Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on November 04, 2020, 01:55:38 am
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Looking like the nightmare scenario.
Massive win for Biden on the national vote share.
Much tighter on the Electoral College and Pennsylvania looking key. But Pennsylvania counts mail in votes very slowly. So this could take days to resolve. Meanwhile, based on the votes cast today, Trump insists he has won and starts firing up his base to resist if the mail in votes take Pennsylvania off him.
Going to be ugly...
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Watching sky news right now and most places seem to close to call
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Barring strange results elsewhere, Biden needs to win Michigan and Wisconsin plus any one of:
Florida
Georgia
North Carolina
Arizona
Pennsylvania.
Current votes counted put Trump ahead in the first three of those. Arizona was always a knife edge. That's why Pennsylvania is looking key. If it is, we'll not know a result for several days.
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There'll be no shenanigans from me. If the results are as close over the next 2 days as they seem to be, I'll just pay my £50 into the Rovers foodbank anyway, no matter who looks likely to win.
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It's starting to feel a little like 2016 again.
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At times like now I wonder just one thing. Is it me ? Is it me thats out of touch (albeit with another Nations Politics) and Trump really is something different to what I actually see him as.
I cant believe that so many people still see a Trump that I dont. He seems to insult them - be racist in the extreme - appoint hire fire who he sees fit and yet in some States they seem to vote 60/40 in his favour
In as much as I have noticed in my lifetime he (to me) is without doubt the worst there has been and yet here "we" are possibly stuck with him for another 4 years
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Got to remember Americans are on a whole quite different to us in their political views. Even the views of Biden would be seen as far too central or right wing to the left in this country, it is generally a more right wing country and trump plays up to that narrative. He also plays on the optimism card and promises to give Americans more money in their pockets. That's always a good selling point.
Add to that as I've said all along Biden is not a strong opposition in my view and his campaign just doesn't inspire like say Obama did or even for all his faults Trump.
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Just watching and listening to the coverage from ABC News America live coverage and they were talking about the positive effect the optimism that trump pushes out all the time (true or not) having an effect on voters.
I'll reaching for the bottle very soon I think
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Just watching and listening to the coverage from ABC News America live coverage and they were talking about the positive effect the optimism that trump pushes out all the time (true or not) having an effect on voters.
I'll reaching for the bottle very soon I think
I do not claim to be a socialist Sydney but I find Trump abhorrent. The man is behaving like a dictator, not a USA president.
Don’t think Biden would be good for USA economy which will not be good for the UK. But Trump is a danger to himself never mind the world.
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Trump declaring victory and going to the Supreme Court, millions of votes become worthless, or as he would say ‘fraudulent’. I really worry about democracy.
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Just watching and listening to the coverage from ABC News America live coverage and they were talking about the positive effect the optimism that trump pushes out all the time (true or not) having an effect on voters.
I'll reaching for the bottle very soon I think
I do not claim to be a socialist Sydney but I find Trump abhorrent. The man is behaving like a dictator, not a USA president.
Don’t think Biden would be good for USA economy which will not be good for the UK. But Trump is a danger to himself never mind the world.
My view of a Biden win would be that he would stabilise the WH and the country (if trump supporters allow it) He will have a mountain of a workload and normalise relations with other countries.
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Frankly I never saw a candidate as unispiring as Biden. How they managed to make him their pick to go up against Trump, I'll never understand.
Everytime Obama leant him support, he looked the real deal by comparison.
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Trump declaring victory and going to the Supreme Court, millions of votes become worthless, or as he would say ‘fraudulent’. I really worry about democracy.
I have said also leading on from your point that if he gets a second term that he will then try to change to Constitution (like Putin did) to allow himself a chance of further terms in the future
Ive seen so much "twisting" of the truth from him - that I would not put it past him. Even he might not get away with it though
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Pensylvania and Georgia will be the key seats now. If they go blue then Bidens done it. If either go red then Trump's won the election.
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America has a strange way of deciding elections, how can half a dozen states decide who becomes President, it’s like the rest of the Country does n’t matter and its a waste of time voting
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Same as here Filonbut just on a larger scale.
The real outrage there though is that Biden is probably going to win the overall popular vote by 4-5%, but possibly lose the election. That really isn't a fit for purpose democratic system.
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America has a strange way of deciding elections, how can half a dozen states decide who becomes President, it’s like the rest of the Country does n’t matter and its a waste of time voting
Based on population, isn't it? A desert shouldn't get the same say as NY or California.
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I am really not bothered who wins another countries elections at all, in fact this is the first time I have commented at all.
My gut feeling is that if Biden wins within his first presidency he will step aside on health grounds and we will have the first woman president which will be no bad thing considering the last two men.
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America has a strange way of deciding elections, how can half a dozen states decide who becomes President, it’s like the rest of the Country does n’t matter and its a waste of time voting
Based on population, isn't it? A desert shouldn't get the same say as NY or California.
True.
But Wyoming with 600,000 population gets 3 Electoral College votes. 200,000 per vote.
California with 40million population, gets 55 votes. 725,000 per vote. It is a grossly undemocratic system.
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America has a strange way of deciding elections, how can half a dozen states decide who becomes President, it’s like the rest of the Country does n’t matter and its a waste of time voting
Based on population, isn't it? A desert shouldn't get the same say as NY or California.
I have n’t a clue, from what I read some states give all their electoral college votes to the winner, and a few states split them into the winners of districts, in my opinion it’s a really strange and complicated way to decide a Presidential election
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America has a strange way of deciding elections, how can half a dozen states decide who becomes President, it’s like the rest of the Country does n’t matter and its a waste of time voting
Based on population, isn't it? A desert shouldn't get the same say as NY or California.
Yes its a strange system but of course its their system - and there are many articles explaining it and how it can mean all votes are not equal
We are no better though with FPTP - but till either change you can have Trump winning with 3 or 4 million votes less than Clinton got - and who knows maybe 2 million or more less than Biden
Seems that is a fairly recent scenario though
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The US is a really weird country in every way. Money is God in America. Morals take no part in their thinking and without doubt the majority of the population are the thickest people you can imagine. I remember my first visit many years ago when the company I worked for visited Florida to plan the first holidays offered from the UK to Miami. Boy was it interesting.
The fact that the majority of them haven't got a passport because they never leave the country tells you a lot. Nobody or nowhere else matters to them.
The best saying I ever heard explains a lot about them. Q. "Why do we have wars in the world?" A. "To help the Americans learn geography!"
I believe no matter what the result of the election Trump will do everything in his power to still be POTUS for the next 4 years and there will a huge amount of civil unrest.
He is a covid denier and did anyone notice how many of his disciples wore masks this morning? Covid will never go away whilst this clown rules the largest infected country in the world.
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I've been saying for weeks that Trump would immediately challenge the legitimacy of the mail in votes and use dangerously inflamatory language to stir up his angry supporters. I've often wondered if I was overplaying it and being too dramatic, but he's done it before even going to bed on polling day. he's claimed that he's won and the Democrats are trying to steal the election.
This is horrifically dangerous. Whoever wins, he is widening fractures in society and undermining trust in the very basis of democracy. And potentially stirring up violence.
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Trump is like the vote remain of brexit, have a vote then just refuse to accept the result and no doubt try and get it overturned
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Trump is like the vote remain of brexit, have a vote then just refuse to accept the result and no doubt try and get it overturned
What a ridiculous statement
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Trump is like the vote remain of brexit, have a vote then just refuse to accept the result and no doubt try and get it overturned
What a ridiculous statement
in what what way? There was a vote leave won the remain tried for the next 2 years to overturn the result! Of course it’s not the same but the principle is the same people didn’t get the result they wanted and refused to accept it
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The fact that the majority of them haven't got a passport because they never leave the country tells you a lot. Nobody or nowhere else matters to them.
Ive toured there many times - and have now been stopped 1 short of visiting half the States (stuck on 24)
Its right what you say about Passports and it goes further than that. On a tour of New England 20 years or so since I was checking out of a very posh Motel in Vermont and the lady owner asked if we were going anywhere nice that day - yes I said New Hampshire
She said - yes they tell me its really nice. I said what have you never been and she said NO. She lived I estimated 60 miles from the border with NH. At its widest part Vermont would be 100 miles from its Western border to its Eastern border with New Hampshire so she must have really loved Vermont
I worked (by being sold to) an American Company and on the day I went into EH&S I was welcomed by loads of Colleagues in Ohio - and they all sent me best wishes and asked me questions and I replied to most - well I have been to the USA and been in 23 States and want to do the lot. Most of them could not get above 3 and again that must be a choice but it being so big they call a trip of a lifetime a Tour of the West Coast if they are back east - not going to Europe or the Far East
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Trump is like the vote remain of brexit, have a vote then just refuse to accept the result and no doubt try and get it overturned
What a ridiculous statement
in what what way? There was a vote leave won the remain tried for the next 2 years to overturn the result! Of course it’s not the same but the principle is the same people didn’t get the result they wanted and refused to accept it
There isnt a result yet for anyone to overturn or not respect - and one of the Parties (Trump) cannot claim victory as he has 213 "Seats" and he needs 270. Neither can Biden who is still on 224.
So bit early for saying Trump is not respecting the Vote as he has not lost yet
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Trump is like the vote remain of brexit, have a vote then just refuse to accept the result and no doubt try and get it overturned
What a ridiculous statement
in what what way? There was a vote leave won the remain tried for the next 2 years to overturn the result! Of course it’s not the same but the principle is the same people didn’t get the result they wanted and refused to accept it
In what way? Trump wants to use the courts to negate the vote of the people. Remain wanted the people to democratically vote again on the final deal. That way.
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Trump is like the vote remain of brexit, have a vote then just refuse to accept the result and no doubt try and get it overturned
What a ridiculous statement
in what what way? There was a vote leave won the remain tried for the next 2 years to overturn the result! Of course it’s not the same but the principle is the same people didn’t get the result they wanted and refused to accept it
Bullshit.
The post brexit referendum argument for a second referendum was about there being no definition of the finer detail of what Leave actually means in practice. It’s nearly 4 and a half yeas on and it’s still no clearer..
That was the issue, it wasn’t about not accepting the result. Totally different argument so there is no analogy here..
What Trump was saying this morning was more like arguing for a football match to finish early when you’re winning by one goal, but to carry on for the full 90 minutes plus, when you’re losing.
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Trump is like the vote remain of brexit, have a vote then just refuse to accept the result and no doubt try and get it overturned
What a ridiculous statement
in what what way? There was a vote leave won the remain tried for the next 2 years to overturn the result! Of course it’s not the same but the principle is the same people didn’t get the result they wanted and refused to accept it
In what way? Trump wants to use the courts to negate the vote of the people. Remain wanted the people to democratically vote again on the final deal. That way.
remain wanted another referendum then when they realised they were not going to get one they changed it to a vote on the final deal
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To be fair I was not being that serious anyway
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The bizarre thing is if there's a draw. It goes to the house state delegates to decide. The house is democrat majority but in terms of state delegates has a republican majority. Talk about confusing.
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I think we're in for some ugly legal wrangling whatever happens, but I think Trump will win. It's been on the cards for months.
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I went to bed thinking the same but it's a new day and looking a whole lot better.
The Paris Agreement Accord may be saved yet.
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Trump is behaving like a third world country dictator.
The man has lost the plot completely. He is going to end up starting riots across the country.
The most divisive President in history I suspect.
He seriously thinks he can make a legal challenge to the result because he has the woman who is head of the Supreme Court on board.
Democracy. Give me a break. There is more democracy going on in Russia and China.
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The irony to me "looking in" is that he says "this election is being stolen from Republican voters and is therefore undemocratic" - so he wanted the counting stopped
He just thinks that his supporters have been "robbed" and yet they may indeed win via the Courts despite actually not winning "in the real count".
So he would be happy to accept victory of lets say 50.1% to 49.9% - even if the true figures** were exactly the opposite - but then would not have a single guilty bone in his body not shred of conscience or any cries of they (the Democrats) have had the Election stolen from them having actually "won"** with say 270
Ironic indeed
** The difficult thing is knowing definitively what those true figures are (or will be) but for true Democracy surely everyone who can vote and has voted should have their votes counted. That would be a start
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For anyone who's really geeky and has twitter. A fascinating thread here about geology, history and the us elections.
https://twitter.com/latifnasser/status/1323333293467525126?s=19
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That?s cheered me up. :thumbsup:
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That?s cheered me up. :thumbsup:
Then my work here is done. 👍
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Trump supporters turning up at vote counts armed with rifles, are we seeing a major nuclear power descending into civil war?
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Rudi Guliani and Trump Jnr now on the "warpath" suggesting that they needed to see every vote as "men from Mars" might have voted for all we know OR Biden might have voted 5000 times for himself
I refer them to Reply #36 above
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The Spoilt bas**rd in chief wants to stop legitimate postal votes being counted.
Generally in the USA Republican supporters following Trump?s example ignore Covid. It?s the opposite with Democrats who subsequently feel safer voting by post.
Trump knows that, and he knows that the postal votes will take longer to count, therefore the Democrat share will rise, potentially enough to win in PA etc. That?s why he?s panicking and threatening legal action without a leg to stand on.
What a stupid Kitson..
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Why is this site replacing apostrophes with question marks.?
That?s what I?m seeing anyway..
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A song for the times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glggureA_Kk
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He's far from stupid. This is all part of the plan. It might work this time. He might have enough Supreme Court poodles to pull this off. If he doesn't, there's a long term plan. Fire up the base full of ignorant banger that they had the election stolen from them. Set him.up for another run in 2024. Declare as a candidate very soon. That gives him some protection against the inevitable tsunami of prosecutions that come his way otherwise, once he's no longer President.
You have to see everything he does as protecting Donald J Trump. Then it all makes sense.
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Yes and I saw yesterday somewhere :
If Trump loses he will be trying to become the next President in 2024 AND is already working on exactly that
If Trump wins he will be trying to become the next President in 2024 and is already working on that in case he wins this time
He is not allowed to stand for a third term but can anyone not hear him saying " well folks they tried to steal the election (steal it). However they failed - they failed because we and you have made the USA great again really great
In fact we've done really well (so well) polling a record number of votes - a record folks _ that you obviously want to carry on (just carry on making it great) and recognise me as the President to do it - you know I can (I really can folks)
So I will be hoping for your support - just like 2016 and especially this Election where they tried to rob us - rob us right there - as I try to change the rules to allow Presidents to serve for more than the current 2 Terms. Who is with me - let me hear you "4 more years four more years "
Crowd dutifully take up his offer. Far fetched ? Im not sure personally. I would not put ANYTHING past him
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He?s a stupid Kitson if he can?t understand that the rest of the world can see exactly what he?s up to..
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He?s a stupid Kitson if he can?t understand that the rest of the world can see exactly what he?s up to..
He does n?t care about the rest of the World, or the damage he does to it
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IDM
He doesn't give a toss how the rest of the world sees him. He's been in an existential fight for years to save himself from financial ruin and prison. The whole Presidency run was part of that. This is just the next phase. He will do whatever it takes and if America gets ripped apart in the meantime, so be it.
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If Biden wins he'll be gone within a year and the Marxist will be in power. Who would have ever thought that America would become a communist state?
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If Biden wins he'll be gone within a year and the Marxist will be in power. Who would have ever thought that America would become a communist state?
No one, as they won't be. No one in US politics is a Communist. You don't know what communism is. The furthest anyone is on the spectrum is Bernie who is a social democrat. Kamala Harris is centre-right, so if Biden goes it'll be like Theresa May taking over.
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If Biden wins he'll be gone within a year and the Marxist will be in power. Who would have ever thought that America would become a communist state?
You always guarantee a laugh AL. You should go and live in the US with the rest of the nut jobs.
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If Biden wins he'll be gone within a year and the Marxist will be in power. Who would have ever thought that America would become a communist state?
Weird that Kamala Harris is seen as some sort of dangerous extremist by you fascist types. Wonder why that is?
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If Biden wins he'll be gone within a year and the Marxist will be in power. Who would have ever thought that America would become a communist state?
Jesus wept. Is there any wonder the Chinese think we are stupid for having a democratic system, when people with batshit ideas like this have a vote?
There is no-one remotely close to power in the USA who is anything remotely close to Marxist. Even Bernie Sanders would be a moderate centre-left politician here. You clearly haven't got a clue what Marxism is. Nor have the millions of others who repeat this bullshit.
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If Biden wins he'll be gone within a year and the Marxist will be in power. Who would have ever thought that America would become a communist state?
Weird that Kamala Harris is seen as some sort of dangerous extremist by you fascist types. Wonder why that is?
Because she is. How long will it be before the US will be at war with someone if this shower get in?
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If Biden wins he'll be gone within a year and the Marxist will be in power. Who would have ever thought that America would become a communist state?
Jesus wept. Is there any wonder the Chinese think we are stupid for having a democratic system, when people with batshit ideas like this have a vote?
There is no-one remotely close to power in the USA who is anything remotely close to Marxist. Even Bernie Sanders would be a moderate centre-left politician here. You clearly haven't got a clue what Marxism is. Nor have the millions of others who repeat this bullshit.
Marxism is what Corbyn and has rag tag army of jew haters was all about.
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As stated before I am not in the slightest bit interested in who wins an election in any country apart from the UK.
I really think though that this could be a good election to lose over the pond.
The reports on the cull of Mink in Denmark and Spain as Covid has mutated and found in the mink farms is really worrying for wildlife and stock alike if their is a chance of it getting in the food chain if it can jump from one animal to another. Hopefully a big if.
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From the BBC just now, if that is true its all over bar the court case
In just a few minutes, we are expecting the Philadelphia City Commissioners to give an update on the ongoing mail-in ballot count.
Trump's lead in the swing state of Pennsylvania, which he won in 2016, has been falling as more postal votes are tallied.
Trump is currently leading by around 160,000 votes, but Philadelphia election officials say that they are now counting approximately nine Biden mail-in ballots for every Trump postal ballot.
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If Biden wins he'll be gone within a year and the Marxist will be in power. Who would have ever thought that America would become a communist state?
I bet you don't even know what Marxism is AL and if you did you'd have to google it .
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Anything to the left of Hitler is Marxism to some people. Then again, these same people are part of the "nAzIs WeRe SoCiAlIsTs" brigade.
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What does Nazi stand for?
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What does Nazi stand for?
https://fullfact.org/online/nazis-socialists/
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What does Nazi stand for?
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What does Nazi stand for?
Do you not know - shocking! Don't they teach anything in school these days?
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What does Nazi stand for?
Do you not know - shocking! Don't they teach anything in school these days?
Not at the moment. I've stopped going because someone told me they're all full up and the kids are queueing outside unable to get in.
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The more I read about the two main party's in the US the more I'm convinced that the Democrats are the Conservative Party of Thatcher's era and the Republicans are way to the right of UKIP .
No fecking wonder the country's a powder keg .
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Of course, Trump has made a career out of stuffing people then intimidating them into accepting they've been stiffed by threatening cripplingly expensive legal action.
He's now going berserk trying to do the same thing against the entire country. Be fascinating viewing if it wasn't so horribly dangerous for the future of America.
Here's how wild things are now. Fox News called Arizona for Biden yesterday. Apparently Trump phoned up Murdoch and screamed at him to get Fox to backtrack. And Murdoch told him to do one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/
Trump is a very dangerous beast now. Probably mortally wounded, but still the most powerful person in the world.
A narcissist, a man unable to accept criticism from anyone, rejected by the people and those he thought were on his side. I hope someone is keeping an eye on him and the nuclear football.
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Of course, Trump has made a career out of stuffing people then intimidating them into accepting they've been stiffed by threatening cripplingly expensive legal action.
He's now going berserk trying to do the same thing against the entire country. Be fascinating viewing if it wasn't so horribly dangerous for the future of America.
Here's how wild things are now. Fox News called Arizona for Biden yesterday. Apparently Trump phoned up Murdoch and screamed at him to get Fox to backtrack. And Murdoch told him to do one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/
Trump is a very dangerous beast now. Probably mortally wounded, but still the most powerful person in the world.
A narcissist, a man unable to accept criticism from anyone, rejected by the people and those he thought were on his side. I hope someone is keeping an eye on him and the nuclear football.
Just read tonight he could stand again in 2024 providing he loses this election of course .
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Of course, Trump has made a career out of stuffing people then intimidating them into accepting they've been stiffed by threatening cripplingly expensive legal action.
He's now going berserk trying to do the same thing against the entire country. Be fascinating viewing if it wasn't so horribly dangerous for the future of America.
Here's how wild things are now. Fox News called Arizona for Biden yesterday. Apparently Trump phoned up Murdoch and screamed at him to get Fox to backtrack. And Murdoch told him to do one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/
Trump is a very dangerous beast now. Probably mortally wounded, but still the most powerful person in the world.
A narcissist, a man unable to accept criticism from anyone, rejected by the people and those he thought were on his side. I hope someone is keeping an eye on him and the nuclear football.
Just read tonight he could stand again in 2024 providing he loses this election of course .
Can a convicted criminal stand for President?
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Of course, Trump has made a career out of stuffing people then intimidating them into accepting they've been stiffed by threatening cripplingly expensive legal action.
He's now going berserk trying to do the same thing against the entire country. Be fascinating viewing if it wasn't so horribly dangerous for the future of America.
Here's how wild things are now. Fox News called Arizona for Biden yesterday. Apparently Trump phoned up Murdoch and screamed at him to get Fox to backtrack. And Murdoch told him to do one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/
Trump is a very dangerous beast now. Probably mortally wounded, but still the most powerful person in the world.
A narcissist, a man unable to accept criticism from anyone, rejected by the people and those he thought were on his side. I hope someone is keeping an eye on him and the nuclear football.
Just read tonight he could stand again in 2024 providing he loses this election of course .
Can a convicted criminal stand for President?
Probably pardon himself before he finally hands over to Biden .
:thumbsup:
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Of course, Trump has made a career out of stuffing people then intimidating them into accepting they've been stiffed by threatening cripplingly expensive legal action.
He's now going berserk trying to do the same thing against the entire country. Be fascinating viewing if it wasn't so horribly dangerous for the future of America.
Here's how wild things are now. Fox News called Arizona for Biden yesterday. Apparently Trump phoned up Murdoch and screamed at him to get Fox to backtrack. And Murdoch told him to do one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/
Trump is a very dangerous beast now. Probably mortally wounded, but still the most powerful person in the world.
A narcissist, a man unable to accept criticism from anyone, rejected by the people and those he thought were on his side. I hope someone is keeping an eye on him and the nuclear football.
Just read tonight he could stand again in 2024 providing he loses this election of course .
Can a convicted criminal stand for President?
Only if your Nelson Mandela!
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I think the Democrats are smart enough to delay any court action against him till after he loses all power.
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Whose Nelson Mandela?
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Just dawned on me. These Trump supporters in Arizona protesting outside the ballot halls screaming Stop The Count.
He's behind in Arizona. If they stop the count, he loses!
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I think the Democrats are smart enough to delay any court action against him till after he loses all power.
Whose Nelson Mandela?
South Africa's
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Of course, Trump has made a career out of stuffing people then intimidating them into accepting they've been stiffed by threatening cripplingly expensive legal action.
He's now going berserk trying to do the same thing against the entire country. Be fascinating viewing if it wasn't so horribly dangerous for the future of America.
Here's how wild things are now. Fox News called Arizona for Biden yesterday. Apparently Trump phoned up Murdoch and screamed at him to get Fox to backtrack. And Murdoch told him to do one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/
Trump is a very dangerous beast now. Probably mortally wounded, but still the most powerful person in the world.
A narcissist, a man unable to accept criticism from anyone, rejected by the people and those he thought were on his side. I hope someone is keeping an eye on him and the nuclear football.
Just read tonight he could stand again in 2024 providing he loses this election of course .
Can a convicted criminal stand for President?
Probably pardon himself before he finally hands over to Biden .
:thumbsup:
Apparently he can't.
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Of course, Trump has made a career out of stuffing people then intimidating them into accepting they've been stiffed by threatening cripplingly expensive legal action.
He's now going berserk trying to do the same thing against the entire country. Be fascinating viewing if it wasn't so horribly dangerous for the future of America.
Here's how wild things are now. Fox News called Arizona for Biden yesterday. Apparently Trump phoned up Murdoch and screamed at him to get Fox to backtrack. And Murdoch told him to do one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/
Trump is a very dangerous beast now. Probably mortally wounded, but still the most powerful person in the world.
A narcissist, a man unable to accept criticism from anyone, rejected by the people and those he thought were on his side. I hope someone is keeping an eye on him and the nuclear football.
Just read tonight he could stand again in 2024 providing he loses this election of course .
Can a convicted criminal stand for President?
Only if your Nelson Mandela!
I would be delighted for Trump to stand for president again, after he?s also done 20 odd years worth of porridge..
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Of course, Trump has made a career out of stuffing people then intimidating them into accepting they've been stiffed by threatening cripplingly expensive legal action.
He's now going berserk trying to do the same thing against the entire country. Be fascinating viewing if it wasn't so horribly dangerous for the future of America.
Here's how wild things are now. Fox News called Arizona for Biden yesterday. Apparently Trump phoned up Murdoch and screamed at him to get Fox to backtrack. And Murdoch told him to do one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/trump-reportedly-screamed-at-murdoch-after-fox-news-called-arizona-for-biden/amp/)
Trump is a very dangerous beast now. Probably mortally wounded, but still the most powerful person in the world.
A narcissist, a man unable to accept criticism from anyone, rejected by the people and those he thought were on his side. I hope someone is keeping an eye on him and the nuclear football.
Just read tonight he could stand again in 2024 providing he loses this election of course .
Aye it may have been Reply #47 on Page 2
Worryingly if he does win this time or in 4 years time he could try to get the Constitution amended with the help of his supporters and get extra Term(s) in Office - a la Putin - who knows ?
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Bloody hell, Trump will be 78 in four years time! How on earth can a bloke of that age become POTUS? :ohmy: :facepalm:
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Even if Biden wins this election it has still been a disaster for the Democrats and something that should concern non tories in the UK .
Trump's popularity has actually held up , in fact it's more than that he's won more votes than he did in 2016 .
I reckon without Covid he may have actually won this , he still might of course .
To send this populist brand of politics packing the Democrats had to win big and if they are successful it's by a c@ck hair .
Populism ain't going anywhere , I'd take note if I was you Starmer .
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Apparently Trump is desperate to speak publicly and his team is pulling out all the stops to stop him. So he's restricted to twitter outbursts. Oh to be a fly on that wall.
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Bloody hell, Trump will be 78 in four years time! How on earth can a bloke of that age become POTUS? :ohmy: :facepalm:
I was going to post that, especially one that has just spent the whole of this campaign saying that 78 is too old to be President.
Great minds think alike eh, and clowns.
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Even if Biden wins this election it has still been a disaster for the Democrats and something that should concern non tories in the UK .
Trump's popularity has actually held up , in fact it's more than that he's won more votes than he did in 2016 .
I reckon without Covid he may have actually won this , he still might of course .
To send this populist brand of politics packing the Democrats had to win big and if they are successful it's by a c@ck hair .
Populism ain't going anywhere , I'd take note if I was you Starmer .
Tyke.
What policies do you reckon the Democrats could have presented that would have stopped people voting for Trump?
By the way, it's not a close election. Biden is going to win the Electoral College by at least 290-248. And the popular vote by probably 5 million.
We are only calling this close because of the delay in counting postal votes. If they'd been counted at the same time as the in person votes, this would have been over and done 36 hours ago. Don't fall into the Republicans' trap of believing this is close because of legislation they have passed to delay the postal vote count.
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Here's a nostalgic reminder of times when Presidential losers had grace and dignity.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Freedland/status/1324280879561232385
But then I suppose Bush didn't face bankruptcy and jail when he lost because he hadn't spent his life as a career criminal.
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I do wonder what Trump's concession speech will be like. Will he even do one? Is it a formal requirement or just a traditional thing?
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I don't think it's s formal requirement. If a candidate decides to act like a petulant, egotistical man-child when they lose, and stay at home stoking conspiracy theories that say they won really, that's their choice. They've still lost and they won't be resident in the White House come January.
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They aren't even trying to be sophisticated with their fake conspiracies.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1324375334653988864
As of this moment, Trump trails by 11,500 or so in Nevada. The total number of mail in or early votes so far counted?
937.
Just like certain right wing populists here, they work on the assumption that their supporters are utterly clueless and ready to swallow anything.
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And again.
Trump has just said at his press conference that Pennsylvania has allowed votes to be placed "3 days after the election and...uh...much longer than that."
The election was still in progress 2 days ago.
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Holy shit, I'm watching a NBC stream and Trump is holding a press conference. Every single Alex Jones-tier conspiracy theory is spilling out of his mouth. If there's a far-right wingnut theory about the election that you've heard, he's banging on about it. He is absolutely terrified.
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Yep MM. This is the start of the coup attempt.
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This is what happens when people blithely say "all politicians are as bad as each other ". It normalised the idea that anyone can make any unfounded accusation and it be accepted. All it needed was for a real psychopathic liar to roll up and take advantage. It's playing out now. Let's see if democracy is really strong enough to face it down.
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Good God! It looks like Biden has swung Georgia! He's 3000 votes behind with 19,000 left to count. And he's been winning 75/25 on the most recent counts.
And Trump is even accusing that most Republican of states of cheating to let Biden win.
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I wonder if the GOP will finally develop a spine and stand up to him. They will probably think they still have the senate - barring a shock in the Georgia run-off - and are a decent midterm away from taking back the House. Do they really want to be tarred with all this shite? Or is the lure of being the Trump Party, undoubtedly a brand that gets them votes, too strong?
Fair play to the majority of US news stations who simply refused to broadcast that Trump speech after he started claiming victory, as well. But sadly the people he wants to hear it, will have heard it.
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MM
McConnell is key here. He's got everything he wanted from Trump. He's got a 6-3 Supreme Court. He's got 400 conservative justices on lower courts. He said in this theme just last week (and it was breathtakingly brazen) "we may lose the Presidency but they can't take this change away from us."
I suspect McConnell is letting Trump light the fire under the Republican base. Then he'll knife him and look to use that fire to turbocharge another far right populist in 2024, after he's spent the next 4 years using the Senate to block every Biden policy.
That's the optimistic scenario.
The pessimistic one is that the entire Republican party goes all in on Trump's attempted coup, and the Supreme Court approves the legal challenges.
If that happens, God help us, because it truly is the start of a total breakdown.
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McConnell doing what's best for McConnell isn't in doubt, BST. As you say he already has the Court set up for - in theory - decades. However, the dilemma he has is;
If he knifes Trump, what will that do to the Republican base?
If he stands by Trump as he tries to burn the country down, what will that do to swing voters?
He has to be careful, because if Trump's antics start to bleed into the Georgia senate race which looks certain to go to a run-off, then he may well lose the Senate. That could open the door to the Dems implementing Supreme Court reform, whether that's packing the court, term limits, or something else. I guarantee you he's frantically trying to come up with an answer to that dilemma before the election is called.
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Good call about the Georgia Senate seat run off. I hadn't processed that one.
This would be fascinating to watch as a neutral. If the future of the planet wasn't on the line.
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I have just seen what Trump has said again overnight - and having had 36 hours to think about it a 7 year old would have made a better job of it
"If they count the legal Vote I easily win - if they count the illegal votes they CAN try to steal the Election from me"
What an odious horrible playground bully of a man he is (or appears to be to me) - I cant win so Im taking my ball home . He is one of theose people who you (well at least me) desperately WANT the opposite of what they want to happen.
His ramblings overnight were just described as the rantings you would expect of someone in a Third world country but (imo) it is so ironic in that the USA sends observers to watch such places and yet here one of the protagonists is calling the Election " a corrupt democratic machine"
I really hope they dump Trump because I for one could not bear it if he wins because you somehow know he will then say "the result was never in doubt - I knew that - we knew that and in fact I said so BUT I knew there were people and organisations desperate to keep me from getting the second Term I deserve and you agree I deserve and so I had to defend your right not to have the Election stolen JUST because they wanted that"
I am sure he will couch it better that I could but I didnt get 36 Hours to write his speech (if indeed anyone actually does write that stuff)
Seriously what does he expect though? Virus was rampant so millions swamp the Mail (which he wanted to stop weeks ago before they even got dropped in the Post Boxes dont forget) BECAUSE he knew Democrats were voting in their millions that way because they "feared" catching the Virus
He failed to get postal voting "outlawed" so then developed the "stealing the Election" routine. BUT all those votes were still sat there waiting to be counted but in some States (dont forget they are Countries not Counties) they have totally different Laws to others and some like Pennsylvania cannot by law be counted until the walk in Votes cast have been counted (and it has always been that way)
So put simply - in Pennsylvania for instance Trump supporters walk up and place their votes. Trump has a lead sometimes a big lead as they are counted but then when they start on the Mailed in votes largely from Urban Biden supporters the gap starts to narrow and eventually because some of these Votes are going 90% to 10% in favour of the Biden camp Biden takes the lead and goes on to win.
Really they dont do themselves any favours though for a Country (or collection of Countries) with supposed brains and tech that sent a man to the moon because they dont count count more quickly - that they drip out the Vote count and percentages continuously instead of keeping stum as we do in our Constituncies - which allows News networks to be all over them desperate to "call" a State for Biden or Trump because they are looking like they have won it and the News Channel wants to be first with that News
They are a Federal collection and imo its up to them but surely they should just decide such an important race by popular vote - that is Candidaate A has amassed x votes and Candidate B has amassed y votes - a straight race which this time round would have favoured Biden as he has 4 million votes more and a clear cut result rather than the contrives EC System
They should have the same rules wherever they are on something so important - so the Votes are received and counted in the same way and maybe even released "as one" whole result at the same time or can be collated as in the Eurovision if they want tension
AND above all they should bloody count quicker !
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Even if Biden wins this election it has still been a disaster for the Democrats and something that should concern non tories in the UK .
Trump's popularity has actually held up , in fact it's more than that he's won more votes than he did in 2016 .
I reckon without Covid he may have actually won this , he still might of course .
To send this populist brand of politics packing the Democrats had to win big and if they are successful it's by a c@ck hair .
Populism ain't going anywhere , I'd take note if I was you Starmer .
Tyke.
What policies do you reckon the Democrats could have presented that would have stopped people voting for Trump?
By the way, it's not a close election. Biden is going to win the Electoral College by at least 290-248. And the popular vote by probably 5 million.
We are only calling this close because of the delay in counting postal votes. If they'd been counted at the same time as the in person votes, this would have been over and done 36 hours ago. Don't fall into the Republicans' trap of believing this is close because of legislation they have passed to delay the postal vote count.
What I find particularly worrying Billy is that almost 70 million Americans voted for Trump having had a good look at him for four years in the job .
That's not the kind of return that puts populism out of the game and given the nature of Trump , the catastrophic leadership and his handling of Covid 19 I'd have expected a lot less than that .
The differential in votes between Biden and Trump is 4 million in a country of that size .
That should worry us all in my opinion .
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Trump looked gone already at his last presser, a lot of accusations of course but no fire, no rants, nothing, like he was going through the motions.
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Ironic as he reminds me OF a motion
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it will be poetry in motion when he does go Wolf, less than 700 votes difference in Georgia
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Biden 463 votes behind in Georgia
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So whilst it's clear Donald is out of the White House I do wonder what happens next. Once the spurious legal cases have been thrown out, I can see him continuing to be a massive political agitator from the comfort of Trump Tower. He will proclaim himself the "true President" and continue to hold rallies, mobilising his support base in criticism of the corrupt political system and "the swamp" who stole an election etc. He will be a thorn in the side of the Democrats at every turn, compounded by the fact that they look like being largely impotent and unable to do anything meaningful due to not having the senate. Then Trump runs again in 2024 in an even more divided and stirred up Country and I suspect he may very well win bigly at that point. I daresay his platform will include constitutional reform high on its agenda. That's when people should start worrying! It could ultimately have been better had he won this time and seen out the next four years before buggering off into obscurity.
Trump 2024...get your money on it is my view! Unless they manage to finally get him convicted in the meantime that is!
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Or altermatively the Republicans nominate another candidate.?
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Yes he will be doing the "Loco - motion" soon as there seems to be thousand upon thousands of votes still to count
North Carolina & Nevada have till November the 12th to count their votes and say they will need all that ! Yet in Nevada they are using machines to count
Seriously they need a new system of counting and reporting etc because such a thing as North Carolina and Nevada play right into Trumps hands. Also the go slow in Nevada and Arizona dont help - although in the past it seems to have been ok for them.
Usually the Networks rush to "call" States for one candidate or the other just to be first and when they are not yet certified results and it has always been that way - just this time it is so close everybody has an opinion.
The States should perhaps get their a***s in gear and agree how they do it going forwards and not leave Trump with an open goal
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I think the Vice President Pence and the cabinet can declare Trump unfit for office and Pence becomes President until January. This could be seen to be the Republicans trying to at least repair some of the damage done to them by this maniac. Pence may well then issue a pardon to Trump in return for Trump slinking away, the danger then for Pence is he then becomes the target for Trumps criminal activities
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Biden 463 votes behind in Georgia
Biden's leading now. :)
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Filo. There's no pardon to be awarded because Trump hasn't been convicted of anything.
Yet.
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The world needs some good news, it could be better but I couldn't think of a better way to start.
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MM
McConnell is key here. He's got everything he wanted from Trump. He's got a 6-3 Supreme Court. He's got 400 conservative justices on lower courts. He said in this theme just last week (and it was breathtakingly brazen) "we may lose the Presidency but they can't take this change away from us."
I suspect McConnell is letting Trump light the fire under the Republican base. Then he'll knife him and look to use that fire to turbocharge another far right populist in 2024, after he's spent the next 4 years using the Senate to block every Biden policy.
That's the optimistic scenario.
The pessimistic one is that the entire Republican party goes all in on Trump's attempted coup, and the Supreme Court approves the legal challenges.
If that happens, God help us, because it truly is the start of a total breakdown.
It won't have escaped McConnell's notice that he personally will have more power if Trump loses. And for that same reason I doubt whether the elected Republicans will back Trump at all, they'll hang him out to dry. They'll make sympathetic noises to Trump but I can't see any of them flinging accusations of fraud about. When it comes to backing Trump's lies or the system, they'll back the system.
Trump must surely know this by now, so to me it's really all about Trump never having to say he lost, but that he was swindled and it doesn't matter if anyone believes him or not - his ego will just never let him acknowledge that he lost anything. And he'll stick to that for the rest of his life despite everybody pointing and laughing at him when he does so. My guess is that in order to keep his fantasy alive he won't ever make the traditional concession speech either because it's a public admission of defeat.
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Biden 463 votes behind in Georgia
Biden's leading now. :)
Crazy how out of 5m votes there's less than .01% in it.
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US Guardian
''There?s a lot being made on social media that two of the states that Biden has possibly flipped to take the White House from Donald Trump are the home states of the late Sen. John McCain, frequently on the receiving end of cruel barbs from the president, and the late Rep. John Lewis, civil rights icon and an implacable opponent to Trump and to racism in American society''
bit of irony there
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Even if Biden wins this election it has still been a disaster for the Democrats and something that should concern non tories in the UK .
Trump's popularity has actually held up , in fact it's more than that he's won more votes than he did in 2016 .
I reckon without Covid he may have actually won this , he still might of course .
To send this populist brand of politics packing the Democrats had to win big and if they are successful it's by a c@ck hair .
Populism ain't going anywhere , I'd take note if I was you Starmer .
Tyke.
What policies do you reckon the Democrats could have presented that would have stopped people voting for Trump?
By the way, it's not a close election. Biden is going to win the Electoral College by at least 290-248. And the popular vote by probably 5 million.
We are only calling this close because of the delay in counting postal votes. If they'd been counted at the same time as the in person votes, this would have been over and done 36 hours ago. Don't fall into the Republicans' trap of believing this is close because of legislation they have passed to delay the postal vote count.
Won't he win by about 52 48 percent split on the popular vote? Definitely not close. Rings a bell also 🤣
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Padge.
Aye. And the vote can be reversed in 4 years time if folk change their minds.
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Biden 463 votes behind in Georgia
Biden's leading now. :)
Crazy how out of 5m votes there's less than .01% in it.
Crazy that so many people can be hoodwinked by such a crook.
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I'm looking forward to seeing Trump's reaction when someone uses the phrase 'President-Elect Biden' to his face! :D
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Biden 463 votes behind in Georgia
Biden's leading now. :)
Crazy how out of 5m votes there's less than .01% in it.
Crazy that so many people can be hoodwinked by such a crook.
You're not wrong.
However a few of my friends former colleagues in America did vote trump. One mentioned why on Facebook. It's not trump it's Biden, they just didn't like him.at all or the democrats. To some Americans trump has done a good job and they can see past his idiotic ramblings. It is much easier from afar as the detailed policies don't affect us. So many will have a different take to us.
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Rumours in the press state that Putin is stepping down in January as he may be suffering from Parkinson's. How's that for a coincidence?
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I get that some people will vote for Trump despite his idiocy because he is on their side, not the other side.
What I simply do not, and will never understand, is the moral universe of a person who supports Trump when the lengths he is prepared to go to to undermine democratic processes are clear. What he was doing last night was not some panicked, off the cuff ramblings. He has been teeing up this "they stole the vote" schtick for the past couple of years. He is actively seeking to annul a fair election that he lost. What he's attempting has a name. It's called a coup d'etat. Anyone who still supports him now is knowingly collaborating with the biggest threat to American democracy since the Civil War.
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I have to say Billy, you called this one correctly.
I only hope that despite Trump being Trump, Americans, generally, will eventually see this for what it is, and that he will be held to account.
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I get that some people will vote for Trump despite his idiocy because he is on their side, not the other side.
What I simply do not, and will never understand, is the moral universe of a person who supports Trump when the lengths he is prepared to go to to undermine democratic processes are clear. What he was doing last night was not some panicked, off the cuff ramblings. He has been teeing up this "they stole the vote" schtick for the past couple of years. He is actively seeking to annul a fair election that he lost. What he's attempting has a name. It's called a coup d'etat. Anyone who still supports him now is knowingly collaborating with the biggest threat to American democracy since the Civil War.
He is a beaten man. He knows he is a beaten man and yet he still won’t accept that he could actually be a loser in this election.
He is never a loser, never loses anything and therefore the word lose for him does not exist.
What a horrible person he is. How 70 million USA citizens would want a second term from this man is quite frankly very concerning indeed.
Head of the largest Democracy in the world and he is now behaving like a third world country dictator.
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Biden is now ahead in Pennsylvania, with a lot more votes still to come in from Democrat-leaning areas.
That, folks, is the end of Trump's presidency. Barring the Supreme Court that he packed with supporters intervening, or the white supremacists he's been courting taking to the streets.
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Does anyone else see the irony in calls for johnson to call out trump for making fake claims?
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Decision Desk HQ has called PA for Biden, and with that, the Presidency. I think we'll see the race officially called today.
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'Chill!': Greta Thunberg recycles Trump's mockery of her as he tries to stop votes
Swedish teen environmental activist took her shot at the president?s rage tweet as the US formally exits from the Paris climate agreement
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I was chatting with an ex pat on visit home from States a couple of years ago We talked about Trump and his chancrs of re election, he was in no doubt that Trump had every chance, his explanation was the intelligent coastal States usually vote Democrat but everybody forgets how big USA is in the middle and that is where Trump gets his following mainly among the blue collar workers and rednecks. No wonder he can poll so heavily
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9.40am in Washington time for coffee a bit of light lunch oh and declare victory
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Here's an interesting Tweet regarding how Fox are going to handle this news -
New: Fox News is instructing its talent not to call Joe Biden the "President-elect" when the network calls the race, according to two memos obtained by @brianstelter and me. The memos say Fox should "stay away" from using the description.
https://twitter.com/oliverdarcy/status/1324721461458800641
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''CNN?s Abby Phillip said Joe Biden?s potential victory represents ?a proving moment? for the political strength of African American women.
?Carrying Joe Biden to the Democratic nomination through the primary: Black women did that,? Phillip said''
Congrats to Biden & Harris
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They?re shitting it on who?s going to tell the baby 😂😂😂
https://twitter.com/alan_mcguinness/status/1324730422920622080?s=21
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I really don't want to draw comparisons with the film Downfall, but...
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😂😂😂
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There's very little point in my honest opinion the centre or the liberal left high fiving and proclaiming the nightmare is over because it ain't so .
It wouldn't take too much for another or even Trump himself to flip this the other way in four years time on a right wing ticket .
The truth is Covid 19 won the US election and not Joe Biden , the support Biden did get was because enough people voted against Trump and not necessarily for Joe Biden which are two different things .
Nowts changed in my opinion , change only comes with sizeable election victories that shout loud , the type of wins we saw with Thatcher and Blair .
The centre of politics and their minions in the liberal left had better get their thinking caps on and start recognising globalisation and it's tentacles ain't a ticket to power and may not ever be .
You've had Brexit , you've had Trump and we still have Johnson and the only thing the centre and the liberal left have is a narrow Biden win on a Covid ticket .
There's no humiliation with Trump and his cronies , you've put the Champ on his knees taking the count of 10 but just remember you ain't knocked him out and there's plenty of rounds left in this fight .
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Fascinating insight into the schism in America here. Hit the "Size of Lead" tab under the map.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-president.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020®ion=TOP_BANNER&context=storyline_menu_recirc
As far as i can see, Trump has won only 1 county in the entire country by more than 100,000 votes. Biden has won dozens by more than that. Counties vary in size from a couple of hundred voters in the desert areas to several million in the counties covering the big cities, like LA, Chicago, Philadelphia etc, with a few hundred thousand voters in dozens of counties covering mid-size cities.
So what this means is that Trump hasn't won large victories in any large metro areas, and only in a slack handful of smaller urban areas (counties covering the suburbs of Salt Lake City, Houston etc). His vote has come from winning big in the rural areas, or winning small in suburban areas.
It's fascinating to look at the detail. Take Kentucky which is about as solid a Republican state as you can find. The overall state voted 2:1 for Trump. But in the counties covering the two big cities, Lexington and Louisville, the vote went 60:40 to Biden.
That seems to me to be a massively unhealthy rift in American society. And it is hard to see how you go about healing it.
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Fascinating insight into the schism in America here. Hit the "Size of Lead" tab under the map.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-president.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020®ion=TOP_BANNER&context=storyline_menu_recirc
As far as i can see, Trump has won only 1 county in the entire country by more than 100,000 votes. Biden has won dozens by more than that. Counties vary in size from a couple of hundred voters in the desert areas to several million in the counties covering the big cities, like LA, Chicago, Philadelphia etc, with a few hundred thousand voters in dozens of counties covering mid-size cities.
So what this means is that Trump hasn't won large victories in any large metro areas, and only in a slack handful of smaller urban areas (counties covering the suburbs of Salt Lake City, Houston etc). His vote has come from winning big in the rural areas, or winning small in suburban areas.
It's fascinating to look at the detail. Take Kentucky which is about as solid a Republican state as you can find. The overall state voted 2:1 for Trump. But in the counties covering the two big cities, Lexington and Louisville, the vote went 60:40 to Biden.
That seems to me to be a massively unhealthy rift in American society. And it is hard to see how you go about healing it.
You can analyse this election and our own all you want Billy but analysis starts for me in the late 1970's with Thatcher and Regan .
Carried on by Clinton and Blair and eventually cashed in on by Trump and Johnson .
It's called globalisation and the impact its had on the less well off in the US and UK .
The left from my background were telling you this in the 1970's .
Too many votes cast these last few years in the US and the UK on a couple of levels for all them to be classed as thick , stupid and racist .
The left are dinosaurs these days , the centre and the liberal left can't fix it because it goes against their ideology .
Expect the right to cash in at regular intervals .
We may have seen nowt yet .
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I agree about the timescale Tyke, but it has bigger all to do with globalisation. It's got everything to do with how countries divvy up the proceeds of growth. Both the UK and USA used to be far more equal in the way that income was split between the richest and poorest. What has happened since Thatcher and Reagan is that the wealthiest have been cut loose from societal obligations. They now take a far higher percentage of national wealth. And THAT is the reason the old working class is angry.
Blaming it on globalisation falls into Farage and Trump's trap. Taking that anger and blaming it on them foreign bastsrds who have taken your job.
That is not the real enemy. And I'm surprised at you, as a socialist, for not seeing where the real problem is.
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This is the most drawn out result for a result we knew yesterday morning
Farage is 10k down to.
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Just thinking Tyke. Why is it you are on a DRFC forum discussing politics? Nobody intelligent enough to debate with ont tarns site? :chair: :chair: :chair: :) :) :)
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Just thinking Tyke. Why is it you are on a DRFC forum discussing politics? Nobody intelligent enough to debate with ont tarns site? :chair: :chair: :chair: :) :) :)
Or I'm a thick tw@t and feel more at home on here perhaps .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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I agree about the timescale Tyke, but it has bigger all to do with globalisation. It's got everything to do with how countries divvy up the proceeds of growth. Both the UK and USA used to be far more equal in the way that income was split between the richest and poorest. What has happened since Thatcher and Reagan is that the wealthiest have been cut loose from societal obligations. They now take a far higher percentage of national wealth. And THAT is the reason the old working class is angry.
Blaming it on globalisation falls into Farage and Trump's trap. Taking that anger and blaming it on them foreign bastsrds who have taken your job.
That is not the real enemy. And I'm surprised at you, as a socialist, for not seeing where the real problem is.
I repeat , the left from my background told you how it would play out in the 1970's .
In the 1970's things were far more equal and trade unions were responsible for that but even from that position they knew what was coming .
My hat isn't hung on the same peg as Farage or Trump as you well know and I'm no socialist either as I believe in a mixed economy .
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Just thinking Tyke. Why is it you are on a DRFC forum discussing politics? Nobody intelligent enough to debate with ont tarns site? :chair: :chair: :chair: :) :) :)
Or I'm a thick tw@t and feel more at home on here perhaps .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
touche
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I agree about the timescale Tyke, but it has bigger all to do with globalisation. It's got everything to do with how countries divvy up the proceeds of growth. Both the UK and USA used to be far more equal in the way that income was split between the richest and poorest. What has happened since Thatcher and Reagan is that the wealthiest have been cut loose from societal obligations. They now take a far higher percentage of national wealth. And THAT is the reason the old working class is angry.
Blaming it on globalisation falls into Farage and Trump's trap. Taking that anger and blaming it on them foreign bastsrds who have taken your job.
That is not the real enemy. And I'm surprised at you, as a socialist, for not seeing where the real problem is.
Can I just ask how you would define "the wealthiest" please?
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One of the changes i see and it has been discussed before is the abandonment of respect for convention, if it ain't nailed and lashed down it's torn up and used to strengthen the hold on power and then in turn that increased/broadened position is used to pour money and resourses directly into sandbagging seats or pockets of donors.
In the US trump poured money into propping up farmers with massive subsidies which Biden will find difficult to remove, in Britain the you can see money has gone to marginal seats and pouring into to donors pockets via lucrative contracts and in Australia there are what are called the sports rorts and similar programs have poured hundred of million of dollars into marginal seats.
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Trump may not be around in four years time to stand again for the top job.
He is no spring chicken.
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He'll only be as old as Biden is now hound, but personally I think he will have moved on helped by a GOP that says thanks but no thanks not again and of course he will have a few personal issues to think about. All those clingons that wanted to be part of his 'success' will melt into the background on his way down, even Pence doesn't want to stand next to him already.
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Yep he may well be SR but as we know, not everyone has the same lifespan.
Losing this election will have a profound effect on him.
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So one half of the US rejoices because they've elected a President who isn't Donald Trump .
Fair play that had to be done and so I'm asking myself now what ? .
My problem is this , 70 million of the US electorate were quite happy with Trump after 4 years in office .
I could conceivably say Starmer wins in 2024 in the UK and defeats Johnson and ask the the same so now what question .......... because your not Boris Johnson ? .
What fecking good is that when in reality nothing much changes for far too many working class people other than we elect someone who acts more credible than the person he defeats .
Be honest for one minute and at least do me the favour of acknowledging that the Democrats and Labour can only be elected just as long as nowt changes too much and the wealth gap ain't getting reduced anytime soon .
You can't really tackle the fundamental issue though can you when to get elected you have to trash the US industrial heartlands and in the UK feck the unions off .
If I ain't exactly dancing on Trumps grave I have good reasons .
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So one half of the US rejoices because they've elected a President who isn't Donald Trump .
Fair play that had to be done and so I'm asking myself now what ? .
My problem is this , 70 million of the US electorate were quite happy with Trump after 4 years in office .
I could conceivably say Starmer wins in 2024 in the UK and defeats Johnson and ask the the same so now what question .......... because your not Boris Johnson ? .
What fecking good is that when in reality nothing much changes for far too many working class people other than we elect someone who acts more credible than the person he defeats .
Be honest for one minute and at least do me the favour of acknowledging that the Democrats and Labour can only be elected just as long as nowt changes too much and the wealth gap ain't getting reduced anytime soon .
You can't really tackle the fundamental issue though can you when to get elected you have to trash the US industrial heartlands and in the UK feck the unions off .
If I ain't exactly dancing on Trumps grave I have good reasons .
The difference is, Tyke, one is a politician quite probably out of his depth. The other is a narcissistic lunatic with the power to destroy us all.
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So one half of the US rejoices because they've elected a President who isn't Donald Trump .
Fair play that had to be done and so I'm asking myself now what ? .
My problem is this , 70 million of the US electorate were quite happy with Trump after 4 years in office .
I could conceivably say Starmer wins in 2024 in the UK and defeats Johnson and ask the the same so now what question .......... because your not Boris Johnson ? .
What fecking good is that when in reality nothing much changes for far too many working class people other than we elect someone who acts more credible than the person he defeats .
Be honest for one minute and at least do me the favour of acknowledging that the Democrats and Labour can only be elected just as long as nowt changes too much and the wealth gap ain't getting reduced anytime soon .
You can't really tackle the fundamental issue though can you when to get elected you have to trash the US industrial heartlands and in the UK feck the unions off .
If I ain't exactly dancing on Trumps grave I have good reasons .
The difference is, Tyke, one is a politician quite probably out of his depth. The other is a narcissistic lunatic with the power to destroy us all.
My point was Belton with all due respect is that we ourselves having ended up with a PM in the UK who is out of his depth and a narcissistic lunatic in the US because the alternatives can't offer too much for the working class here and over the pond or otherwise they won't be elected either .
The fecking bandwidth here is a c@ck hair mate .
What really boils my pyss is that Clinton trashed the US industrial heartlands Thatcher style and Republican Trump cashed in .
Fecking Labour got in to bed with the finance industry and the Tories cashed in and Labour haven't had a sniff since .
With the best will in the world I wish the working class wouldn't turn right for the answers and I accept Billy does make some credible points in that respect even though in my opinion he hugely under plays the extent of globalisation .
There's a reason the traditional left are trashed so much by the establishment , politicians and their minions in the media and even by the Labour Party and it's because they can see what's getting played out here and it terrifies them they'd ever catch a strong wind .
Scargill was many things , far from perfect so what's Johnson then ? ..... do you believe they'll ever come after him with the same intensity even though he's trashing the country far more ? .
Honest answer please .
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Tyke.
That "there's no difference between them so what's the point?" line is thoroughly depressing. Because it's wrong.
We had it from the Left when enough of them refused to vote for Brown in 2010 to let in Cameron and Osborne. That resulted in a decade of big increases in NHS and school funding being stopped overnight. It resulted in huge cuts to in-work benefits. It resulted in the Austerity policies that brought the recovery from the 08/09 recession to a shuddering halt, and gave us the worst decade for pay increases since the Napoleonic Wars.
Its sounds like a very safe thing to say, but it's intellectually idle. And wrong. It comes from the Left not getting exactly what it wants and therefore rejecting everything.
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Tyke.
That "there's no difference between them so what's the point?" line is thoroughly depressing. Because it's wrong.
We had it from the Left when enough of them refused to vote for Brown in 2010 to let in Cameron and Osborne. That resulted in a decade of big increases in NHS and school funding being stopped overnight. It resulted in huge cuts to in-work benefits. It resulted in the Austerity policies that brought the recovery from the 08/09 recession to a shuddering halt, and gave us the worst decade for pay increases since the Napoleonic Wars.
Its sounds like a very safe thing to say, but it's intellectually idle. And wrong. It comes from the Left not getting exactly what it wants and therefore rejecting everything.
Ever thought Billy that everything does need rejecting given where we are now ?
It's hardly a safe thing to say by the way seen as the left is the devil himself in many quarters based on a cold winter in 1978/79 by the way .
If the left own the winter of discontent then what's this we have now ? .
The centre , liberal left and the right have done so much better right ? .
I suspect we may vote the same way Billy but we come from different backgrounds and experiences .
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Billy our only hope is that the right lurches to the same conclusion in the UK because socialist values are rare in 21st century. It does not work here unless extreme circumstances exist.
We actually need two party politics, the left leaning Liberals need to join Labour. The ukip brexit party + right leaning Liberals need to back conservatives.
We've seen the middle ground muddled by lib dems, social Democrats, sdp for too long. I hope /believe we are a socially leaning country that is mainly not heard because of the lost middle ground. It wasn't so apparent when we voted out of loyalty in the late 80s and 90s but all of a sudden we wonder where it all went wrong?
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Tyke.
Try rejecting everything and proposing a revolutionary change to society.
You'll never win an election.
There's a reason why Labour ended up with Blair. (And for the record, I left the Labour party when Blair was leader because I thought he was way too far to the right than was necessary.)
They got Blair because they had been seared by the rejection of being further to the Left.
As for coming from different backgrounds, depends how far back you go. Both my grandads worked down the pit. I spent every afternoon after school at my grandparents' hovel of a pit house with no hot water, an outside lav with torn up Daily Mirror to wipe your arse on, no bath and no fridge.
And every Sunday at my other granddad's who was an NUM branch official and Labour councillor.
I was lucky that the educational opportunities that the Wilson Labour Govts put in place gave me a path out of the road to the pit. But that's still where my heart and soul are.
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Auckley.
You're preaching to the converted. The Right and Centre-Right have not won a majority of the vote in the UK in the past 50 years. But we've had 32 years of Right wing Governments in that time. Because the Tories have had the discipline to stay together and United in one party. While the Left and Centre-Left has been split among half a dozen.
That's the core of my argument with Tyke. There's nothing to be gained by the sort of approach that he wants, because only 20% of the population supports it. The Left has to realise that it never wins power without being a very broad coalition that includes young, internationalist, metropolitan graduates as well as old left wingers from the post Industrial North. Both those sides need to realise that the others are fundamentally on their side. Not an enemy to be defeated. If they fight against each other, the Right wins every time.
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Here's the play.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1324855496722026498
Remember that several Republican controlled states, including Pennsylvania and Georgia, chose to ban counting of mail-in ballots until the on-the-day votes were counted.
Precisely so Trump can now treat his supporters as thick-as-mince idiots, by telling them "I won on the day, then these votes came in AFTER the election."
Just as some of us were predicting weeks ago. It's playing out in front of your eyes. The attempted coup.
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Lock him up
Lock him up
Lock him up
repeat ad infinitum lol :evil:
Sorry - a bit giddy - off Pike fishing with a mate.
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Problem is some of you guys are so hung up on class.
What or who are the working class in Britain today? In this area for example the pits have long gone. The landscape has changed both literally and in reality.
The younger generations don’t see themselves as working class in the same way people who are now in their 50’s 60’s 70’s & 80’s saw themselves 30 years ago.
Socialism doesn’t have the same appeal. What are the Labour Party offering the younger generations. Where is the appeal to them in voting Labour?
A huge percentage of the under 50’s feel totally disenfranchised by all the political parties. They don’t feel they are being represented.
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Last night, Trump re-Tweeted this article.
https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/995773?section=josepheschmitz&keywords=electoral-count&year=2020&month=11&date=06&id=995773&oref=t.co
If you can't pick holes a mile wide in its logic, you're really not safe to be left on your own with electric things, nevermind be Leader of the Free World.
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I assumed this was from a spoof account. But no. It's genuine. So no sign of Trump getting his big boy pants on any time soon then.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325099845045071873
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273. As far as I'm concerned that's it. I congratulate Joe Biden and the Democrats, because they've won a democratic election fairly and squarely, and I just don't do sore losers.
I'll contact my mate Jimmydee from the Rovers foodbank to donate my ?50 losing bet money ASAP.
That's fifty pounds. What's up with this bloody site.
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I'll match that SS.
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Now is when it gets scary. Never in a million years is Trump going to accept that he has lost. At the very best, he will be forced out but keep screaming from the sidelines that he is the rightful President. And keep the anger going in his base.
At worst, the SC, packed with far right appointees, supports him. Then it truly is Civil War territory.
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I'll match that SS.
Cheers BST. It's important to be magnanimous in victory as well as in defeat.
I hope you take me to my word when I say I'd have done exactly the same if Trump had have won.
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Problem is some of you guys are so hung up on class.
What or who are the working class in Britain today? In this area for example the pits have long gone. The landscape has changed both literally and in reality.
The younger generations don?t see themselves as working class in the same way people who are now in their 50?s 60?s 70?s & 80?s saw themselves 30 years ago.
Socialism doesn?t have the same appeal. What are the Labour Party offering the younger generations. Where is the appeal to them in voting Labour?
A huge percentage of the under 50?s feel totally disenfranchised by all the political parties. They don?t feel they are being represented.
You have to be hung up on class Campsall because nowt much has changed in my opinion .
OK it isn't the top hats v the flat caps anymore but it's there alright .
Austerity was all about class and the Tories still elect the old Eton and Oxford University brigade to be leader .
Nowt wrong with the working class label , be proud of it , I always have .
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I'll match that SS.
Cheers BST. It's important to be magnanimous in victory as well as in defeat.
I hope you take me to my word when I say I'd have done exactly the same if Trump had have won.
Never doubted it SS.
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https://youtu.be/Z0hEFa52Bdo
Good grief. How is Giuliani a lawyer?
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Actually, after not liking the look of him a few months ago, I'm starting to warm a bit towards Joe Biden. He has a real calmness about him that's quite refreshing.
After the terrible tragedies he's suffered in his life, I wish him luck now.
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https://youtu.be/Z0hEFa52Bdo
Good grief. How is Giuliani a lawyer?
He's a self serving conniving shit - who will follow the trough wherever it takes him. Apparently he's in some rather excruciating scenes in the new Borat sequel.......
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https://youtu.be/Z0hEFa52Bdo
Good grief. How is Giuliani a lawyer?
He's a self serving conniving shit - who will follow the trough wherever it takes him. Apparently he's in some rather excruciating scenes in the new Borat sequel.......
He's having an interview with Borat's daughter in her (or perhaps his, but anyway) hotel suite, and he agrees to go into the bedroom for a drink and appears to begin to undress himself on the bed. Only, the character is 15... and I think he knew her supposed age too.
He reckons he was taking his microphone gear out his trousers... :laugh:
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As Seth Abramson says, regardless of whether he actually WAS fiddling with himself, the very act of being left in a potentially compromising position with a young, foreign woman was a horrific error of judgement from someone so close to the President. Given that Giuliani has regularly done business in Russia with leading members of the gangster elite, it is inconceivable that he hasn't been set up by the Russian secret services at some point, if his judgement is so bad.
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What a t**t!
https://twitter.com/kasia_skynews/status/1325165019378688005?s=21
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Now is when it gets scary. Never in a million years is Trump going to accept that he has lost. At the very best, he will be forced out but keep screaming from the sidelines that he is the rightful President. And keep the anger going in his base.
At worst, the SC, packed with far right appointees, supports him. Then it truly is Civil War territory.
They need to present credible evidence rather than unsubstantiated allegations.. there is no sign of that is there.?
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Fascinating insight into the schism in America here. Hit the "Size of Lead" tab under the map.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-president.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-elections-2020®ion=TOP_BANNER&context=storyline_menu_recirc
As far as i can see, Trump has won only 1 county in the entire country by more than 100,000 votes. Biden has won dozens by more than that. Counties vary in size from a couple of hundred voters in the desert areas to several million in the counties covering the big cities, like LA, Chicago, Philadelphia etc, with a few hundred thousand voters in dozens of counties covering mid-size cities.
So what this means is that Trump hasn't won large victories in any large metro areas, and only in a slack handful of smaller urban areas (counties covering the suburbs of Salt Lake City, Houston etc). His vote has come from winning big in the rural areas, or winning small in suburban areas.
It's fascinating to look at the detail. Take Kentucky which is about as solid a Republican state as you can find. The overall state voted 2:1 for Trump. But in the counties covering the two big cities, Lexington and Louisville, the vote went 60:40 to Biden.
That seems to me to be a massively unhealthy rift in American society. And it is hard to see how you go about healing it.
So I had a look at the relationship between rural states and Trump support in the last election. Other than a couple of outliers (Maine and Vermont, which are rural but traditionally New England liberal-leaning states) the correlation is stunning. And since America is getting progressively more urbanised, this suggests that, over the long term, Trumpist politics doesn't really have a future, for all the bleakness it has brought recently.
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This is...err...revealing of Raab's opinions.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1325138242249895937
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Problem is some of you guys are so hung up on class.
What or who are the working class in Britain today. In this area for example the pits have long gone. The landscape has changed both literally and in reality.
The younger generations don’t see themselves as working class in the same way people who are now in their 50?s 60?s 70?s & 80?s saw themselves 30 years ago.
Socialism doesn?t have the same appeal. What are the Labour Party offering the younger generations. Where is the appeal to them in voting Labour?
A huge percentage of the under 50’s feel totally disenfranchised by all the political parties. They don?t feel they are being represented.
You have to be hung up on class Campsall because nowt much has changed in my opinion .
OK it isn't the top hats v the flat caps anymore but it's there alright .
Austerity was all about class and the Tories still elect the old Eton and Oxford University brigade to be leader .
Nowt wrong with the working class label , be proud of it , I always have .
Sorry Tyke I just don’t like this class tag. We are all one aren’t we as Biden has just said in his speech tonight.
It’s an outdated concept. While you have this “I am working class mantra“ then you are suggesting you are different to people that are so called “middle class”
Tyke you are not different. We are all the same. We are all citizens of the Uk. We are all members of the human race. We are all equal. Equality will only come when that attitude prevails.
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Anyway back to the OP
Thank heavens Biden has won. Let’s just hope Trump gets the right advice and for once in his life listens to that advice and leave his post with some semblance of dignity.
If he has to be removed kicking and screaming like a spoilt child then what does it say about the man and what he represents.
This is a huge night for America & more importantly for the whole world.
Maybe the denial of the Covid virus and the denial of climate change can be addressed by a country that has only been thinking inwardly for the last 4 years and been putting 2 fingers up to the rest of the world.
4 more years of Trump and we would all be in desperate trouble.
I like Kamala Harris and maybe she is a future US president. Now that would be something very special for equality of gender & race.
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https://youtu.be/Z0hEFa52Bdo (https://youtu.be/Z0hEFa52Bdo)
Good grief. How is Giuliani a lawyer?
He's a self serving conniving shit - who will follow the trough wherever it takes him. Apparently he's in some rather excruciating scenes in the new Borat sequel.......
He is one horrible little man. I was going to reply something but saw you had beaten me to it and nailed it !
If they want a Spiiting image of him I suggest they borrow the real thing.
I think I will name my next Beer after him Gu-ale-arni - and can get a Pint of Bitter every time I fancy reminding myself of his outpourings.
Gripe water would be another good un
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Actually, after not liking the look of him a few months ago, I'm starting to warm a bit towards Joe Biden. He has a real calmness about him that's quite refreshing.
After the terrible tragedies he's suffered in his life, I wish him luck now.
For me he got elected by playing safe, not saying much and just offering an alternative to Trump. The election was all about Trump.
Now they have a 77 yo in power, without much of an agenda. Maybe that's OK in these Covid times, perhaps someone who can focus on dealing with the crisis is what's needed.
If he can stay alive until 81, stabilise the economy and avoid going into another war then that might be enough to see another democrat in power next time to build on it.
For me though he's an unispiring candidate who so far hasn't offered much of a vision.
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Actually, after not liking the look of him a few months ago, I'm starting to warm a bit towards Joe Biden. He has a real calmness about him that's quite refreshing.
After the terrible tragedies he's suffered in his life, I wish him luck now.
For me he got elected by playing safe, not saying much and just offering an alternative to Trump. The election was all about Trump.
Now they have a 77 yo in power, without much of an agenda. Maybe that's OK in these Covid times, perhaps someone who can focus on dealing with the crisis is what's needed.
If he can stay alive until 81, stabilise the economy and avoid going into another war then that might be enough to see another democrat in power next time to build on it.
For me though he's an unispiring candidate who so far hasn't offered much of a vision.
Pretty much where Starmer and Labour are Don and I totally agree with you about Biden .
Great change seems impossible these days to the left of Trump and Johnson .
Greater distribution of wealth on the ticket and you lose .
I'm at a loss as to how we elect a socially democratic leader in this day and age .
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If Biden gets through most of this it will be good
''Joe Biden: Where does he stand on key issues?''
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53575474
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Now THIS is the way you deal with sweeping the dregs of Trumpism into the dustbin.
https://mobile.twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1325154115173879814
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When we get to the bottom of what enabled Trumpism to nearly destroy American democracy, Facebook will be right in the headlights for amplifying and turbocharging Trumpist batshit propaganda.
This was the list of top ten Facebook links a week before the election.
https://mobile.twitter.com/FacebooksTop10/status/1321455057439633408
This was it two months before.
https://mobile.twitter.com/FacebooksTop10/status/1302656401366421505
This was it a year ago.
Fox News
Breitbart
David J Harris Jr
Ben Shapiro
Dan Bongino
That is the checklist of Trumpist lying propaganda sources. Poured into people's FB feed through Zuckerberg's algorithms. With zero oversight.
Truly horrific.
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I stayed up to hear Biden's speech last night. As someone has said, there wasn't a lot of policy detail but then this election has all been about style of leadership rather than policies.
How refreshing it was to hear a speech that was properly coherent and not what appeared to be a stream-of-consciousness ramble such as we've had for the past four years.
I'm now looking forward to Trump being asked where the Covid vaccines he promised within weeks are when they don't materialise...he'll still be in the White House then and I bet the journalists will be off the leash now the election has emasculated him and his threats. Especially the Fox News ones, they'll be falling over themselves to pin the election loss on Trump personally and not the Republican Party.
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.... as well as the (quote) CNN b******s
What a terrible thing for a President to say ON the record
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Speculation from over the pond is that he may set up his own TV network, 70m subscribers? He could be a thorn in the side of Biden for the next 4 years if did decode to have hos own network and then watch out in 4 years at the nect election. What might be even worse is that he wants his daughter to run at some point
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He'll need serious money to do that. He'll have to fight Murdoch for batshit far right audience. And he's got ?0.5bn of debt to pay back in the next couple of years.
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Now everybody knows he welshes on every debt he can, who is going to be stupid enough to give him millions of dollars to do anything in future? He's already maxed out in the US and the rest of the world is now on notice after he shafted Deutscher Bank for millions.
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Speculation from over the pond is that he may set up his own TV network, 70m subscribers? He could be a thorn in the side of Biden for the next 4 years if did decode to have hos own network and then watch out in 4 years at the nect election. What might be even worse is that he wants his daughter to run at some point
If I were his daughter I would have run a long time ago :aok:
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I'm still not sure on Biden, but his most recent speaches have been very sensible. It's quite interesting to see comments that he may not get along with our government but I'm not so sure. Policy wise they are not that far apart (arguably democrats are closer to our Tories than labour).
One thing that strikes me on him reading his history is one common sentence. Biden later admitted this to be a mistake. That came up a number of times. Is his judgement right? Hard to tell. He's certainly done a few suspect things.
But, he can't be any worse than trump can he?
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Biden admitting a mistake is something that Trump has probably never done in his life so that's an improvement.
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Raab again yesterday.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1325368078331416577
Just, beyond words.
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beyond words bst but plenty, reams of words but not the 'yes' word
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It's times like these that you choose which side of history you are on.
Here's Steve Hilton making his choice.
Hilton, for those who don't know him, was Cameron's Cummings. He was the one who developed the image of Cameron as the one who was detoxifying the Tories. Pivoting them away from being the "Nasty Party."
He's been reinventing himself in the States these past few years as a far-right video shock jock for Trumpists.
I wonder what he ACTUALLY believed? It if he just bends whichever way the right wing wind is blowing.
EDIT: It would probably help if I actually posted the link.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325658142592667648
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Count up the number of ways in that video that that t**t Hilton deliberately misinforms people.
Here's three massive ones.
1) Saying because Democrats have complained about Trump, that justifies Trump not conceding now. But Clinton conceded the moment it was clear that she had lost the vote in 2016.
2) Saying that because Clinton advised Biden to "not concede under any circumstances" that the Democracts are hypocrites for complaining about Trump nor conceding. But when she said that, she was clearly talking about on the night of the elections, because, as she predicted, Republican states would introduce measures to slow down the counting of absentee ballots. She said that Biden should hold on until all votes were counted. Not that he should hold on after it was clear he had lost.
3) Saying that Trump got the biggest share of Black votes of any Republican candidate for 60 years. But that was from exit poll data. And we know that more people voted by mail or pre-election day that voted on the day. And we know that the absentee votes came massively more from Democrats that Republicans. And we know that Black Americans are massively more supportive of the Democrats than the Republicans.
I just cannot get my head round how t**ts like Hilton look at themselves in the mirror every morning and don't see an evil, lying would-be destroyer of democracy looking back at them. People like him are a cancer in our society. Deliberately choosing to lie to people who are desperate to hear the lies.
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.... and now Trump says on Twitter of course :
Since when does the Lamestream Media call who our next president will be? We have all learned a lot in the last two weeks!
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Looks like the next step in far right social media disinformation is coming. Now that Twitter has started flagging their lies, there seems to be a stampede if them moving to Parler. I guess we're going to be dealing with them peddling their bullshit for a long time yet. Does make you wonder if democracy is strong enough to survive this.
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Well this is interesting.
https://mobile.twitter.com/cspan/status/1326230270421426183
US Secretary of State. Effectively saying he's disregarding their election result.
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And here's one of the leading Republican Senators. Just listen to this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewFeinberg/status/1325991007876509696
Imagine a developing country where a leader clearly and unequivocally loses an election. And refused to accept it. And his party grandees go all in on the election being stolen.
What would we call that?
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these super efficient water cooled brains in the trump camp couldn't predict that each state that went blue worked out a way to cheat and prevent it from happenening?
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Funny int it? There was only cheating in states where Trump lost narrowly. But the Democrats weren't sharp enough to cheat to win the Senate.
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Nowt worse than bloody whinging losers who can't accept the fact they lost and in an act of desperation accuse the winners of cheating.
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Too right BB, I heard Nigel Farage complaining about the Democrats cheating on the Jeremy Vine show.
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I just hope and pray that that sort of embarrassing behaviour doesn't spread across The Pond to here.
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The Republicans will have another chance to address their defeat at the ballot box in four years time.
Remind me what point you are making BB?
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I thought my point was perfectly straight and to the point BST.
Here's the reminder you requested...
"Nowt worse than bloody whinging losers who can't accept the fact they lost and in an act of desperation accuse the winners of cheating".
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Just get it over with and have a quick bum you two.
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Choose your politicians.
I profoundly disagree with Merkel on policy issues. But in the current climate, THIS is what we want from serious politicians on the very biggest picture. A focus on what really matters and binds us together. Not the lazy f**king stupidity of the divisive culture war.
https://mobile.twitter.com/marceldirsus/status/1325822934502543360
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Absolutely nailed in this article .
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/11/us-trump-biden-president-elect
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Yes thanks Tyke, I'm under no illusions of what Binden can or wants to achieve I just think it will be better than trump but who for I'm not sure or by how much. He didn't promise a lot so the bar isn't high to start with. I wonder how many millions and more will be poured into the reruns in Georgia. Control of the senate of course is pivotal to real change but has Biden got the metal to do it, is someone that wants to build bridges right for a position that really needs a headkicker. I live in hope.
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We can all see that BB is having a pop - unnecessarily - at people who voted remain for brexit.
As far as I know, no one is saying the vote itself was rigged, or a fraud, or that Leave cheated.
There is plenty of argument that the Leave side peddled lies and did not define what leave meant before the vote. But that is not saying the actual vote was in doubt - unlike Trump and his cronies
BB is clearly stirring for the sake of it, which falls into the WUM bounds.
BB - there is no need for you to do this, no need at all. Disagree by all means, but your deliberate WUM action is unwelcome.
Yes I know others on here can post inflammatory posts, but can you not give it a rest.?
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Well THIS is...err...interesting.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rabrowne75/status/1326284851268489217
Trump has cleared out all the top brass at the Department of Defense who refused to send troops into cities where disturbances were going in this summer.
It's likely to be the man-child having a tantrum and lashing out at people who have stood up to him.
But.
If you were in his shoes and you were seriously considering refusing to stand-down, you would make damn sure you removed any obstacles from the top of the DoD, and replaced them with your own picks.
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It shouldn't really matter. At the end of the day, come January 20th he isn't their Commander-In-Chief any more.
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Glyn.
There are MANY scenarios where it is not as simple as that.
Here's one obvious one:
Trump takes legal action to get votes overturned. There is no hard and fast evidence of fraud, but he pitches his case on nuanced technicalities. In particular, the claim that the late changes to how absentee ballots were dealt with in Pennsylvania. It goes to the Supreme Court. There's a split decision, with his three nominees and two other conservative justices voting to support having the Pennsylvania vote annulled. But one of the other right wing justices sides with the three remaining more liberal justices, and the four of them go public, saying this is a constitutional outrage. In that scenario, the election is in legal limbo. It looks like a peaceful coup has been enacted. But as we approach 20 January, nothing is certain. Guaranteed to be massive social unrest in that scenario, and it is far from a fanciful one. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it is quite a likely one.
Another scenario is that states with Republican local Govt, but who voted for Biden, take the unilateral decision that they disagree with the result of their state's presidential vote (cos...reasons) and refuse to mandate their Electoral College voters to support Biden. That is a legal and constitutional quagmire, and wold again be seen by the Democrats as an attempted coup. Senator Lindsay Graham of South Carolina repeatedly refused to rule this out as a strategy for the Republicans when interviewed at the weekend.
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Surely though they would have to get more than Pa annulled ? That would still have Biden on 270 but with Az and Ga (where he leads by 5 million votes) he is still over the line unless Trump can stir up some irregularities in those States too
Secondly if he got Pa annulled he would not get it either surely and would still be stuck on 214 ? If he did then Biden would launch a counter Suit I suppose but who knows
The nightmare scenario predicted by many is here - and it depends I suppose if the Republican heirarchy tell Trump we want you out and whether he would listen (though I suspect I know that he would not).
What a mess all round
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Surely though they would have to get more than Pa annulled ? That would still have Biden on 270 but with Az and Ga (where he leads by 5 million votes) he is still over the line unless Trump can stir up some irregularities in those States too
Secondly if he got Pa annulled he would not get it either surely and would still be stuck on 214 ? If he did then Biden would launch a counter Suit I suppose but who knows
The nightmare scenario predicted by many is here - and it depends I suppose if the Republican heirarchy tell Trump we want you out and whether he would listen (though I suspect I know that he would not).
What a mess all round
But isn't that always the case where you have a dictator in charge?
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We can all see that BB is having a pop - unnecessarily - at people who voted remain for brexit.
I voted Remain!
As far as I know, no one is saying the vote itself was rigged, or a fraud, or that Leave cheated.
There were claims of all three of those!
There is plenty of argument that the Leave side peddled lies and did not define what leave meant before the vote. But that is not saying the actual vote was in doubt - unlike Trump and his cronies
There were demands for a revote!
BB is clearly stirring for the sake of it, which falls into the WUM bounds.
Some comments wind me up. That doesn't mean they are WUM's.
BB - there is no need for you to do this, no need at all. Disagree by all means, but your deliberate WUM action is unwelcome.
Are you speaking for yourself or representing a clique?
Yes I know others on here can post inflammatory posts, but can you not give it a rest.?
I can't make others who post inflammatory posts give it a rest.
IDM - You've wound yourself up.
IDM - You're the one who mentioned a connection between the US and the Brexit vote regarding the way both sets of losers moaned about the result, not me.
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Sorry BB but the inference in your post was clear.
If you weren’t on a wind up, why post it at all.?
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IDM, my post merely suggested that there was nowt worse than bloody whinging losers who can't accept the fact they lost and in an act of desperation accuse the winners of cheating. I stand by that. If you're wound up by that comment that is your prerogative.
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We can all see that BB is having a pop - unnecessarily - at people who voted remain for brexit.
I voted Remain! We’re talking about things happening after the vote.. I was generalising
As far as I know, no one is saying the vote itself was rigged, or a fraud, or that Leave cheated.
There were claims of all three of those! Were there.? Plenty of issues surrounding the campaign but where are the allegations of fraud in the vote counting.?
There is plenty of argument that the Leave side peddled lies and did not define what leave meant before the vote. But that is not saying the actual vote was in doubt - unlike Trump and his cronies
There were demands for a revote! There were demands for a second referendum, but based on unresolved issues not the actual vote count.. you can see the difference can’t you.?
BB is clearly stirring for the sake of it, which falls into the WUM bounds.
Some comments wind me up. That doesn't mean they are WUM's. Your comment was deliberate to stir.
BB - there is no need for you to do this, no need at all. Disagree by all means, but your deliberate WUM action is unwelcome.
Are you speaking for yourself or representing a clique? I only ever speak for myself, you know that.
Yes I know others on here can post inflammatory posts, but can you not give it a rest.?
I can't make others who post inflammatory posts give it a rest. Irrelevant to this point.
IDM - You've wound yourself up. Nope.
IDM - You're the one who mentioned a connection between the US and the Brexit vote regarding the way both sets of losers moaned about the result, not me. You inferred it, if not, what other vote where you referring to.?
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IDM, my post merely suggested that there was nowt worse than bloody whinging losers who can't accept the fact they lost and in an act of desperation accuse the winners of cheating. I stand by that. If you're wound up by that comment that is your prerogative.
And my point was that there weren’t accusations of cheating in the actual vote for brexit - and it was you that created the inference. If that wasn’t to stir things up, then I don’t know why you posted it at all.
That was why I replied. I’m not wound up - if you drop a pebble in a pond the ripples soon stop.
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False equivalence.
No one. Not one single person ever suggested that votes were cast illegally or counted incorrectly in the 2016 Referendum.
So any attempt to draw a false equivalent between the criticisms of the 2016 process (which were based on clear and unarguable evidence of people being deliberately misled, on a vote which had no means of redress) and the US election (where the claims - without evidence- are of illegality of and whatever happens, there will be another vote in 4 years time) are just so much ba-baa.
There's no equivalence on the type of vote.
There's no equivalence on the substance of the complaint.
There's no equivalence on the evidence offered.
There's no equivalence on the democratic means of redress.
Disappointing that needs spelling out to be honest. But not surprising.
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No one. Not one single person ever suggested that votes were cast illegally or counted incorrectly in the 2016 Referendum.
Including me! what's that got to do with the price of fish?
So any attempt to draw a false equivalent between the criticisms of the 2016 process (which were based on clear and unarguable evidence of people being deliberately misled, on a vote which had no means of redress) and the US election (where the claims - without evidence- are of illegality of and whatever happens, there will be another vote in 4 years time) are just so much ba-baa.
Who attempted to draw a false equivalent? As far as I'm concerned the only similarity with IDM's comparison between the US election and the EU referendum is that both sets of losers were whingers who accused the winners of cheating.
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Ffs BB it was YOU who implied the comparison, I just pointed it out..
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IDM. I DID NOT IMPLY A COMPARISON WITH THE EU REFERENDUM. YOU DID!
I was actually inferring the 2019 UK General election!
Mind you, I see your point and on reflection, either case would have done.
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Who the hell suggested any fraudulent voting in the 2019 election.?
Whilst I can’t read minds it is fairly clear you did originally mean brexit. You don’t like being called out about it and so you’re trying to dig yourself out of a hole of your own making.
Apart from that Dachshund voting multiple times in Dunny on the Wold, where has there been a substantiated allegation of election fraud in the uk.?
The point is about fraud, not about the issues being voted on.
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IDM, I've never been able to stop you from being wrong in the past and It's no surprise I can't now. There WERE accusations of fraud both in the 2019 UK election AND in the 2016 EU referendum.
If you don't believe me, type "Fraud accusations in the 2019 UK election" and "Fraud accusations in the 2016 EU Referendum."
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Why should I research something you claim.? You can provide evidence if you want.
As for being right or wrong, which of us never admits to being wrong.?
Big clue, it isn’t me.
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IDM, I will most certainly admit to being wrong, if the situation ever arises.
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Isn't a more realistic scenario that Trump will go without wishing Biden well? I just can't see him taking an option that amounts to a removal of democratic processes. More likely he'll keep up his narrative and go albeit grudgingly.
BST is right though, he could use republican power to shore him up if he chose, but that's suicide for the republican part and they won't do it.
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Apolgies for distracting away from BB trying his best to wind people up about nothing, but back on subject, don't forget that this election was a State wide election - and not a federal run one. They are United States for a reason.
Therefore in order for Trump to take any complaint to the Supreme Court he would need to prove fraud in any particular state - not that he doesn't like the rules in that particular state. That is a matter for the state legislation - not the SC as they have already said.
Unbelievably they are still counting votes and as of yesterday Biden's lead in the states that matter is:
Arizona: 14,746
Georgia: 12,567
Nevada: 36,274
Pennsylvania: 47,483
Even if the courts do throw out a few ballots which came in late (and in PA these have been put to one side and not counted) are they really going to throw out that many?
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1326245845671481351
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BFYP
I'm not sure why that should be suicide for the Republican party. 71million people voted for Trump after his Govt had a deliberate policy of putting babies in concentration camps at the border. After Mueller made it as clear as he could that the reason he wasn't able to get indictments on Trump over his collusion with Russia was that several Trump associates preferred to go to jail than co-operate with the inquiry (that being the way that the Mafia operates of course). He's shown them he is a moral abomination and a crook and they still voted for the Republican party. Why wouldn't they if he overthrows a presidential election?
You've already got people like Lindsey Graham paving the way, saying on Monday "The Republican party wins elections by winning the intellectual argument. The Democratic party wins elections by stealing them." he won his Senatorial election by 60-40, despite being a lying, repugnant piece of shit.
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If you're wondering why Trump is starting lawsuits which everyone knows he won't win, he's started a Gofundme this week which he's calling his "election defence fund". Of course, this fund is actually being used to help pay off his mountain of debts. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/nov/10/donald-trump-election-fund-debt
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Wilts (from 3 above)
Yes thats what I was outlining in Reply #216 above on this Page - that they can take Pa off him (but it wont be Trumps) and they would need to then get an outcome in those 4 States you mentioned 2 of which Az and Ga I highlighted in my reply
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MM. Wouldn't be the first time that Trump has stolen money from innocent dupes.
https://www.npr.org/2019/11/07/777287610/judge-says-trump-must-pay-2-million-over-misuse-of-foundation-funds?t=1605115547039
He's some piece of work isn't he. Stealing cash from a Veterans' fundraiser to pay for his own ego trip. And STILL there are people who think the sun shines out of his orange arsehole.
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I still think there are will be a significant amount of republicans who voted for Trump simply because he’s the Republican candidate, despite his failings.
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So you think there should be an investigation into the allegation of fraud - even though you have no evidence that a fraud has been committed.
The ridiculousness of the allegations summed up in this interview:
https://twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1326198168091054080
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I still think there are will be a significant amount of republicans who voted for Trump simply because he’s the Republican candidate, despite his failings.
Isn’t that what happens in the UK as well.
People vote for their preferred Party despite who the leader is.
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Usually yes, but I reckon Corbyn alone lost Labour thousands and thousands of votes..
Millions of Americans will turn a blind eye to Trump’s behaviour in order to secure a Republican presidency.
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But by that reasoning wouldn’t it be fair to say that many thousands voted for Biden because of Trumps behaviour.
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They probably did, I certainly would have.!
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It's a daft comparison for two reasons.
1) In Britain, you cannot separate your vote for the Executive and the Legislature as you can in the States. If you want party X in power in the Legislature, by definition that means you have to accept the head of that party leading the Executive.
In America, you can vote for the leader of Party X to be the President, and the candidates of Party Y to be elected as Senators and Congressmen.
2) We've never had a Kitson like Trump as the leader of a UK party. Never in a million years would I vote Labour if a known criminal was the Labour leader.
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On a brighter note ..........
''Joe Biden’s lead in Pennsylvania has now surpassed 50,000, after the latest batch of ballots from Allegheny county were posted.
As of this afternoon, Biden leads Donald Trump in Pennsylvania by 50,483, or 0.7% of the total vote in the state.
That puts Biden’s lead well outside of automatic recount territory, given Pennsylvania automatically launches a recount when the winning candidate leads by 0.5% or less.
Biden’s lead is also now larger than Trump’s 2016 lead in Pennsylvania. Four years ago, Trump won the state by 44,292 votes''
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Just been watching some of the footage of the Trump legal action against the Michigan vote.
It is PROPER scary. They are saying that the whole vote should be thrown out because observers were forced to stand 20 feet back from the count so they couldn't see if votes were being processed correctly. And their case now is that, now that those votes have been processed, there is no way of knowing whether they were ever legal or not.
The Judge asked what evidence they had of observers being forced to stand 20 feet back.
Trump's lawyer then started blustering that "Ah, yeah, 20...I'm not gonna say 20...we have affidavits."
And then it hit me. That's the plan. Make it utterly unknowable what the truth is. Have a bunch of claims that cannot be substantiated, that observers were blocked from doing their job. And extrapolate from that that if observers were blocked from doing their job, someone might have been dishonest in allowing postal votes that shouldn't have counted. And extrapolate from that that it means that the entire Michigan election is invalid.
It's horseshit.
But.
If it ends up at a Supreme Court that has been packed with Trump nominees...
And even if it doesn't work, it will become the Trumpist myth for the next 50 years. "They stole the election from you and everyone knew it, but the judges and the Elite waved it through."
I think I've just seen how American democracy collapses. Either over the next month, or over the next 50 years. Because either Trump's coup works now. It a much smarter and more dangerous version rides the wave that this legal action is designed to produce, and sweeps to power in 2024 or 2036 or 2052.
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So their evidence is, the actual evidence can’t be seen - so they conclude their claims of fraud must be correct.?
That’s not evidence at all, surely it’s down to the people raising the complaint to provide proof.?
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IDM.
The approach is.
We make a claims that cannot be verified, that there was a deliberate policy of stopping observers getting close enough to observe.
Following on from that, we claim that,while observers were barred from observing, ineligible postal votes may have unfairly been included in the fai votes tally.
We have absolutely no evidence of the latter happening. But here's the point. YOU cannot prove it didn't happen.
So we have established our myth of the election being stolen. You cannot prove it wasn't. And we will feed that into angry, gullible brains for the next generation.
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But it’s still down to them to prove any wrongdoing did happen..
Or I assume that’s the approach the court system would take.? Otherwise people could accuse folks of all kinds of wrongdoings..
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It's not about winning at this stage IDM. It's about getting people riled up enough that they feel they need to give money to Donald Trump to "fight the system". And if some other people take it a few steps further and start fighting for real, well, that's too bad.
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Trump rally pre election and inside the mind of his support .
https://youtu.be/NzDhm808oU4
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Trump has dropped the majority of his legal claims in Pennsylvannia. Even if he wins the remaining ones they do not account to enough votes to overturn the result.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1328146112134467584
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THE most important comment of the year, or possibly any other year. From Barack Obama.
"If we do not have the capacity to distinguish what’s true from what’s false, then by definition the marketplace of ideas doesn’t work. And by definition our democracy doesn’t work. We are entering into an epistemological crisis."
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/why-obama-fears-for-our-democracy/617087/
There is literally nothing more important than countering the war of Objective Truth. If we lose that, we are finished.
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So. Here's the endgame. This is Trump's (latest) lawyer saying that after all their legal cases have been thrown out bu state courts, they are moving on to appeal to the Supreme Court.
The Supreme Court that Trump has packed with his own picks.
This is where American democracy hopefully shows its strength. Or things get very, very problematic over the next 10 days.
https://twitter.com/JennaEllisEsq/status/1332380180065738754
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The federal judge who made the statements that there was no proof submitted, in Trunp’s appeal against the PA result and the inital rejection of his lawsuit, was a Trump appointee..
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I hope in the end whenever that is, the USA decides to go with a simple "majority" to become President and abandon the Electoral College System.
Each vote cast would then have equal status and in this Election would have seen Biden winning with 6 Million plus votes more than Trump
Trump would have lost the last Election as well polling 2million 800 thousand less than Hillary Clinton
In the "stolen" Election of 2000 when it did got to Court over the "pregnant Chads" Gore was beaten by 300 off votes thrown out in Florida which got George W Bush inot The White House even though Gore polled half a Million more votes
Other Elections seem clearer cut - so Electoral College "lovers" would probably tell me to butt out "limey" what another Country's election got to do with you - and they may have a point
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It's to do with the power and influence of the individual states isn't it Wolfie. They literally have different laws in different states. Once you start taking that power away from them and giving it to a central body, who knows where it may lead.
I m not yet sure that the US is ready for more equality!
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True - each State is a law unto itself I suppose - I just think they could be more equivocal - but heigh ho Im not as bothered about that as I am in the strength of the Team we field tomorrow ;)
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America. 2020. Who would ever have expected that a public official would need to speak like this?
https://mobile.twitter.com/gpbnews/status/1333886597264240640
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Trump now destined to launch his 2024 Presidential campaign EXACTLY at the moment when Biden will be attending his inauguration
Maybe he cant stand to see the crowds attending that "do" as of course he had (he said) the LARGEST crowd ever for any Inauguration. He was seething when people produced photos that disproved that
He is (I am sorry Trump lovers and / or appeasers) just a complete spoiled kid. Roundly thrashed in the Polls and cant stand to lose - so he will take his ball home - challenge every result in every State - fire those who cant find a shred of evidence to keep his pretence of "cheating" alive - not concede at any point and FINALLY find an excuse NOT to do the honourable thing and attend the Inauguration of the next legitimate President
I dont know if this is unique in their history - but we will find out. Obviously some outgoing Presidents have been unable to attend for one reason or another but have any pulled the spoiled kid in tears act
For me that is what he looks like - and even more I cant see why 70 Million voters chose to follow him - and thank goodness (as I know it will rile Trump to death) Biden got Millions and Millions and Millions more votes winning the popular vote AND the Electoral College system votes
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So this was Rudi Giuliani, four days ago at a hearing into supposed election fraud in Michigan.
https://youtu.be/0X7WgjXBoUg
Today, the bell end is in hospital with COVID.
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Opinion poll in the USA this week.
Only 18% of Republicans accept the election of Biden.
Just 13% of Republicans think the conduct of the election was fair. 72% say it was unfair to Trump.
This is a frightening problem for the future. That's Trump's legacy. A huge proportion of Americans no longer believing in their own democracy.
https://t.co/MILppCFCGH?amp=1
Oh aye. And in the same poll, only 35% of Republicans say they will be vaccinated.
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Let the stupid sods catch Covid then. Natural selection at its finest.
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They finished counting and certifing the election today.
Biden won the popular vote by over 7 million votes or 52 - 48 %wise (where have I heard those figures before).
https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/1337505288660901889