of us, each and every one, pontificate sometimes about things we are neither qualified nor informed enough to judge - politics is often a good example. The predilection of C2DE's to make a lot of noise in the process and to display their lack of wisdom by throwing beer over the man who has given them more highlights in 8 years than any predecesor managed over the previous 50 years demonstrates just how ill informed they are about England's position in the world.

Cheers

BobG

With respect sir, you have no idea about the social class of any of those involved. Stereotypes are not an objective measure to assess.

[Little Wolf]

He got to 2 finals with some of the best squads England have ever assembled. This was down to the FA changing the whole set up and the massive improvement in young English players.

If he’d got to 2 finals with Scott Parker, Danny Rose, Glenn Johnson, Gary Cahill, Darren Bent etc, everyone would rightly be praising him as a miracle worker.

But you have to take in to account the resources available to the manager when judging his performance.

Is this squad better than
Neville, Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, lampard, Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Owen, Rooney?
No it isn’t and that squad never got past a quarter final.
To suggest we only got to a final because he had a good squad is a load of rubbish.
He transformed the whole atmosphere of the squad, made people want to play, made them relaxed, made it more like a club.
The fact we have such a squad with young talent is down to him, plenty of managers would t have brought these kids through as quickly and as smoothly as he has

The fact we have such excellent youth coming up through the system is down to the elite level training the FA introduced over 20 years ago and premier league clubs, based on the dutch total football model, remember it takes many years for a 5 year old to become an elite footballer its not done overnight or in 8 years, you cannot even manage a kids team on a Sunday now without doing your FA level 1 coaching badge, i have been to Leicester City's youth set up, multi million pound facility, top level coaches and it was for 8 year olds when i went, the time and money spent on developing talented youngsters in this country is unbelievable, that is why the amount of talent coming through the system is so good and its only going to get better as the premier league is the richest league in the world

[silent majority]

He got to 2 finals with some of the best squads England have ever assembled. This was down to the FA changing the whole set up and the massive improvement in young English players.

If he’d got to 2 finals with Scott Parker, Danny Rose, Glenn Johnson, Gary Cahill, Darren Bent etc, everyone would rightly be praising him as a miracle worker.

But you have to take in to account the resources available to the manager when judging his performance.

Is this squad better than
Neville, Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, lampard, Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Owen, Rooney?
No it isn’t and that squad never got past a quarter final.
To suggest we only got to a final because he had a good squad is a load of rubbish.
He transformed the whole atmosphere of the squad, made people want to play, made them relaxed, made it more like a club.
The fact we have such a squad with young talent is down to him, plenty of managers would t have brought these kids through as quickly and as smoothly as he has

I've said this before, I do sympathise with your position, but to completely ignore the significant contribution that St Georges Park has played and the incredible investment in the Elite Player Performance Plan is more than an oversight. GS has done well, but without any of the two items I've mentioned he would have performed as badly as everybody else.

[dickos1]

He got to 2 finals with some of the best squads England have ever assembled. This was down to the FA changing the whole set up and the massive improvement in young English players.

If he’d got to 2 finals with Scott Parker, Danny Rose, Glenn Johnson, Gary Cahill, Darren Bent etc, everyone would rightly be praising him as a miracle worker.

But you have to take in to account the resources available to the manager when judging his performance.

Is this squad better than
Neville, Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, lampard, Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Owen, Rooney?
No it isn’t and that squad never got past a quarter final.
To suggest we only got to a final because he had a good squad is a load of rubbish.
He transformed the whole atmosphere of the squad, made people want to play, made them relaxed, made it more like a club.
The fact we have such a squad with young talent is down to him, plenty of managers would t have brought these kids through as quickly and as smoothly as he has

I've said this before, I do sympathise with your position, but to completely ignore the significant contribution that St Georges Park has played and the incredible investment in the Elite Player Performance Plan is more than an oversight. GS has done well, but without any of the two items I've mentioned he would have performed as badly as everybody else.

I’m not sure I’ve ignored anything.

[ncRover]

Well this is absolutely miles better from England.

I wonder why?

[Chris Black come back]

It does look good but Ireland are a poor side.

[dickos1]

Well this is absolutely miles better from England.

I wonder why?

It’s Ireland,
Come back to me after a major tournament

[Padge_DRFC]

We're playing a championship side basically.

Good to see Grealish back

[ncRover]

Ireland are no worse than Slovakia and Slovenia and we were horrendous in both those games.

[Chris Black come back]

Other than they both qualified for Euro 2024 and Ireland didn’t.

[ncRover]

Ok *aren’t much worse

The point I’m making is that the team selection and patterns of play are miles better. The absence of that in the euros was not because we were playing Slovenia and Slovakia instead of Ireland.

[NickDRFC]

Ok *aren’t much worse

The point I’m making is that the team selection and patterns of play are miles better. The absence of that in the euros was not because we were playing Slovenia and Slovakia instead of Ireland.

People will say the team selection is miles better but if Southgate had stayed on and picked Maguire and Grealish in his first game there would have been uproar.

I say this as someone who thought it was time for Southgate to step aside as well.

[Goole Rover]

Well this is absolutely miles better from England.

I wonder why?

You’re watching a different game to me my friend.

[DRFC_AjA]

Great to see some attacking football. And nobody gives a stuff about whether he sang the anthem or not, except the gutter press who can't help but try and put down an England manager

[dickos1]

Ireland are no worse than Slovakia and Slovenia and we were horrendous in both those games.

What about all the games like wining 3-1 in Scotland, beating Bosnia 3-0, beating Malta 4-0,
All happened recently

[sedwardsdrfc]

Stopped watching but from what I saw it was better.

But is that because we are better or Ireland just don’t know what they are doing. Too early to tell but I’m not against giving Carsley the job. Makes sense to keep the progression of coaches at international level imo

[Ye-Aul-Tavern]

Now now, go easy on us Irish!

First game under new management for us too. Ireland v England is like Man City v Ipswich. I would have taken 0-2 after twenty minutes. Kelleher is a great keeper who has wasted his career at Liverpool.

[Goole Rover]

Great to see some attacking football. And nobody gives a stuff about whether he sang the anthem or not, except the gutter press who can't help but try and put down an England manager

I do.
I’m not gutter press, I’ve served my country and if you don’t like the freedom that you should enjoy clear off over the channel, do an exchange with someone who would appreciate our democracy.

[BobG]

Democracy? Really???

BobG

[DRFC_AjA]

Great to see some attacking football. And nobody gives a stuff about whether he sang the anthem or not, except the gutter press who can't help but try and put down an England manager

I do.
I’m not gutter press, I’ve served my country and if you don’t like the freedom that you should enjoy clear off over the channel, do an exchange with someone who would appreciate our democracy.

Should Klopp sing the anthem if he gets the job?. Either way most ordinary fans couldn't care less. Gareth sang it a lot and won....

No relationship between serving your country and expecting an Irish man to sing the anthem against Ireland

Who would want the England job if the press try their hardest to put down a temp on the morning of his first match 

[VivaRovers]

I do.
I’m not gutter press, I’ve served my country and if you don’t like the freedom that you should enjoy clear off over the channel, do an exchange with someone who would appreciate our democracy.

The sort of democracy that allows you to choose whether to sing the national anthem or not?

[Goole Rover]

Great to see some attacking football. And nobody gives a stuff about whether he sang the anthem or not, except the gutter press who can't help but try and put down an England manager

I do.
I’m not gutter press, I’ve served my country and if you don’t like the freedom that you should enjoy clear off over the channel, do an exchange with someone who would appreciate our democracy.

Should Klopp sing the anthem if he gets the job?. Either way most ordinary fans couldn't care less. Gareth sang it a lot and won....

No relationship between serving your country and expecting an Irish man to sing the anthem against Ireland

Who would want the England job if the press try their hardest to put down a temp on the morning of his first match 

An Irishman ? Sorry I didn’t realise that they’ve moved Birmingham to Ireland.

[EasyforDennis]

Great to see some attacking football. And nobody gives a stuff about whether he sang the anthem or not, except the gutter press who can't help but try and put down an England manager

I do.
I’m not gutter press, I’ve served my country and if you don’t like the freedom that you should enjoy clear off over the channel, do an exchange with someone who would appreciate our democracy.

Should Klopp sing the anthem if he gets the job?. Either way most ordinary fans couldn't care less. Gareth sang it a lot and won....

No relationship between serving your country and expecting an Irish man to sing the anthem against Ireland

Who would want the England job if the press try their hardest to put down a temp on the morning of his first match 

An Irishman ? Sorry I didn’t realise that they’ve moved Birmingham to Ireland.

I think it was about the same time they moved Jamaica to the UK so John Barnes could be picked for England.