Ukraine

[ravenrover]

Now claimed that Old bo!!ock chops Gove came up with the idea

[Colin C No.3]

Utterly embarrassing and humiliating to have someone from a country under invasion have to speak to the UK PM like this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1506351163335233539

I disagree BST.

Boris deserves & needs to be ‘called out’ when he makes such scandalous comparisons. I believe there was a former member of the Ukrainian government (I may be wrong about their position but they were of a ‘pertinent position’) present in the room when Bozo made his speech who for whatever reason didn’t condemn this particular passage of the speech.

When Senior Tories express their disdain along with politicians throughout Europe, Bienkov’s condemnation of such a crass ‘comment’,  as former President of Ukraine, carries far more clout than any other voice & he did so with an eloquence & pertinence Bozo could only ever dream of possessing.

[rich1471]

News just coming out is Boris was at a party with russian donars to his party hours before Russia invaided Ukraine ,shocking if true ,what does the man have to do before his own people turn on him

[Colin C No.3]

We then have Johnson’s ‘Fagg’ Jacob Rees-‘Smog’, claiming that the war in Ukraine shows just what “disproportionate fluff’ the Downing Street Partygate scandal was.

Yet another crass, but typical of the man, (I use the term man in its broadest context) remark to make as, to use Bienkov’s remarks regarding Bozo comparison to Brexit with the war raging in Ukraine, no one ever died at a garden party.

[BobG]

He should be strung up. By his testicles.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

We then have Johnson’s ‘Fagg’ Jacob Rees-‘Smog’, claiming that the war in Ukraine shows just what “disproportionate fluff’ the Downing Street Partygate scandal was.

Yet another crass, but typical of the man, (I use the term man in its broadest context) remark to make as, to use Bienkov’s remarks regarding Bozo comparison to Brexit with the war raging in Ukraine, no one ever died at a garden party.

Bienkov is the Tweeter. The man in the video is Petr Poroshenko, the previous Ukraine PM.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Listen to what Sunak is saying here.

Watch Johnson's face.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1506614564510654467

Just when you think he couldn't be more of an embarrassing insult to the nation...

[belton rover]

Listen to what Sunak is saying here.

Watch Johnson's face.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1506614564510654467

Just when you think he couldn't be more of an embarrassing insult to the nation...

It is embarrassing.
What’s also embarrassing is your determination to relentlessly use this delicate, emotive, deeply worrying yet predominantly filled with mature discussion thread, as yet another vehicle to ridicule the government.
Do you have no shame at all?

[ravenrover]

Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think

[belton rover]

Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think

My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.

[River Don]

There are signs the tide of this war is turning.

Ukrain has regained some ground and there are tentative reports that Ukraine maybe about to encircle and cut off a chunk of the Russian army to the north of Kyiv.

Not sure if this is good news or not. I fear what Putins reaction might be.

[danumdon]

There are signs the tide of this war is turning.

Ukrain has regained some ground and there are tentative reports that Ukraine maybe about to encircle and cut off a chunk of the Russian army to the north of Kyiv.

Not sure if this is good news or not. I fear what Putins reaction might be.

I would imagine that these reports have been given airtime in the west for a reason, that being to exert steady pressure on the Russians that as this news starts to permeate into their society we are hoping for some sort of a mental breakdown for their war machine. Reports of frostbitten troops loosing the will to continue will have the same effect

The arms supply's going into Ukraine now from the west must be ramping up to a level where some sort of endgame for this part of the war is beginning.

I'm hoping for all our sake's that we have calculated correctly with this despot and we have deduced that he will not use nuclear weapons and will attempt some sort of face saving negotiation.

Lets just all hope the tide is really turning for the better.

[River Don]

Another report suggests, when totalled up dead, wounded and captured personnel, the Russian losses amount to something like 15% of the total they went in with.

Add to that those teenage conscripts, tired, hungry, frost bitten and completely demoralised.

You can see how the Russians are struggling

[BillyStubbsTears]

Russia has had a policy for a while called "Escalate to De-escalate".

It's based on the idea that if Russia is losing a war with NATO, they "escalate" by using a very limited number of small nukes.

NATO has war gamed this, and from what I've read,  every time the result has been that NATO swallows it and backs off - that's the De-escalate outcome that Russia desires. Or. NATO doesn't swallow it...and in the war gaming, that leads to an out of control escalation. 

Russia's idea is that because NATO wouldn't risk an increased escalation, Escalate to De-escalate is a rational policy.

It is also said to have been their plan to re-take the Baltics. The idea was to hit them with overwhelming conventional force and blitzkrieg them. Russia would overwhelm them before NATO could respond. But because the Baltics are NATO states, NATO would be treaty-bound to invade to force Russia out. The Escalte to De-escalate plan involved Russia using a small nuke as part of their invasion to send a message to NATO: See what we are prepared to do? Be sensible. Accept the fait accompli.

How that fits in to the Ukraine situation I don't know and I'm not sure anyone does.  NATO will not get directly involved in Ukraine so Escalte to De-escalate doesn't directly apply. But the fact this has been a policy is terrifying if Russia looks like losing badly in Ukraine.

[River Don]

I would imagine given the Russian army performance in Ukraine and it's losses, any thoughts of opening a second front and attacking a NATO state are firmly on the back burner now.

In the meantime the west has accepted it now needs a much larger military force in the east and this process has already begun.

The big worry I think remains Ukraine and how things develop there.

[River Don]

Another consideration is how things progress in Russia itself. Already there are queues for basic items like sugar. The sanctions are only just begining to bite.

When those maimed and disfigured lads start returning home in large numbers, that will probably have a big impact on public opinion of the war. Someone threw a petrol bomb at the Kremlin today.

Putins instinct is to crackdown, that's begun and I suppose he will only crackdown harder on any dissent.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I would imagine given the Russian army performance in Ukraine and it's losses, any thoughts of opening a second front and attacking a NATO state are firmly on the back burner now.

In the meantime the west has accepted it now needs a much larger military force in the east and this process has already begun.

The big worry I think remains Ukraine and how things develop there.

I agree that one potentially massive positive to come out of this nightmare is that Putin has seen that his conventional forces are shockingly bad. It seems hard to believe he would be able to win a blitzkrieg in the Baltics and that was always the most dangerous potential scenario.

My concern is what he might yet do if Ukrain really starts to push back Russian forces and he's faced with a humiliation.

From a world peace point of view, the least dangerous outcome would be some acceptance that the Donbass and the Black Sea coast be integrated into Russia. Give Putin an exit where he can claim victory without being humiliated, and go home and lick his wounds knowing he's never invading anywhere else again. But morally, after how Ukraine has fought, that takes some swallowing.

[drfchound]

Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think

My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.

There have been numerous requests from posters for others not to politicise this thread.

[River Don]

I would imagine given the Russian army performance in Ukraine and it's losses, any thoughts of opening a second front and attacking a NATO state are firmly on the back burner now.

In the meantime the west has accepted it now needs a much larger military force in the east and this process has already begun.

The big worry I think remains Ukraine and how things develop there.

I agree that one potentially massive positive to come out of this nightmare is that Putin has seen that his conventional forces are shockingly bad. It seems hard to believe he would be able to win a blitzkrieg in the Baltics and that was always the most dangerous potential scenario.

My concern is what he might yet do if Ukrain really starts to push back Russian forces and he's faced with a humiliation.

From a world peace point of view, the least dangerous outcome would be some acceptance that the Donbass and the Black Sea coast be integrated into Russia. Give Putin an exit where he can claim victory without being humiliated, and go home and lick his wounds knowing he's never invading anywhere else again. But morally, after how Ukraine has fought, that takes some swallowing.

I agree BST but I'm not sure Ukraine would accept it.

If Russia got it's land bridge to Crimea and a Ukrainian commitment not to join NATO. Perhaps Ukraine keeping Odessa and it's access to the black sea.

That could be sold as a Russian victory of sorts.

Then we could look at de-escalating sanctions in return for commitments to European security.

Who knows, they keep saying peace talks are becoming more realistic.

[drfchound]

Without a doubt, both sides will be looking for a way to end the conflict so will be hoping to achieve it without losing too much face.

[Branton Red]

Branton.

I'm happy to acknowledge that you were criticising Germany not the EU. My apogies for that error. Many people have used criticism of Germany as a reason for disliking the entire EU and I made the mistake of thinking that was what you were doing. Happy to hold my hand up and admit that was wrong.

As for your other specific criticisms.
1) I've said nothing about aid. I've said plenty about our response to refugees and I stand by every word. Feel free to point out which bits you disagree with.

4) I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. I have never compared the EU to Putin's Russia. What I HAVE done, frequently is to point out the childishness of people using comparisons between the EU and dictatorships. I don't recall you ever taking people to task for making those comparisons, so I've no idea what your opinion is.

5) And that independence of action can in practice lead to us giving kleptocrats plenty of notice that sanctions are coming. So that, while EU countries were impounding superyachts, we we sending the Riot Squad round to kick protestors out of a kleptocrat's mansion.


6) Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't accuse Johnson of being a spy. I said there is a body of evidence to suggest he is or has been an agent of Russia. As in, someone taking actions that are in their interests. I've explained the evidence that underpins that thinking. Feel free to explain which bits you have issues with.

Billy thank you for your apology. What are your, or anyone else's, thoughts on German geopolitical policy towards Putin's Russia over the last 20 years? Genuinely interested. There is understandably a high focus on the UK Government's actions on here which sometimes misses the bigger picture.

(1) My turn to apologies for poor wording. By aid I meant help not just Aid but sanctions etc. My comment here wasn't directed at you but the thread as a whole

(4) To quote you "Anyone who has lazily complained about the EU being anti democratic needs to wake up now and see the bigger picture. This is what real tyrranical anti democracy looks like."

Clearly comparing the EU's democratic deficit to Russia's total lack of democracy to argue your view on Brexit.

The EU is definitively not a dictatorship. It is a Meritocracy sponsored by it's constituent Democracies. Said sponsorship mean EU's lawmakers, though not democratically elected, could never act in the way of a tyrannical dictatorship i.e. closing down free speech, controlling the press, banning political opposition, invading other countries etc.

Therefore the existence and behaviour of such dictatorships is totally irrelevant to discussions on the EU and Brexit. Anyone using the despicable actions of Russia in Ukraine as a pretext to compare the EU favourably or unfavourably to Putin's Russia is not just wrong-headed but crass.

(5) We can vote against the Government at the ballot box re your criticism. In reality the UK has banned Russian oil imports by the end of 2022. The EU has not committed to such a ban. If we were still in the EU we would be bound by this EU decision, as are all current members to Putin's advantage, and there'd be nothing the Government or UK citizens could do about it.

(6) I'd read agent = spy. To quote you again "[Johnson] attended a NATO meeting on the Salisbury poisoning, then went straight to an undocumented 1-2-1 private meeting with the son of a KGB colonel." Sounds like the actions of a spy rather than an asset being entrapped to me.

Wilts - your proposal of Johnson as an asset/useful idiot is more plausible given his lack of common sense/discretion - the very things that would make him a pretty useless spy/agent.

Either way this is an event from 4 years ago before he became PM. The security services would have to have been hugely incompetent if they didn't know of such a meeting, didn't investigate it and didn't move to remove the man from public office at any hint of impropriety - let alone allow him to become PM

It's a nonsense conspiracy theory.

[SydneyRover]

This is a reminder of what we do and don't know

''UK report on Russian interference: key points explained
Committee finds Kremlin’s reach in UK politics – especially in ‘Londongrad’ – is ‘new normal’''

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/just-what-does-the-uk-russia-report-say-key-points-explained

[wilts rover]

All good points Branton.

And here's another nonsene conspiracy theory from the former UK Defence Attache to the Kremlin in the papers today. Saying that they warned the government about Putin years ago but the chose to ignore them because they valued the Russian money coming into Londongrad (and the Tory Party's pockets) more:

https://twitter.com/ruskin147/status/1506539085669748744/photo/1

MI5/the security service dont conspire to remove Tory prime ministers btw, only Labour ones. They have a long history of that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton.

The point about the way so many Brexit supporters lazily accused the EU of being anti-democratic is that using that insult was meant to close down any discussion about the wider geo-political environment. There was absolutely no discussion in 2016 about the role of the EU as a counterweight to Russia. Now, you may believe the EU doesn't have a role to play in that, but the point is there was no discussion. We had Brexiteers scoffing "Cameron says if we leave the EU it'll be WWIII". We had other Brexiteers actively comparing the EU to dictatorships (EUSSR ring any bells?). All designed to strangle any deeper debate.

The point really was not "Do you want to be free of Brussels?" in a vacuum. Who wouldn't prefer to be unshackelled? It was "Are the sacrifices made to be part of a group of democratic nations worth it in the light of real threats from genuine dictatorships?"

We never had that debate.

And never once have I heard any Brexit supporter address the key point. Why was the only European head of state who supported Brexit, Putin. And why were the most vocal European politicians who supported Brexit, the ones who Putin bankrolls? (Le Pen, Salvini etc).

Regarding Johnson's relationship with Russia, I'd be prepared to consider him a useful idiot. Except for the Russia Report. I do not understand how anyone can look at that and not think it screams out "collusion".

He sat on the report for 12 months.

He tried to bury it by having Grayling (Grayling!) Installed as head of the Intelligence and Security Committee.

His own MPs rebelled and elected someone he couldn't strong arm.

That Tory MP Chair said in front of TV cameras that in view of the prima facie evidence that had on direct Russian interference in our elections (read that again - direct Russian interference in our elections) he found it inconceivable that a UK PM would  not initiate a full security services investigation.

And Johnson's reply? In Parliament. He said he wouldn't ask the security services to look for evidence of Russian interference because he'd not seen any evidence of Russian interference.

Tell me any rational explanation of that chain of events that doesn't conclude that Johnson is at the very least a potential colluder with a hostile foreign power in terms of being prepared to ignore his own security advisers and turn a blind eye.

Finally, your point about Russian oil makes zero sense. If we were part of an EU that was only going to stop importing Russian oil in several years, we could still decide ourselves not to important any tomorrow. Verhoffstadt wouldn't have been at the petrol station saying "Tut tut!" if we'd filled up with non-Russian petrol.

[belton rover]

Good luck, Branton.

[BobG]

Belton: the reaction of our PM in the House of Commons to a statement by his Chancellor about what is happening in the Ukraine absolutely DOES belong in a thread entitled 'Ukraine'. I  am at a loss how you can think otherwise.

BobG

[belton rover]

Bob. I knew you would be at a loss.
Let me explain.
He was not reacting to the statement. Why do you think the clip is so short?
Johnson wasn’t laughing at the plight of Ukrainians.
He was laughing at something else. He wasn’t listening to what was being said. That makes him foolish and an embarrassment, as I have said. He was NOT laughing at Ukrainians. It has NOTHING to do with this thread about the war in Ukraine
You, Bob, made a comment about the quality of the debate on this thread. Now you defend Billy’s b*llocks.
Johnson is a tit. Absolutely. But that clip does not show what you and Billy and whoever else want to tell everyone else it does.
It has nothing to do do with this thread abut the war in Ukraine.

[BobG]

And you know this how? Seriously. I really do want to know. If you are right  the evidence must be available because you are clearly relying on it. If there is none then I will trust what my eyes and ears tell me from the evidence in front of us rather than what would then be emotional blether.

BobG

[tyke1962]

Branton.

The point about the way so many Brexit supporters lazily accused the EU of being anti-democratic is that using that insult was meant to close down any discussion about the wider geo-political environment. There was absolutely no discussion in 2016 about the role of the EU as a counterweight to Russia. Now, you may believe the EU doesn't have a role to play in that, but the point is there was no discussion. We had Brexiteers scoffing "Cameron says if we leave the EU it'll be WWIII". We had other Brexiteers actively comparing the EU to dictatorships (EUSSR ring any bells?). All designed to strangle any deeper debate.

The point really was not "Do you want to be free of Brussels?" in a vacuum. Who wouldn't prefer to be unshackelled? It was "Are the sacrifices made to be part of a group of democratic nations worth it in the light of real threats from genuine dictatorships?"

We never had that debate.

And never once have I heard any Brexit supporter address the key point. Why was the only European head of state who supported Brexit, Putin. And why were the most vocal European politicians who supported Brexit, the ones who Putin bankrolls? (Le Pen, Salvini etc).

Regarding Johnson's relationship with Russia, I'd be prepared to consider him a useful idiot. Except for the Russia Report. I do not understand how anyone can look at that and not think it screams out "collusion".

He sat on the report for 12 months.

He tried to bury it by having Grayling (Grayling!) Installed as head of the Intelligence and Security Committee.

His own MPs rebelled and elected someone he couldn't strong arm.

That Tory MP Chair said in front of TV cameras that in view of the prima facie evidence that had on direct Russian interference in our elections (read that again - direct Russian interference in our elections) he found it inconceivable that a UK PM would  not initiate a full security services investigation.

And Johnson's reply? In Parliament. He said he wouldn't ask the security services to look for evidence of Russian interference because he'd not seen any evidence of Russian interference.

Tell me any rational explanation of that chain of events that doesn't conclude that Johnson is at the very least a potential colluder with a hostile foreign power in terms of being prepared to ignore his own security advisers and turn a blind eye.

Finally, your point about Russian oil makes zero sense. If we were part of an EU that was only going to stop importing Russian oil in several years, we could still decide ourselves not to important any tomorrow. Verhoffstadt wouldn't have been at the petrol station saying "Tut tut!" if we'd filled up with non-Russian petrol.

We were in the EU in 1990 when the former Yugoslavia fell apart and watched the horror unfold including genocide .

Not sure what your point is Billy to be honest linking Brexit to this today .

Eastern Europe is historically complicated to say the least and will be again even when this war is over .

[belton rover]

And you know this how? Seriously. I really do want to know. If you are right  the evidence must be available because you are clearly relying on it. If there is none then I will trust what my eyes and ears tell me from the evidence in front of us rather than what would then be emotional blether.

BobG

It’s obvious to anyone who can watch the video impartially. You, and others, clearly can’t.