Ukraine

[Bristol Red Rover]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukraine-nuclear-plant-inspectors-shelling-zaporizhzhia-russia-rcna45811

Yes its primarily from Russia, tho widely echoed via less state controlled sources too. We'll see what transpires. I was offering it as a report.

Ukraine desperately needs the electricity. The inspection was good distractive cover. If true its an own goal, tho obviously Ukraine and those that use its info - most western media - won't report it if unsucessful. If untrue its an example of Russian game playing.

Report also that a few Ukraine are captured.

[BillyStubbsTears]

"Primarily from Russia"="Entirely from Russian MoD". Again.

[Bristol Red Rover]

"Primarily from Russia"="Entirely from Russian MoD". Again.

Tho has to be said, much of what you are digesting, and referring to on here is entirely from the Ukraine War Office, albeit with a touch of gloss from your chosen media source to make it look credible.

Obviously Russian Mod is not to be trusted as such, but there are truths too in what they say. Seems to be backed up by movements on the ground. Either way, I said it was a report of interest. Do as you please.

[Filo]

Putin not attending Gorbechev Funeral, he’s either scared he’ll get bunped off or he really is ill and doesn’t want the West to see it

[i_ateallthepies]

Or is so full of loathing for Gorbechev and his break-up of the Soviet Union that he refuses to show him any respect, even in death.  That would fit entirely with the M.O. of Putin.

[Colin C No.3]

It’s ‘Gorbachev’.

[i_ateallthepies]

Thank you, Colin C.  I wasn't sure and couldn't be bothered to look it up, so copied Filo.

[Filo]

Wasn’t sure how to spell it, it’s not really that important and you obviously knew who I meant, so can’t see the big deal really

[Bristol Red Rover]

Anyone thinking Ukraine is succeeding with its offensive in Kherson, or was that a very costly attempt in lives and armour to appear able to succeed so as to woo its partners in the West to give more weapons?

[Panda]

Ukraine's first lady Olena Zelenska on BBC quoted as saying, 'As UK counts pennies, we count casualties'.

Oh sorry about that. Sorry we aren't doing enough. I'm about done with Ukraine now tbh.

Yes it's horrific but it isn't great for many people in the UK either.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dunkirk Spirit, eh?

[Panda]

Dunkirk Spirit, eh?

So how are YOU helping? All that is happening is that the Tories are giving Ukraine loads of money whilst telling us that we should be grateful it is not us at war.

Instead of taking out the people responsible for the war and getting everyone involved. It is pandering. Either go all in and end the war or start looking out for British people and stop telling us we need to be grateful or need to do more. 

[wilts rover]

Dunkirk Spirit, eh?

So how are YOU helping? All that is happening is that the Tories are giving Ukraine loads of money whilst telling us that we should be grateful it is not us at war.

Instead of taking out the people responsible for the war and getting everyone involved. It is pandering. Either go all in and end the war or start looking out for British people and stop telling us we need to be grateful or need to do more. 

By 'go in and end the war' do you mean 'go in and start World War III'?

[wilts rover]

Anyone thinking Ukraine is succeeding with its offensive in Kherson, or was that a very costly attempt in lives and armour to appear able to succeed so as to woo its partners in the West to give more weapons?

1.Yes.
2.No, its an ongoing offensive.
3.Lots of weapons, including more HIMARS have already been promised but not yet delivered.

[Panda]

Dunkirk Spirit, eh?

So how are YOU helping? All that is happening is that the Tories are giving Ukraine loads of money whilst telling us that we should be grateful it is not us at war.

Instead of taking out the people responsible for the war and getting everyone involved. It is pandering. Either go all in and end the war or start looking out for British people and stop telling us we need to be grateful or need to do more. 

By 'go in and end the war' do you mean 'go in and start World War III'?

Isn't that what Ukraine wants? It seems they want to tell us to do more and won't be satisfied until the cavalry arrives. How else will the war end anyway if the perpetrator is allowed to continue it?

Most people are happy for the UK to keep giving Ukraine cash because that means they themselves don't have to be involved in a world war. Meanwhile, the war continues. Now where is that Dunkirk spirit BST was on about? 

[scawsby steve]

There's no favourable endgame for anyone in all this. This war can't be won by either side; it will go on for years as did the wars in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

In the meantime, Truss's plans to tackle the cost of living crisis won't stop people from freezing and starving next Winter, and there'll be anarchy on the streets.

According to some of the experts on Sky News last night, the effect Covid had on the economy, and particularly the hospitality industry, was nothing compared to what's coming down the road.

[Panda]

That's not ideal but meanwhile i want our new PM to put British people first, not Ukrainians. Harsh i know but we aren't Ukraine. We are Britain and we have our own problems. By all means help though. I also don't want to be criticised by the likes of Ukrainian first lady simply for living in England and not Ukraine and thus not being at war. It's not our bloody fault!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Colin

It's really simple.

If the West doesn't stand up to Putin now, the problem doesn't go away. His aim is to restore what he sees as Russia's Historic Destiny to dominate Europe. That includes us by the way.

You don't have the choice between supporting Ukraine and having it hard, or abandoning them and having it easy.

The choice is between supporting Ukraine and having it hard. Or a andining them and having it harder than you could imagine in your worst dreams in future.

[Panda]

Colin

It's really simple.

If the West doesn't stand up to Putin now, the problem doesn't go away. His aim is to restore what he sees as Russia's Historic Destiny to dominate Europe. That includes us by the way.

You don't have the choice between supporting Ukraine and having it hard, or abandoning them and having it easy.

The choice is between supporting Ukraine and having it hard. Or a andining them and having it harder than you could imagine in your worst dreams in future.

What if i'm sick the back teeth of hearing about Ukraine? Does that make me a bad person?

Oh and you can call me Andy, Billy. 

[SydneyRover]

You could help yourself and not discuss it, but that wouldn't be you would it? Russia are going to be part of everyone's live for some time until it's not. Putin cannot beat the whole of Europe which is why he's tried every which way to sow division, with some success. The 'west' needs to see him off however long it takes imho.

[Panda]

You could help yourself and not discuss it, but that wouldn't be you would it? Russia are going to be part of everyone's live for some time until it's not. Putin cannot beat the whole of Europe which is why he's tried every which way to sow division, with some success. The 'west' needs to see him off however long it takes imho.

You make a very valid point SR. I guess i'm like the media who constantly bang on about being sick of hearing about Meghan & Harry but then proceed to talk about them all the time. Point taken. I just don't like being made to feel guilty about having a life free from war just because another country is at war. Take your points though.

[SydneyRover]

Ha, don't get me started on the media

[Bristol Red Rover]

Colin

It's really simple.

If the West doesn't stand up to Putin now, the problem doesn't go away. His aim is to restore what he sees as Russia's Historic Destiny to dominate Europe. That includes us by the way.

You don't have the choice between supporting Ukraine and having it hard, or abandoning them and having it easy.

The choice is between supporting Ukraine and having it hard. Or a andining them and having it harder than you could imagine in your worst dreams in future.

Brainwashing right there! 

First of all fear of....
Next more fear....
Accepting poverty for some out there reasoning... don't forget to tug forlock.
Need to suffer or.... we'll suffer even more. Praise be, I hear the spirit of Croomwell, or some churchy state control nonsense.
And the not just fear but your worst nightmare - repent!

Oh, Lordy BST you are possessed.

[Bristol Red Rover]

You could help yourself and not discuss it, but that wouldn't be you would it? Russia are going to be part of everyone's live for some time until it's not. Putin cannot beat the whole of Europe which is why he's tried every which way to sow division, with some success. The 'west' needs to see him off however long it takes imho.

The problem there is we are possibly going into the worst recession for some time, many will get seriously ill - ie die - from this. Seems the very same folks who were in favour of saving lives with covid lockdown are in favour of killing them with feeding this recession, AND sending cash to Ukraine. All on the back of guess what - FEAR. "Putin gonna invade all of Europe" etc.....

It's twisted, it's being brainwashed, it's insecure. Not only that, it's feeding the very monster they're told to be afraid of. Someone should make a movie about this.... wait.....

[wilts rover]

Exactly BRR. We should appease a murderous fascist dictator who wishes to annihilate an entire country and its people - because thats' where 4% of our gas comes from.

4%.

[wilts rover]

Some details here on Ukraine's current 'offensive'. Dont mistake them not taking lots of ground straight away as 'a failure' - they are going to charge in like the Somme.

It's going to be a long and drawn out fight against a much larger force, aimed at breaking their logistics, supply and ability to hold ground, described by this guy 'accelerated attrition... build up, tempt in, destroy'.

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1566326321763975168

[Dutch Uncle]

First of all fear of....
Next more fear....

Fear based on previous experience is not irrational

There are plenty old enough to remember the country Putin in his own words is trying to emulate militarily invading indisputably sovereign counties in 1956 (Hungary) and Czechoslovakia (1968)
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Some details here on Ukraine's current 'offensive'. Dont mistake them not taking lots of ground straight away as 'a failure' - they are going to charge in like the Somme.

It's going to be a long and drawn out fight against a much larger force, aimed at breaking their logistics, supply and ability to hold ground, described by this guy 'accelerated attrition... build up, tempt in, destroy'.

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1566326321763975168

If that analysis is correct on saying Russia has flooded Kherson with reinforcements, that will be the biggest tactical blunder of the war to date.

Kherson city is on the east bank of the Dneister.

With the accurate artillery systems the Ukrainians now have, they can damage/destroy bridges linking the city with the main Russian forces in the east.

Then the Russians can't resupply Kherson.

There's no need for the Ukrainians to fight their way into Kherson. The Russians willq be starved out eventually, and they'll lose a massive amount of supplies to artillery attack because they'll be sitting ducks if they try to ferry stuff in over the river.

This is a massive period of the war. If Russia loses Kherson, its strategy of taking the whole southern coast past Odessa, and linking up with Transnistria in Moldova is finished. And worse, Crimea then becomes vulnerable to having its supply lines cut off.

[BillyStubbsTears]

First of all fear of....
Next more fear....

Fear based on previous experience is not irrational

There are plenty old enough to remember the country Putin in his own words is trying to emulate militarily invading indisputably sovereign counties in 1956 (Hungary) and Czechoslovakia (1968)
 

Yeah but...

The West has also done some bad things. Therefore both sides are equally culpable.

I think that summarises the logic.

[BillyStubbsTears]

First of all fear of....
Next more fear....

Fear based on previous experience is not irrational

There are plenty old enough to remember the country Putin in his own words is trying to emulate militarily invading indisputably sovereign counties in 1956 (Hungary) and Czechoslovakia (1968)
 

Your "previous experience" comment got me thinking Dutch.

We have loads of previous experience in Europe on the sort of ethno-nationalist justification for invasion that Russia has used.

It comes naturally when nationalism takes control of the narrative in a continent with messy boundaries between countries.

Putin isn't unique in being an aggressive ethno-nationalist warmaker.

In the first half of the 20th century alone there were similar conflicts driven by nationalistic aggression between:

Germany and France over Alsace-Lorraine
Italy and Austria over the Irredenta.
Serbia and Austria over control of the Balkans
Greece and Turkey over Smyrna
Germany and Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland
USSR and Poland over east Poland
Germany and Poland over west Poland
USSR and Finland over east Finland
USSR and the Baltic States over their independence.

Wars like the Russian invasion of Ukraine used to be commonplace when nationslism called the shots.

The single biggest aim of the EU at its birth, was to provide a strong alternative to nationalism, in order to prevent these disasters. For all its many faults, the EU has been superbly effective in this.

I fear that nationalism is on the rise again, embraced by people too young to remember what it led to in the past.