Muslims

[IC1967]

After the terrorist attack in France I think it's time to say enough is enough. It's time for Muslims to come into the real world.

I appreciate that most Muslims condemn what has happened but they need to go one step further. They need to say they believe in free speech and will not get upset at the prophet having the piss taken out of him. Unfortunately 80% of Muslims think it should be a criminal offence if the piss is taken out of their religion. 

This is completely wrong. If you want to live in a country like ours you have to take the rough with the smooth. All religions should be open to scrutiny. It is my opinion that all religions are totally ridiculous and I should be allowed to say that. Islam is not a special case.

[auckleyflyer]

wow I agree with mick.! only that religion defies logic though.
its a personal thing but to me all religion is irrational! boils my piss that the pretend left pegger's get the best schooling! we've had faith schools for generations in the UK yet go mad at muslim based in a school environment? I cant remember us protesting outside Mc'aulies when the IRA were at its peak!? (is it caus their pinkies like us!?) Its not allowed, to be openly raciest now, so instead society attacks their religions??
We should all be able to laugh at ourselves and be laughed at, I would add though its perfectly acceptable to be angered by idiocy and insensitivity.
A minefield for sure, the world needs religion like a hole in the head. The worship of tangible things like the sun, water, seasons ect makes more sense to me than Gods and kings/Queens

[IC1967]

You must be a leftie if you don't agree with most of what I post. Its a long painful process seeing the errors of your ways but I detect there is hope for you as you are bang on about religion.

Certain things need to happen. Our lily livered politicians need to ban faith schools. All schools should be secular and teach all religions and point out their inconsistencies and silliness instead of brainwashing children who then turn into brainwashed adults. You should have a mix of ethnicities in schools so we can all get to know each others cultures. The over riding culture though that should be taught is the British culture. Freedom of speech should be paramount as without it we question nothing and society would not move forward.

Muslims need to get together and organise a big march in London and show they don't secretly feel that those who 'blaspheme' get what they deserve. Radical mosques should be sorted out by the Muslims. Why don't they do it?

All in all there's a lot more Muslims could be doing to sort out the problem. If they don't, then Islamaphobia is going to get a lot worse.

[bobjimwilly]

A minefield for sure, the world needs religion like a hole in the head. The worship of tangible things like the sun, water, seasons ect makes more sense to me than Gods and kings/Queens

 

[Filo]

I think that all known extremists should be rounded up and interred without charge, people such as that Asghar Bukhari who was on Sky news yesterday, desperate times require desperate measures, moderate muslims should be encouraged to gain back control of their faith

[IC1967]

I think that all known extremists should be rounded up and interred without charge, people such as that Asghar Bukhari who was on Sky news yesterday, desperate times require desperate measures, moderate muslims should be encouraged to gain back control of their faith

Totally agree. These nutters in France were known to the police. No way should they have been allowed out on the streets with their records. We should have zero tolerance for any Muslim extremism. Better to be safe than sorry.

I'll make a bet now. There will be an atrocity in the UK and the perpetrators will already have a track record that most people would think should mean that should have been locked up. While ever they display extremist tendencies then they should never be allowed out. We are far too soft.

Moderate Muslims know who these nutters are. They should be much more proactive in giving them up. We should be far more proactive in locking them up and throwing away the key. If it was up to me they would all be executed as a deterrent and to make me feel better.

One thing that should happen is that the Muslims should march through London displaying banners of the cartoons of the prophet from the French magazine. By doing this they would display that they believe in free speech which currently the vast majority of them don't. It won't happen though.

[Glyn_Wigley]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

[Filo]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets

[IC1967]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

No. Lock em up if they are extremists. The killings in France wouldn't have happened if the powers that be had been a lot tougher on the suspects.

[Filo]

We should have zero tolerance for any Muslim extremism. Better to be safe than sorry.

Your argument would have more weight if you used "extremism" instead of "muslim extremism".

Wanting to prevent acts of terrorism is all well and good, and your views on free speech may be well intentioned, but you come across to me as a racist " If it was up to me they would all be executed as a deterrent and to make me feel better."

Islam is not a race, it's a religion, the extremist Askhar Bakhari tried to play the very same race card on sky news yesterday

[IDM]

OK whatever the -ist or-ism word is for religion then.  The point is the same.

My apologies if "racist" was incorrect, perhaps "bigot" is better?

[Yargo]

Voice of sanity from Mark Steel
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-how-exactly-would-we-like-muslims-to-condemn-these-attacks-9966176.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets

Filo

Have you ever looked into what the effect of internment in Northern Ireland was?

[Filo]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets

Filo

Have you ever looked into what the effect of internment in Northern Ireland was?

To be honest, not really, but how do we protect our citizens from ever increasingly violent extremism?

[Glyn_Wigley]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets

Filo

Have you ever looked into what the effect of internment in Northern Ireland was?

To be honest, not really, but how do we protect our citizens from ever increasingly violent extremism?

Not by Internnment. That makes us look even more like the evil regime and radicalises even more people against us. Internment in Northern Ireland was the best recruitment campaign the IRA ever had.

[Filo]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets

Filo

Have you ever looked into what the effect of internment in Northern Ireland was?

To be honest, not really, but how do we protect our citizens from ever increasingly violent extremism?

Not by Internnment. That makes us look even more like the evil regime and radicalises even more people against us. Internment in Northern Ireland was the best recruitment campaign the IRA ever had.

So what do we do then?

[Mike_F]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

That reminds me if an old case close to home. Remember the lass who was stabbed by a woman with mental health issues in the Frenchgate Centre round about 1990?

The doctor who signed her out if hospital (Neil Wildgoose?) was pilloried and hounded out of his job. My mum worked on ward 10 at the time and I remember clear as day she said that the doctor knew the woman was dangerous and posed a threat to the public but he wasn't allowed to keep her under lock and key because of what she might do.

[Filo]

And as we speak breaking news is there has been another shooting and hostage taken in Paris, more than likely linked to other events, known extremists allowed to roam freely amongst the population!

[BillyStubbsTears]

We protect our citizens by proportionate response. By keeping things in perspective. The shootings in Paris are horrific and shocking. But you don't to that by radicalising the next generation. You keep on chipping away at the problem over a very long time. You bring the moderates on side and you isolate the nutcases, taking them out when necessary.

You accept the fact that there is a problem that has taken centuries to develop and you won't solve it in a few weeks. We will have this problem for decades, there's no question of that. The question is, whether we respond by degenerating into all-out inter-community war, or whether we steel ourselves to deal with the occasional atrocity.

There's some sense of perspective needed here. There have been fewer people killed in Western Europe in the last decade by all the Islamist attacks put together than were killed in one day by Anders Brevik. That's the context. That is not to belittle the massacre that was committed in Paris, or the killing of Lee Rigby. But you don't respond to those things by deliberately inciting the next generation to even worse atrocities.

Internment in Ireland was a disaster. It radicalised the next generation and extended the war by years. That's what happens when entire communities are targeted. It sets up martyrs and myths and those feed the next generation. It's no coincidence that the Paris murderers are of Algerian descent. Go and have a look at what France did in Algeria in the 50s and 60s. Which, again, is not in any way to condone the Paris attacks. But it shows you how effective interring, killing and torturing people does.

[Mike_F]

Back on the topic though, it surprises and worries me that moderate Muslims haven't staged marches against extremism carried out in the name of their religion.

I've read the "why should we apologise for other people's actions" argument plenty of times but perhaps being castigated by their own community would make some of these people think twice about who they're hurting and why. You can also look at the Stop the War marches in London for an example of people rising up against killing in their name. There's a precedent set by people of a Western culture so the Muslim community have no reason not to follow suit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mike.

Perspective again.

Was there an expectation that right wing Christians should have marched to show their disgust at what Brevik did in their name?

[Dagenham Rover]

And as we speak breaking news is there has been another shooting and hostage taken in Paris, more than likely linked to other events, known extremists allowed to roam freely amongst the population!

a jewish supermarket under siege now, just said on news it is linked to the other hostage situation from the Charlie murders as they have said they won't come out/release hostages until the other terroists are no longer under siege

[Glyn_Wigley]

So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. 

That reminds me if an old case close to home. Remember the lass who was stabbed by a woman with mental health issues in the Frenchgate Centre round about 1990?

The doctor who signed her out if hospital (Neil Wildgoose?) was pilloried and hounded out of his job. My mum worked on ward 10 at the time and I remember clear as day she said that the doctor knew the woman was dangerous and posed a threat to the public but he wasn't allowed to keep her under lock and key because of what she might do.

That was the Mental Health system, not the Criminal system. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that the people talked about in this thread should be sectioned for some reason?

[RobTheRover]

And as we speak breaking news is there has been another shooting and hostage taken in Paris, more than likely linked to other events, known extremists allowed to roam freely amongst the population!

a jewish supermarket under siege now, just said on news it is linked to the other hostage situation from the Charlie murders as they have said they won't come out/release hostages until the other terroists are no longer under siege

It is being reported that the suspects are the same ones wanted for the killing of the policewoman yesterday

[Donny Dub]

The only hope for society are the Ten Commandments, anyone remember them?
Good luck!

[River Don]

The only hope for society are the Ten Commandments, anyone remember them?
Good luck!

The problem with these ancient religious texts is it seems they can be interpreted anyway you like.

For every 'thou shalt not kill' you can find an 'eye for an eye'.

The Koran has a thou shalt not kill line but it's qualified. You shall not take life, which god has made sacred, except by the way of justice and law. There's a fair amount of wriggle room in that one!

[Glyn_Wigley]

The only hope for society are the Ten Commandments, anyone remember them?
Good luck!

The problem with these ancient religious texts is it seems they can be interpreted anyway you like.

For every 'thou shalt not kill' you can find an 'eye for an eye'.

The Koran has a thou shalt not kill line but it's qualified. You shall not kill, which god has made sacred, except by the way of justice and law. There's a fair amount of wriggle room in that one!

And the Ten Commandments says 'Thou shalt have no other God than me'...which combined with that makes for a dangerous mixture.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

That's why religious texts have been so powerful over the centuries. You can find whatever you want in them to justify your own prejudices as being the Word of God.

Good innit?

[Donny Dub]

River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to.  I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai.  Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments  are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!

[River Don]

River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to.  I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai.  Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments  are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!

Fair enough.