Brexit Negotiations

[Bentley Bullet]

Well, I'd have preferred an answer to my question rather than being insulted but it's par for the course I suppose.

Someone on the main forum once asked why Rovers attendances were down. As a supporter who still attended matches, I gave my opinion based on what I was told by people I knew who had stopped going. As a result, I was promptly told that I wasn't a proper fan, and should go and support  Man Utd! Talk about shooting the messenger!

A very similar scenario has occurred on the referendum result. Someone asked why people voted Brexit. As a remain voter, I gave my opinion based on what I was told by people who voted Brexit. As a result, I'm a waste of time talking to because I was one of them!

Third division football forums eh!

[BillyStubbsTears]

It’s not an insult B.B., it’s an observation. Based on the hamster-wheel we went on for weeks where you said we couldn’t predict the effect of Brexit, I said that the effects were panning out exactly as predicted and you said we couldn’t predict the effect of Brexit.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, and I didn't disagree with you! It was expected by BOTH sides that there would be an initial negative reaction to the leave vote, although not to the extent of the lies told by Cameron and Gideon, the result of which were nowhere near exactly as predicted.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

I’ve explained to you times without number that the economic effect has been PRECISELY that indicated by economists. We’re already £60-80bn down as a result of the vote. When I first told you that, you didn’t say ANYTHING about both sides having expected that. You blathered about the effect of the General Election.

When I pointed out that the economic hit had set in well before the election, you went back to saying that we can’t oreduct the effect of Brexit.

When I reiterated that we can and have done, you whined about Osborne predicting a recession.

When I pointed out that we would be in recession if the rest of the world hadn’t gone into an unexpected boom, you said that showed that economists can’t preduct the future.

When I pointed out that opinion betrayed a misunderstanding of how economics works, you said nothing, then later repeated the point about Osborne saying there’s be a recession.

When I then say that you seem more interested in arguing than engaging with a grown up discussion, you say I’m insulting you.
And then you say that BOTH sides said there would be problems, although I doubt anyone would remember Farage on the hustings bellowing “Vote Leave and the UK economy will lose £60-80bn by early 2018.” Maybe I wasn’t paying attention. 

Have fun because I’ve got more important shit to deal with than indulge your obtuseness.

And the same economists are predicting that

[Not Now Kato]

Even so, surely they will consider the alternative of relocating to one of the remaining thriving countries still in the EU?

You miss the point BB.  India doesn't have a freedom of movement agreement with the EU, they can't consider going there; but they are insisting on it being part of any trade deal with us.
 
When this is part of your daily life, even a poor Britain is an attraction....
 

 

[Bentley Bullet]

BB

I’ve explained to you times without number that the economic effect has been PRECISELY that indicated by economists. We’re already £60-80bn down as a result of the vote. When I first told you that, you didn’t say ANYTHING about both sides having expected that. You blathered about the effect of the General Election.

When I pointed out that the economic hit had set in well before the election, you went back to saying that we can’t oreduct the effect of Brexit.

When I reiterated that we can and have done, you whined about Osborne predicting a recession.

When I pointed out that we would be in recession if the rest of the world hadn’t gone into an unexpected boom, you said that showed that economists can’t preduct the future.

When I pointed out that opinion betrayed a misunderstanding of how economics works, you said nothing, then later repeated the point about Osborne saying there’s be a recession.

When I then say that you seem more interested in arguing than engaging with a grown up discussion, you say I’m insulting you.
And then you say that BOTH sides said there would be problems, although I doubt anyone would remember Farage on the hustings bellowing “Vote Leave and the UK economy will lose £60-80bn by early 2018.” Maybe I wasn’t paying attention. 

Have fun because I’ve got more important shit to deal with than indulge your obtuseness.

And the same economists are predicting that

Well if that's the case why the f**k did you answer my question to Wilts?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fair point. I guess it’s because I’m an argumentative t**t.

[hoolahoop]

I think your obtuseness and insistence on arguing for the sake of arguing with no real interest in finding a sensible conclusion is very wearing and depressing. But I’m sure you get something out of it.

I'm sure the coming reality will reduce that need to be quite so obtuse and argumentative. I'm sure from reading comments from BB over the years that he is enjoying playing devil's advocate.....at least I hope so.

I am waiting for the time when he, as a Remainer, says Anything positive about the Remain argument or the EU for that matter  - it feels like we have cuckoo in the nest

[Bentley Bullet]

You don't like 'cuckoos in the nest' do you Hoolahoop? You just want to find comfort from a handful of like-minded Mr Angries. With that in mind, I'll leave you to it!

Oh, and just for the record, as far as I'm concerned there's no need to say anything positive about the Remain argument. We are ALL leavers now and our positivity should be directed at leaving.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

And as we’ve discussed a thousand times, there are an infinite number of different ways of leaving. Saying that we’re all leavers now is pointless unless you know what we are leaving. That was never set out before the vote. So I reverse my right to argue like f**k that we shouldn’t have a Hard Brexit, and to point out why it would be a disaster.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB

And as we’ve discussed a thousand times, there are an infinite number of different ways of leaving. Saying that we’re all leavers now is pointless unless you know what we are leaving. That was never set out before the vote. So I reverse my right to argue like f**k that we shouldn’t have a Hard Brexit, and to point out why it would be a disaster.

No, don't do that, BST. You have every right to continue to fight for what you believe in. Don't let insults deter you. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ba-dum.

[Bentley Bullet]

Thank you. I'm here all week. 

[Sprotyrover]

Billy it was the case of Victor Domboskis in 2006.

Sproty there are upwards of 3,000,000 of these furriners here at any one time and you have as your statistic 1 child rapist from Lithuania. Whilst this man and his crimes were horrendous are you seriously saying there are hundreds more in the country already ? Not doubting your sincerity and fear about this but who says that there are " 20/30,000 " hardened criminals awaiting return " ? If so why the f**k haven't we been doing our jobs here. 
That's a serious amount of bad boys and girls !

You're right Hoola all of those foreigners are here and until they get arrested we haven't got a clue as to their antecedents.
And prior to the case of Dombodkis we were doing nothing about checking up on them.
In fact we had peeps turning up on the motorway hard shoulder, being taken to a Police station fingerprinted and then being released and told to make their own way to Liverpool to register.
Hardly a satisfactory state of affairs isn't it, oh and by the way when Have I ever belittled you in a Post?

Why do you feel you were belittled . The current prison population in the UK is only 85, 000 but you want us to believe that whilst EU immigrants only represent some 4-5 % of the general population ; they would represent 25- 40 % of our current prison population given your 20-30k figure.

That's why I challenged your figures - what you are in essence suggesting is that Europeans are 6 or even 8 times as likely to be serious criminals than us Brits . Basically that sort of figure came from where ....The Daily Express ?

Evening Hoola , the prison population doesn't have a 30% foreign element because we now deport them very rapidly I am a personal friend of the Governer of one such Prison establishment and Eu Offenders are rarely kept for longer than 6 weeks before being deported, there are approx 3,000 in the system so we deport about 30 k a year.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[hoolahoop]

We deport 30,000 EU citizens a year really ? -however you never seem to supply the relevant attachments do you to back up your assertions . Only what someone you know tells you. To listen to you , you would think that,  every European but the British is nothing more than a scumbag. Is that really what you believe ?  You have taken xenophobia to new heights .

It's your sort that spreads fear about foreigners , why do you do it .....you've even tried doing it with me ffs about MY OWN DAUGHTER !!

Do you realise how that makes me feel as I prepare her to work for nearly  2 months working in Spain followed by a further year in Denmark . You have started that little irrational fearful thought,  just like an itch that won't go away,  in the back of my mind ?

[Glyn_Wigley]

We deport 30,000 EU citizens a year really ? -however you never seem to supply the relevant attachments do you to back up your assertions . Only what someone you know tells you. To listen to you , you would think that,  every European but the British is nothing more than a scumbag. Is that really what you believe ?  You have taken xenophobia to new heights .

It's your sort that spreads fear about foreigners , why do you do it .....you've even tried doing it with me ffs about MY OWN DAUGHTER !!

Do you realise how that makes me feel as I prepare her to work for nearly  2 months working in Spain followed by a further year in Denmark . You have started that little irrational fearful thought,  just like an itch that won't go away,  in the back of my mind ?

That's because he's talking b*llocks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-citizens-deportations-rise-uk-home-office-referendum-a7935266.html

[selby]

                                         SWITZERLAND
       NOT in the EU still in EUROPE
       Has its own TAILORED EU DEAL
       Has FREE TRADE DEALS with China Japan THE EU and many more
       Exports FIVE TIMES more than the UK to THE EU
       Adopts 0% of the EU RULES
       Has the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUROPE
       Is the 2nd RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD by nominal GDP PER HEAD
       RANKS 1st in the WORLD in the global innovation index
       Is NOT in the EU
       DOING RATHER WELL DON'T YOU THINK

   It can be done, but both sides need to want to do it, and stop playing silly buggers.

[Glyn_Wigley]

                                         SWITZERLAND
       NOT in the EU still in EUROPE
       Has its own TAILORED EU DEAL
       Has FREE TRADE DEALS with China Japan THE EU and many more
       Exports FIVE TIMES more than the UK to THE EU
       Adopts 0% of the EU RULES
       Has the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUROPE
       Is the 2nd RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD by nominal GDP PER HEAD
       RANKS 1st in the WORLD in the global innovation index
       Is NOT in the EU
       DOING RATHER WELL DON'T YOU THINK

   It can be done, but both sides need to want to do it, and stop playing silly buggers.

It took me ten seconds to prove that wrong.

"Switzerland has agreed to take over certain aspects of EU legislation in exchange for accessing part of the EU's single market."

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/switzerland/index_en.htm

[Glyn_Wigley]

                                         SWITZERLAND
       NOT in the EU still in EUROPE
       Has its own TAILORED EU DEAL
       Has FREE TRADE DEALS with China Japan THE EU and many more
      Exports FIVE TIMES more than the UK to THE EU
       Adopts 0% of the EU RULES
       Has the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUROPE
       Is the 2nd RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD by nominal GDP PER HEAD
       RANKS 1st in the WORLD in the global innovation index
       Is NOT in the EU
       DOING RATHER WELL DON'T YOU THINK

   It can be done, but both sides need to want to do it, and stop playing silly buggers.

And now another bit of rubbish:

Switzerland exported about £240 billion in goods and services to the EU in 2016. The UK exported £240 billion too.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/


How much more of that is rubbish?

[Glyn_Wigley]

                                         SWITZERLAND
       NOT in the EU still in EUROPE
       Has its own TAILORED EU DEAL
       Has FREE TRADE DEALS with China Japan THE EU and many more
       Exports FIVE TIMES more than the UK to THE EU
       Adopts 0% of the EU RULES
       Has the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUROPE
       Is the 2nd RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD by nominal GDP PER HEAD
       RANKS 1st in the WORLD in the global innovation index
       Is NOT in the EU
       DOING RATHER WELL DON'T YOU THINK

   It can be done, but both sides need to want to do it, and stop playing silly buggers.

Ooops!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

They sure converted you didn’t they?

Both to believing in Brexit AND believing the lies that the Brexiters peddle.

That post is so shot through with wrongness it’s tough to know where to start.

1) Switzerland does not export 5 times as much to the EU as we do. Not remotely close.

2) Yes Switzerland is very rich but not BECAUSE it stayed out of the EU. It was already very rich before the EU started, primarily because it stayed out of the two World Wars that the rest of us indulged in (and that the EU was set up to avoid happening again). It is a fact that since we joined the EEC, our GDP has risen at a faster rate than that of Switzerland. So the gap between our wealth and that of Switzerland is now significantly less than it was in 1973.

3) Switzerland DOES have to take on MANY EU laws. That is the price that it pays for access to the Single Market. The laws include fully accepting freedom of movement.

4) Switzerland does have a trade deal with the EU. It took over ten years to negotiate.

Do you not see this? It is bullshit peddled by people who don’t want you to know the effect of Brexit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Glyn

Actually, he’s correct on nominal GDP per head. You’re posting PPP figures which are the commonly used ones because they take into account the very high cost of living in Switzerland. You wouldn’t expect a Brexit supporter to tell the world that Switzerland has a ferociously high cost of living, would you? I was in Lugano 7 years ago. We had a couple of pizzas and two pints of beer in a bog standard trattoria. The bill was nearly £80.

You also wouldn’t expect a Brexit supporter to tell you that the one country in the world with a higher nominal GDP per head than Switzerland is in the EU, would you? Or that Ireland which was an economic basket case in the 1970s now has a higher PPP GDP per head than Switzerland?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn

Actually, he’s correct on nominal GDP per head. You’re posting PPP figures which are the commonly used ones because they take into account the very high cost of living in Switzerland. You wouldn’t expect a Brexit supporter to tell the world that Switzerland has a ferociously high cost of living, would you? I was in Lugano 7 years ago. We had a couple of pizzas and two pints of beer in a bog standard trattoria. The bill was nearly £80.

You also wouldn’t expect a Brexit supporter to tell you that the one country in the world with a higher nominal GDP per head than Switzerland is in the EU, would you? Or that Ireland which was an economic basket case in the 1970s now has a higher PPP GDP per head than Switzerland?

Ah, by nominal you need to read 'massaged'? I get it. It hadn't escaped my notice either that the three lists I linked to had Ireland and Luxembourg ranked above Switzerland in all three.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No. To be fair “nominal” is the straightforward figure. Total output, converted into dollars and divided by the population. It IS the simplest measure. And Switzerland does do very well at that. But not BECAUSE they are outside the EU. They are rich because they were rich well before the EU started. As I say, the UK’s wealth and wealth per capita have grown faster than Switzerland’s while we’ve been inside the EEC/EU.

[selby]

  No Billy, I am not converted, narrowly, very narrowly, I would stay in. if we were having the vote tomorrow I would still vote to stay in.
   But we have had that vote and I lost. there should not be another vote, if there is it is just opening every election on any subject to be challenged, and reversed, the politics of the gutter, exploited by the Nazi and Bolsheviks.
   Which ever way it goes for the two sides, it is now all about the big bucks to be made, and just who makes them, you and I and the rest of the population are the pawns in the game.
  My game is to now watch the markets, get in or out as the trends go, and try and make a pitance. This forum and the Rovers are my relaxation to get away from the screen for a few minutes.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What made you post that load of spurious tosh without checking it first then? Want to tell us where you got it from?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

As Glyn says, what you posted is very typical of the sort of stuff that was being poured out by the Leave side during the referendum campaign. It is, at very best misleading and out of context. Most of it is plain wrong. it seems odd for an avowed Remain supporter to be peddling this tripe, but then there's been a lot that has been very odd about the whole Brexit issue.

[selby]

  A bit of fun, I saw it posted on a site,knew some of it was make believe, and thought getting hammered by yourselves would be a bit funny, SORRY.
   But what some of you who are much more clued  up than me on this subject have to realise, is that in both camps there are some very big world class companies who do exert a lot of influence on governments. And when push comes to shove  their interests will be taken into consideration.
  The talks are now heading towards their interests, I expect the tone to change and a more level headed approach to the negotiations, and more agreement.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

Problem is that there's also a lot of very powerful politics involved. In order for the EU to retain any credibility, it cannot give an inch on the Irish border question. And nor should it. The people of Ireland didn't have a say in Brexit, so it is priority number 1 for the EU that the people of Ireland are not punished because of Brexit.

So the Irish border question is not going to go away. And as we've discussed in post after post, there is no solution to this which doesn't either hammer the Irish economy (not acceptable to the EU), put up a border between NI and GB (not acceptable to the DUP) or mean that the whole UK remains inside the Single Market and Customs Union (not acceptable to the Tory Govt).

It's a right old f**king pickle and there's no indication that anyone has a solution to it. Which is probably because there's no solution to it. And so you're assumption that the negotiations are going to turn out just fine and dandy is built on very shaky foundations.

[selby]

  Billy, even the Irish border means that there is big bucks in it for someone, when that someone comes to the table it will get sorted.