Orgreave

[BobG]

Sproty - I have met Wilts. He's an intelligent and interesting guy. You don't have to always agree with him to be able to see that. He and I often disagree - but it never means I can't talk to him. If you take the attitude expressed in your last post, you are cutting yourself off from a cracking source of ideas, and, intepretations. Can't you see that those two things, especially when they are different to those one holds oneself, are the most important things in the whole history of human development?  My old Dad used to tell me when I was a lad "Thesis, antithesis, synthesis". In those 3 little words you have the whole history of human development as well as the concept that different points of view are the single most important element in human development.

So take Wilts on board. One can disagree yet still learn an enormous amount.

Cheers

Bob

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty - I have met Wilts. He's an intelligent and interesting guy. You don't have to always agree with him to be able to see that. He and I often disagree - but it never means I can't talk to him. If you take the attitude expressed in your last post, you are cutting yourself off from a cracking source of ideas, and, intepretations. Can't you see that those two things, especially when they are different to those one holds oneself, are the most important things in the whole history of human development?  My old Dad used to tell me when I was a lad "Thesis, antithesis, synthesis". In those 3 little words you have the whole history of human development as well as the concept that different points of view are the single most important element in human development.

So take Wilts on board. One can disagree yet still learn an enormous amount. 
I agree wholeheartedly Bob,but I am not the one who seems to think that all of my 'rants' are personal attacks , they aren't, I have an opinion and. I respect other people's opinions I am not one for falling out with people, even if I don't know them from Adam!
Regards Sproty.


Cheers

Bob

[ravenrover]

If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.

And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.

It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.

I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.

I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.

Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃

I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!

Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉

Is this meant to be a bit of a tribute to the new recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature?

[wilts rover]

If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.

And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.

It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.

I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.

I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.

Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃

I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!

Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉

Is this meant to be a bit of a tribute to the new recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature?

Well that ain't me babe...

[Sprotyrover]

If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.

And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.

It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.

I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.

I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.

Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃

I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!

Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉

Is this meant to be a bit of a tribute to the new recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature?

Well that ain't me babe...

If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.

And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.

It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.

I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.

I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.

Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃

I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!

Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉

Is this meant to be a bit of a tribute to the new recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature?

Well that ain't me babe...

Just because you hate my posts doesn't mean I owe you anything 😎

[darren61]

Sorry for butting in chaps, but, Sprotyrover you come across as a complete and utter  smug tosser, im allright Jack,  sniffin a pair of Thatchers worn knickers bought off Ebay, while tossing off to videos of police violence. We have never met and i would like our relationship to stay that way.

[wilts rover]

Err Darren, would it change your opinon any if I mentioned that my post to Raven and then Sproty's post to me were both Bob Dylan quotes 'en homage' to Ravens' mention of him?

[darren61]

The answer to that, is blowin in the wind.

[wilts rover]

Oh well, you had better stop dreaming of the quiet life because its the one we'll never know...

[darren61]

Thats neat, thats neat, thats neat, thats neat, i really love your tiger feet.

[NickDRFC]

I've never seen you looking so lovely as you did tonight, I've never seen you shine so bright

[Sammy Chung was King]

It ain't me babe, no, no, no it ain't me babe, it ain't me your looking for babe. How many roads must a rovers fan go down, before you can call him a fan?.

[Sprotyrover]

Sorry for butting in chaps, but, Sprotyrover you come across as a complete and utter  smug tosser, im allright Jack,  sniffin a pair of Thatchers worn knickers bought off Ebay, while tossing off to videos of police violence. We have never met and i would like our relationship to stay that way.

"Thatchers Knickers'? ....please not that! 😂

[Sprotyrover]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9kRd9899jGg/UJNsL6T8mEI/AAAAAAAAAB0/fJX3gxifdVA/s320/Internet+Warrior.jpg

This is my favourite selfie!

[darren61]

 Looking good there Spotty!

[Sprotyrover]

Looking good there Spotty!

I usually have my 'hair in Rollers' but I was having a bad day😜

[Filo]

Disgraceful decision by the Government, this is a cover up of epic proportions to protect Thatchers henchmen!

[glosterred]

Why did the Labour Party that was in power for, what was it, 17 years, not order an enquiry?

They are just as much to blame for no enquiry as they could have easily ordered one. They need to explain why they didn't.

[wing commander]

The right decision for me...

[bobjimwilly]

Set a precedent for making mass wrongful arrests, police brutality and police collusion above the law. Not a great result for the union members or British people in general. "Incapacitating demonstrators" (stated in the police’s tactical manual at the time) for no reason other than they were demonstrating is ok is it?

How the hell can no policeman or commanding office be held accountable, even though compensation had been paid out by SYP? Orgreave should be the definition of conspiracy.

"Despite the forceful accounts and arguments provided by the campaigners and former miners who were present that day, about the effect that these events have had on them, ultimately there were no deaths or wrongful convictions,"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/31/government-rules-out-orgreave-inquiry

So because there were no deaths, everything was above board was it? More like they want to preserve whatever legacy they believe Thatcher has left.

[bobjimwilly]

A friend commenting on this on facebook has made a good observation:

"The Tories are making use of a Paradox here. The very people who should be banging the drum of justice, the masses of traditional industrial England and Wales have somehow leaped to the complete opposite side of the fence thanks to the shameless scaremongering of the right wing press.

Calling for justice for crimes committed by the state against those of a leftward leaning becomes a bit of a headf**k when these are the same 'lefties' that are to blame for immigrants taking their jobs, veterans homes, benefits etc. See the paradox?"

The tories have convinced the masses of the working class that it's the fault of labour and their traditional supporters that the country is in such a mess, and in doing so they can brush orgreave under the carpet because, after all, it's the same labour supporters who caused "a riot" in 1984.

[wing commander]

    It's all very well taking the anti thatcher police brutality stance Bobjimwilly and I dare say that on this site that's a 95% held view and without doubt there is a lot of truth to that as we have seen and read...However it's noticeable that the Union apart from a few condemning words on there website is very quiet on this and it's the families who are pushing for this....Why is that?? because they are not really wanting a enquiry either because there actions are not far off as bad as the polices...I used to work with a guy that was not even a miner,paid to be bussed into Orgreave under instructions to cause trouble ..loads of them were....
      The home secretary is right,nobody died,nobody was wrongfully convicted because of police fabricated evidence,and as a tax payer I cant see the justification for millions of pounds of public money to be spent on a enquiry for something that will tell us not a lot more than we already know like others  ie Chillcott...and even Hillsbrough which has had 2 enquiries with 2 different end results depending on what suited best at the time....
     Whilst I appreciate that this will be overwhelmingly disagreed with the right decision has been made for me...

[Filo]

    It's all very well taking the anti thatcher police brutality stance Bobjimwilly and I dare say that on this site that's a 95% held view and without doubt there is a lot of truth to that as we have seen and read...However it's noticeable that the Union apart from a few condemning words on there website is very quiet on this and it's the families who are pushing for this....Why is that?? because they are not really wanting a enquiry either because there actions are not far off as bad as the polices...I used to work with a guy that was not even a miner,paid to be bussed into Orgreave under instructions to cause trouble ..loads of them were....
      The home secretary is right,nobody died,nobody was wrongfully convicted because of police fabricated evidence,and as a tax payer I cant see the justification for millions of pounds of public money to be spent on a enquiry for something that will tell us not a lot more than we already know like others  ie Chillcott...and even Hillsbrough which has had 2 enquiries with 2 different end results depending on what suited best at the time....
     Whilst I appreciate that this will be overwhelmingly disagreed with the right decision has been made for me...

It's OK for SYP to fabricate evidence then?

[wing commander]

   I'm not saying it is Filo,but on the same time it's not okay for people to be paid to cause trouble to make sure it's on the first item of that evenings news either...There is a distinctive blinkered view about what actually happened on here...In my eyes it just doesn't justify the cost to the publics pocket when no convictions will ever forthcoming either way...

[Glyn_Wigley]

The big difference between this and Hillsbrough is that the government knew that with Hillsborough all the blame belongs to the SYP. With this, it would lead all the way back to the Cabinet, and we can't have that brought out into the open can we? It'd lead to all sorts of awkward questions about other times that governments have ridden roughshod over the Rule Of Law! Unthinkable..!

Any proper investigation was never going to happen because of this.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

My only observation is given it was 32 years ago does it really matter that much?  THIS IS difficult one as for those involved it clearly is important, how long do you leave things, indeed is it relevant in 2016?

I'm open either way but it's a point I have heard made...

[wing commander]

it's a emotive subject but only to a few unlike Hillsbrough..The country has no real appetite to demand it..Even here in Yorkshire it's not been demanded that hugely...Of course you've got politicians like Andy Burnham sticking his oar in every chance he gets but that's more to do with his profile in his attempt to become Mayor of Manchester...He proved during his Labour leadership attempt and then complete u turn on what he said during it,that he has more faces than big ben.....It's one of those were whatever happens people are going to disagree...

[idler]

Maybe if it were proven that unofficial or illegal practices were put into action by the government of the time steps could be taken to make sure that it was never repeated.

[Filo]

My only observation is given it was 32 years ago does it really matter that much?  THIS IS difficult one as for those involved it clearly is important, how long do you leave things, indeed is it relevant in 2016?

I'm open either way but it's a point I have heard made...

That point is invalid, should we now drop historical sexual abuse?, should we stop persuing nazi war criminals?


Just because it was a long time ago does n't mean we should dismiss it, just like Norman Tebbit wants us do do. I wonder why? Is it because he was a cabinet minister at that time?

[Bentley Bullet]

Like Glosterred said above, you'd have thought that all the years Labour have been in power since would have led them to force the issue of an enquiry to gain some smartie points over the Tories.