No Brexit Extension

[wilts rover]

Hmmm, thread of the feedback from the EU summit:

Everyone at the Commission is quite confused. The current offer to the UK is a deal in which IF we align, we get full access. IF, in future, we diverge they limit access or put up (some) tariffs. The UK choosing to go to NO access and FULL tariffs NOW, is incomprehensible.

This has led people to split into two camps: There is one school of thought, that Johnson really is utterly clueless. His behaviour at the UVDL dinner last night (a car crash, apparently), has fed that impression. This makes people not want to do business with this government.

The second school of thought, is that Johnson negotiated in bad faith throughout. That his aim was always No Deal and he simply strung 27 countries along, at the expense of a huge amount of work, effort and expense. This makes them not want to do business with this government.

Note that the conclusion is precisely the same under either theory. That whether idiot or fraudster, Johnson is best kept at arms length. Polling in most EU27 shows that being tough with the UK yields a big favourability boost. So, I'm afraid, nobody is riding to our rescue.

There is also a lot of weird back-channel chat that he might ask for some sort of technical extension at the 11th hour. Nobody puts much stock in it, but they are prepared and have worked up various legal mechanisms, if that happens.

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1337442036451041282

[Filo]

Imagine 28 houses on a street. They all bought expensive irreplaceable Persian carpets and signed an agreement that if any neighbour went into one of the houses they would take their shoes off.

Then one house occupant said I don’t want carpets. I want tiles I can easily clean. The rest said OK, do what you want, but you still have to take your shoes off if you come into one of our houses.

Sounds reasonable to me.

They could compromise and let him wear slippers that have only been worn indoors

[wilts rover]

   Glynn, tariffs are levied by the country receiving the goods and paid by the exporter, seeing as we import more goods than we export as you constantly point out to anyone who will listen to the EU there is a large difference between what we will have to pay to the EU and what we will receive from them, which is a much larger amount more than equal to all the farm subsidies we receive from the EU according to one report I read.
  Add on the fee they will have to pay for access to fish in our waters.
  I too think there will be an agreement.

There was a court case not so long ago because the UK did not PAY the tariffs on Chinese imports it should have done:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmeuleg/301-iii/30115.htm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-parliaments-45748933

[Dutch Uncle]

Imagine 28 houses on a street. They all bought expensive irreplaceable Persian carpets and signed an agreement that if any neighbour went into one of the houses they would take their shoes off

Then one house occupant said I don’t want carpets. I want tiles I can easily clean. The rest said OK, do what you want, but you still have to take your shoes off if you come into one of our houses.

Sounds reasonable to me.

They could compromise and let him wear slippers that have only been worn indoors

Agree Filo. Sounds like ‘reassessing access conditions’ to me. I am sure I have heard that recently.....

[tyke1962]

I'm watching the events playing out with  trade union glasses on , as I was a rep for many years , bear with me .

What we have here is the classic " failure to agree " between trade union and management without the benefit of a arbitrary body to intervene .

My politics aren't Johnson's  , the ERG or the Tory Party but leaving that to one side nobody but nobody can sign an agreement that they totally don't agree with and then expect their members to accept it .

The equivalent of not reaching an agreement and walking away is to withdraw one's labour and go out on strike which appears we are on the eve of .

Now the effects of that don't generally help either side but none the less it can be the catalyst and realisation that compromise must be brought back to the table .

If none is forthcoming then eventually both sides have to accept they will have to support themselves financially by using other means and the business ends altogether .

That to me is the reality of the situation in relativity layman's terms .

Personally I don't want to hear any whinging leavers anymore than I've had to endure whinging remainers these last four years .

We voted to leave the EU and this is where we are and so for me personally we get on with it and I'll accept that despite my personal feelings towards Johnson as a person and PM I'm comfortable in accepting nobody can sign something they fundamentally disagree with .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Then he can sign the 'oven-ready' deal that got him elected instead. Or do union reps normally get elected on false promises too?

[tyke1962]

Then he can sign the 'oven-ready' deal that got him elected instead. Or do union reps normally get elected on false promises too?

I believe I made it perfectly clear of my feelings towards Johnson Glyn .

Johnson doesn't own bluster as I remember Blair promising a referendum on membership of the EU on two occasions .

My  intentions with my post was to simply put forward where we are rather than the the usual rhetoric we've seen played out for the last four years .

It takes two to reach an agreement and nobody can sign something they don't agree with and neither would I expect them to .

[Glyn_Wigley]

When one side will only agree to the impossible do you still maintain it takes two to reach an agreement?

[tyke1962]

When one side will only agree to the impossible do you still maintain it takes two to reach an agreement?

Depends what your take of the impossible is but as ever the remain camp have always generally failed to recognise the political and cultural reasons for the referendum result and instead concentrated on blaming as many leavers as they could find for it .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.

At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.

So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.

[Not Now Kato]

Looks like Johnson is a great negotiator and knows how to put there foriners in their place....
 
https://twitter.com/paulburston/status/1337313829978509312?s=12
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Looks like Johnson is a great negotiator and knows how to put there foriners in their place....
 
https://twitter.com/paulburston/status/1337313829978509312?s=12
 

Max Hastings, Johnson's ex-employer who sacked him for making up an article in The Telegraph said that if Johnson ever became PM, Britain would have given up any claim to be a serious nation.

And here we are. We elect a disorganised, unpleasant buffoon as PM. Why should it surprise us when he goes into a meeting as critical as that one acting like a disorganized, unpleasant buffoon?

[Bentley Bullet]

Ah, the same bloke who said Gordon Brown was also unfit to be PM. I wonder if he was always right, or just when it suited an agenda!

[ravenrover]

I see Chrls Patten has now come out against The Clown.
Will he last as PM past Easter? I have my doubts

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ah, the same bloke who said Gordon Brown was also unfit to be PM. I wonder if he was always right, or just when it suited an agenda!

Accepted.  But he said that about Brown (someone he'd never worked closely with) in the heat of an election campaign in 2010 when he was passionately supporting the Tories. There is bound to be a partisan influence there.

His comments about Johnson were made about someone who he had had as an employee. He said Johnson was manically disorganised about everything but his own career. He said he wouldn't trust Johnson with his wife or (from bitter experience) with his wallet. He said people didn't understand the level of sheer nastiness in Johnson's personality.

[drfchound]

Ah, the same bloke who said Gordon Brown was also unfit to be PM. I wonder if he was always right, or just when it suited an agenda!

Accepted.  But he said that about Brown (someone he'd never worked closely with) in the heat of an election campaign in 2010 when he was passionately supporting the Tories. There is bound to be a partisan influence there.

His comments about Johnson were made about someone who he had had as an employee. He said Johnson was manically disorganised about everything but his own career. He said he wouldn't trust Johnson with his wife or (from bitter experience) with his wallet. He said people didn't understand the level of sheer nastiness in Johnson's personality.

Conversely, perhaps his comment about Johnson was more from a vindictive point of view.
As you said BST, they had history.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Hmmm...what could possibly have made Hastings vindictive to Johnson..?

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.

At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.

So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.

Billy

There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .

Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .

So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .

Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .

However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .

They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .

I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .

They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've just been listening to the BBC Reith Lecture. Mark Carney, former Governor of the Bank of England talking about the lessons from the Great Financial Crash.

He was Governor of the Bank of Canada at the time. He says the bleakest moment was at a meeting in Washington as the global financial system was collapsing around them, and Brown's Govt led the way in sorting out the international response.

Somehow, I struggle to see anyone in the early 2030s looking back to this period and seeing Johnson as a visionary world leader.

Hound. Yeah,like Hastings, I once had to sack someone for dishonesty and deception. I've since told other employers in the field what my experiences with this person were. You may call that vindictiveness. I call it social responsibility.

[rich1471]

Talks to find a post-Brexit trade deal will "go the extra mile" beyond Sunday's deadline in bid to reach agreement, says EU chief

This breaking news story is being updated and more details will be published shortly. Please refresh the page for the fullest version.
Maybe another more 4 years just might do the trick

[wilts rover]

I love deadlines. It's the whoosing sound they make as they go by.

Douglas Adams

Als the author of other such gems as:

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

[IDM]

I love deadlines. It's the whoosing sound they make as they go by.

Douglas Adams

Als the author of other such gems as:

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Especially those who inhabit no 10..

[DonnyOsmond]

Tyke.

I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.

At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.

So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.

Billy

There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .

Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .

So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .

Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .

However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .

They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .

I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .

They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .

Well that's wrong. In South Yorkshire the EU has invested over £200m into projects that have created local jobs. The EU prioritise funding to the areas which are most neglected in funding by their nations government which South Yorkshire is one of them...

https://www.myeu.uk/area/DN

[i_ateallthepies]

Tyke.

I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.

At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.

So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.

Billy

There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .

Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .

So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .

Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .

However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .

They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .

I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .

They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .

Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke.  What bizarre logic you have.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's a funny 'neoliberal' 'market led' organisation that has centralised interventionist policies such as CAP as an integral part of what they do.

[Filo]

I get the feeling there will be a deal, we are just watching the theatrics playing out now

[wilts rover]

Tyke.

I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.

At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.

So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.

Billy

There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .

Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .

So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .

Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .

However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .

They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .

I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .

They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .

Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke.  What bizarre logic you have.

I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?

https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697

[drfchound]

Anyone selling waterproof jackets, hats, gloves and scarves should experience a rise in sales I suppose.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I get the feeling there will be a deal, we are just watching the theatrics playing out now

If I could believe that this government is either organised, trustworthy or just plain clued up enough for this to be likely it would be some small comfort. As it is...

[BillyStubbsTears]

How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?

If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.

Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.