Brexit Negotiations

[selby]

  Not every household Billy, I refer you to my previous post about the dealers(market makers).

[MachoMadness]

The latest in the Brexit sitcom:
Boris has said the negotiations would go much easier if he had his own Foreign Office plane. So Brexit might be a success, but only if we spend a few million quid on a private jet for BoJo. Nice one.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby. Agreed, it’s not every household. But it is the average figure. And as ever, it’ll be the poorest who will be being hit hardest. Sad thing is, they were very much the ones who were talked into voting for this.

[wilts rover]

Sorry Macho I am afraid you are behind the times.

The latest in the Brexit sitcom is that the Government has said that its own figures for one of it's own customs options are 'just speculation'. Or to be more accurate No.10 has contradicted HMRC when they say (in answer to No.10 asking them to estimate the cost) that 'maxfac' will cost £20billion.

A well known phrase involving 'arse' and 'elbow' comes to mind.

[Not Now Kato]

Good job the big red bus is on its way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44230033
 
Oh how the people fell for the lies!  And the least well off fell for it most and will be the worst to suffer....
 
Still, when people finally realise what a big mistake it's been we can always reapply for membership to get back what we already had. There'd only be a few concessions to make, like our special status, the rebates and, of course, having to accept the Euro.

[Not Now Kato]

It's amazing how Brexiteers can use so many words to say absolutely nothing of substance!
 
https://www.andreajenkyns.co.uk/news/my-decision-resign-my-pps-role-government

[selby]

   Looks like the Italians have started a little ripple in the markets as forecast. I can see this becoming more of a wave as time goes on.
  The mediterranean countries are getting fed up with Germany pulling the strings, and Hungary, Poland etc. are not having being told who to accept in their country.
  An interesting summer on the  horizon? The EU have more than one problem on their hands.
  The only way the euro can succeed, is for their to be one federal entity, powered by Germany and France, I cannot see the other regions voting to accept that, in fact they are becoming more nationalistic.
  Government bonds in Italy are at 3% over two years, way below the 7% that triggered the Greece fiasco, but borrowing is 130% of GDP, so the money  men are not happy, and their banks are in big trouble.
  Still recoverable, but if politically they mess up, it could be the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Glyn_Wigley]

An interesting new EU law...

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-brexit-uk-labour-laws-migrant-workers-a8375836.html

[selby]

  Becoming a problem in Germany and France, that's why.

[Not Now Kato]

Do As I Say, Not As I Do | Former U.K. Chancellor of the Exchequer Nigel Lawson, a longtime advocate of Brexit who chaired the Vote Leave campaign, has set out how he’s preparing for Britain’s departure from the EU: He’s applying for French residency, to allow him to continue living in southwest France. He told Connexion he was finding the bureaucracy “tiresome.”
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ncy-vote-leave
 
In the article he goes on to say "I love Europe! That’s why I live in France."
 
You couldn't make it up.... And some people still can't see that they've been conned!

[RedJ]

I struggle to take a man who named his daughter f**king Nigella seriously.

[selby]

  Most of the rich English people who lived in London have moved away, there are too many foreigners living there now for them.
   It is easier to buy a pad in the south of France, and rent their pads out in London at exorbitant rents.
  Buy in the nice parts of France and your neighbours are most likely British as well.

[Glyn_Wigley]

  Most of the rich English people who lived in London have moved away, there are too many foreigners living there now for them.
   It is easier to buy a pad in the south of France, and rent their pads out in London at exorbitant rents.
  Buy in the nice parts of France and your neighbours are most likely British as well.

So they move to France to get away from foreigners? That makes perfect sense!

[DevilMayCry]

An interesting new EU law...

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-brexit-uk-labour-laws-migrant-workers-a8375836.html 

Becoming a problem in Germany and France, that's why.

My father worked for years in constructions in Germany. Everytime he was payed exactly the same as the germans. When I was there and searched for a job, I would have been payed like the germans (the problem at me was that I don't speak fluent german). Believe me, Germany don't have any problem with this. They want migrants to come and do their dirty jobs, because many germans don't want to do it.

That law is about discrimination, that for the same work everybody has to be paid the same, even if he english, german or romanian (and this is something normal).

[selby]

  DMC, it must be only us that have gang masters , and a black economy then.

[hoolahoop]

Are you suggesting he is lying then Selby ?
DMC has been a member of this forum for some time now and I for one don't feel he would have reason to lie to us , do you ?
Perhaps his experiences don't quite fit  with the daft ideology you would much prefer to believe in . Plus que ça change and all that

[hoolahoop]

Selby for the record , I lived in Germany for 7 years when I was younger - I simply don't recognise these sweeping comments I hear all the time about Germany and especially Germans themselves not from you in particular but more generally.

High time that many of our people stopped fighting a war with the current population 73 years on from the end of that war , frankly its childish, ridiculous and dangerous.

We need to move on , we were struggling to do just that right up until we joined the Common Market whereupon our finances and our country as a whole made massive steps to recovery ; only for Brexit to happen and here we go again bickering with our neighbours and threatening to shatter our economy. All this whilst all around us our infrastructure is crumbling and the start of a socio- economic war on the horizon with our European supposed " bezzie " mates.

[DevilMayCry]

Are you suggesting he is lying then Selby ?
DMC has been a member of this forum for some time now and I for one don't feel he would have reason to lie to us , do you ?
Perhaps his experiences don't quite fit  with the daft ideology you would much prefer to believe in . Plus que ça change and all that

I've joined this forum in 2014, before I came there to live in Barnsley (April 2014). I was interested in this team since I heard that Tamas joined the club (Tamas wasn't and isn't my favorite player), and I was curious about the club and the supporters...I've always loved english football, your history and tradition.

I'm an honest man, I don't like lies. What I told about Germany is what I know about them from my father (he started to work there in 1999, when I had 11 years old) and from my experience when I lived there (it was much longer than I lived in UK) and talked with germans.

[Glyn_Wigley]

If there's any truth in this I'll allow myself a wry smile...

https://twitter.com/Far_Right_Watch/status/1004390467675541505

[Glyn_Wigley]

I've just seen this posted elsewhere and I thought it might be worth sharing...

Surely we all remember the promises made during the referendum campaign: We all know the “Land of Unicorns and Rainbows” that was promised: The EU would roll over and give us a “Cake And Eat It” deal, all the foreigners would be shoved over the white cliffs of Dover at the point of a pitchfork and the NHS would be rolling in cash.

But of course, none of those things has happened. And we all know now that they’re not going to. Leave campaign knew this from the very start, but enough people swallowed their lies to get them their 52% and that was what really mattered to them…… was the ONLY thing that mattered to them.

Now their message has changed in a very fundamental way. The message now is about finding a way to de-couple the VOTE to leave the EU from the CONSEQUENCES of leaving and this is being done in six distinct ways.


IT’S TOO LATE NOW
Pretty simple, this one. “The vote’s been held and we’ve got to live with it so get with the programme.” In this narrative, all debate ended with the referendum. Pro Brexit journalist Julia Hartley recently tweeted in response to a question on the lack of foreign investment since the vote: “Look mate, I really don’t care. This question was answered two years ago. Move on with your life.” A typical Brexiter statement.

But politics doesn’t work like that. Winning the vote was just the first – and easiest - part of a process which is going to have consequences for generations to come.


IT’S NOT UP TO US
This is the denial of responsibility. This says that those who led the Leave campaign have done their bit by simply delivering a majority to leave the EU and its up to everybody else now to make it work. But in a way, winning the vote was a disaster for Brexiters because it meant that they became responsible for what happened next.

They were warned over and over of the consequences but insisted that those warnings were not only wrong, but were malevolent, EU motivated fear mongering so Leavers now claim that the current mess is all the Remainers fault and they must now change their attitude. But this is a red herring. In reality it is up to Leavers to make Brexit work, not Remainers who have always insisted that the whole thing would end badly.


IT HASN’T BEEN DONE PROPERLY
This argument tells us that there was nothing wrong with the decision… that all the faults lie with the government. Firstly, Leavers argue that they never specified how Brexit was to be undertaken in a way that doesn’t damage the UK economically, politically or strategically. However, every mis-step of the government has been as a result of pressure from, and cheered on by, “Brexit Ultras” like the Tories favourite panto toff, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and this includes the dogmatic “Red Lines”, the premature triggering of Article 50 and the subsequent premature calling of a General Election to (according to the Daily Mail) “Crush The Saboteurs.”

This narrative often happens in failed businesses where any and every failed management decision is defended by its advocates who claim it would have worked brilliantly if it wasn’t for “inadequate implementation.”

This takes us back to “It’s Not Up To Us” in that Brexiters claim victimhood at the hands of the elite, refusing to accept that having won the referendum and having a government pursuing what they campaigned for, it’s not their fault because they’re not the ones implementing it.

And then, of course, we come to the inevitable……


IT’S ALL THE REMAINERS FAULT
Of course, everything would have been just fine and dandy if it wasn’t for all those dreadful Remoaners who are vacuously accused of sabotage, treachery and talking Brexit down. Depending on the situation, the failure of Brexit is blamed on the Civil Service, the BBC, the CBI, the House of Lords but not, mysteriously, ex-Public Schoolboys, multi millionaires, Hedge Fund speculators, right-wing politicians and media moguls, and newspaper owners who support Brexit. Sometimes, the fault lies with each and every individual of the 48% who voted Remain. Wow..!!

But hold on a minute…… if Brexit had been the wonderful thing its proponents claimed, then it wouldn’t have mattered what the Remainers did or said, would it..?


IT’S ALL THE EU’S FAULT
This is the most dominant of the post referendum excuses made by Brexiters. They claim that the EU has decided to “punish” Britain for leaving. Such claims are nonsense since they ascribe to the EU the consequences of Britain leaving and as such are just another form of denial of responsibility.

For instance, Brexiters blame the EU for the Irish border crisis as something created by the EU, but it isn't. It is the ineluctable legal consequence of leaving the single market and customs union.

The problem with the punishment narrative is that the Brexiters said during the referendum campaign that Britain “Holds all the cards” and that “The EU needs us more than we need them.” If those things were true then no punishment would have been possible. If it was wrong then Vote Leave must indeed have known of the consequences embedded in the lie, consequences that they concealed from the public.


IT’S NOT ABOUT PRACTICAL CONSEQUENCES, IT’S ABOUT PHILOSOPHICAL PRINCIPLES
The last, desperate throw of the dice to give some justification for getting us into this mess, Vote Leave claim a commitment to “sovereignty” in the abstract. This is the “Take Back Control” argument.

This enables them to argue that consequences don’t matter because the referendum was a philosophical vote. But instead of arguing that case on its own, instead they made arguments about immigration and NHS funding…. Arguments which would not have had to be made if they had a pure sovereignty agenda.

As the practical consequences of Brexit mount up and can no longer be dismissed as Project Fear, Brexiters now attempt to counter the Remain argument that “Nobody voted to be poorer.” The real reason behind the sovereignty argument is that it is intended to deflect discussion away from practical consequences.

The sovereignty red herring is used to ignore practical consequences to the extent that many Brexiters now argue that the hardships looming on the horizon are actually desirable because they will create a renewal of national spirit by bringing about a return of the “Dunkirk Spirit.” Whaaaaaat…??

There was a reason they didn’t put this on the big red bus though….. because nobody would have voted for it.



In summary, because the vote to leave the EU was the beginning of a process, not the end of it, the way that Brexiters are now trying to de-couple the vote from the consequences is crucial to them. The benefits promised by Brexit simply haven’t happened and actually look more distant now than ever before.

Immigration hasn’t been halted and they knew it never would be. The day after the referendum, Daniel Hannan stated the Leave campaign “Never said there was going to be some radical decline” (in immigration) and in March 2018 David Davis said that immigration is bound to rise.

Both have now subtly altered their position and say that what really matters is that Britain has its own immigration policy rather than the EU’s. Numbers don’t matter….. we can have as much immigration as (possibly more than) the EU but that will be OK because it would be us allowing it rather than being ordered to by Brussels. Does that sound to you like what we were told during the referendum campaign..? No..? I thought not.

As for free trade, many Brexiters now argue that this was the central argument in favour of Brexit. But it wasn’t. Immigration was and we all know it. And even if free trade had been, it wasn’t explained that any trade policy would involve the relaxation of immigration controls.



So, this is where Brexiters are now. All the referendum swagger has gone, all the promises made have evaporated and in their place are a series of absurd and indefensible arguments which, even if they run together make two fundamentally different claims. One is that whatever happens now is not the fault of Brexiters. The other is that the referendum gave them a blank cheque to do whatever they please… that 23 June 2016 is a frozen in time moment that denotes either the end of their responsibility or the beginning of their freedom to define the consequences.

Both are linked to their boundless dishonesty since neither claim was entertained, let alone endorsed by the referendum.

But they are both profoundly unrealistic because politics did NOT end on 23 June 2016. On the contrary, it began a period of political dislocation in this country that will likely last for decades to come.

Brexiters seem to think that by winning the vote that would be an end to it and it is already obvious that this is not so. If Brexit does go ahead then Brexiters will – quite rightly – be held responsible for every consequence that flows from it.

That is the significance of the excuses they are putting forward to deny that the vote had any consequences. It’s not just that they don’t want to take the blame, they don’t want to take responsibility either.

The ultimate truth about Brexit is that it started as a protest movement with wholly un-thought out, unrealistic and disastrous policies and became – against the odds - a government set on delivering them.

The Brexiters are now running away from the consequences as fast as they can. The tragedy for our country is that in one way or another, the entire population – including the 48% who didn’t want anything to do with it - are stuck with having to live with them.

Today, Theresa May refused to commit to the “detailed, ambitious and precise” paper on Brexit, as promised, ahead of the Summit scheduled for the end of this month. This is just the latest failure of a government who cannot - and doesn't want to - take responsibility for the thing that has come to define it.

[RedJ]

Any chance of a TL;DR summary?

[wesisback]

Fairly strong rumours that David Davis is set to quit tomorrow. It's becoming more and more obvious to even those who want it to work that unfortunately it's set to be an unmitigated disaster.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Threatening to resign is about the only thing he’s done for the past6 months.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/06/all-times-david-davis-has-threatened-resign-over-brexit-didn-t#amp

What a f**king shower. And they’re STILL ahead in the polls.

[hoolahoop]

Are you suggesting he is lying then Selby ?
DMC has been a member of this forum for some time now and I for one don't feel he would have reason to lie to us , do you ?
Perhaps his experiences don't quite fit  with the daft ideology you would much prefer to believe in . Plus que ça change and all that

I've joined this forum in 2014, before I came there to live in Barnsley (April 2014). I was interested in this team since I heard that Tamas joined the club (Tamas wasn't and isn't my favorite player), and I was curious about the club and the supporters...I've always loved english football, your history and tradition.

I'm an honest man, I don't like lies. What I told about Germany is what I know about them from my father (he started to work there in 1999, when I had 11 years old) and from my experience when I lived there (it was much longer than I lived in UK) and talked with germans.

That was exactly why I supported what you said DMC  - long may you stay with the mighty Rovers too friend

[hoolahoop]

Any chance of a TL;DR summary?

Basically not only is the idea of  C.R.A.P. Not a good one neither is the whole fecking shambles of Brexit . Oh and it looks like  Farage is in the shit . Haha

[hoolahoop]

Fairly strong rumours that David Davis is set to quit tomorrow. It's becoming more and more obvious to even those who want it to work that unfortunately it's set to be an unmitigated disaster.

There's going to be a lot of Doncastrians crying into their beer soon at this rate - Brexit is the gift that carries on giving ....

[Glyn_Wigley]

Threatening to resign is about the only thing he’s done for the past6 months.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/06/all-times-david-davis-has-threatened-resign-over-brexit-didn-t#amp

What a f**king shower. And they’re STILL ahead in the polls.

If he DOES finally go, if May has any gumption she'll immediately offer the job to Rees-Mogg to hobble him and his crazy ideas. And make sure everybody knows about it when he turns it down, so that his credibility gets a good kicking.

[MachoMadness]

[BillyStubbsTears]

Threatening to resign is about the only thing he’s done for the past6 months.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/06/all-times-david-davis-has-threatened-resign-over-brexit-didn-t#amp

What a f**king shower. And they’re STILL ahead in the polls.

And so yet another threat to resign comes to nought. And yet another pointless fudge is put forward.

I rarely have much time for Laura Kuenssberg's take on things but she got it bang on yesterday. The Tory party is tearing itself apart over the details of proposals that will not be acceptable to the EU anyway.

And still they are ahead in the polls.

[albie]

There is an elephant in the room, and everyone is ignoring it.

An orange coal pandering elephant in the White House, set on introducing trade barriers to support domestic US industry.

These barriers to trade, and the tit for tat responses that come in their wake, are a fly in the ointment of all those who think we will be able to easily set up free trade agreements with all and sundry.

So the Brexit farce staggers on with the rationale behind the revival cast into the shade.
Nobody says anything.

Treeza kicks the can down the road to hold back the threat of Rees-Smug for another day.
The emperors new clothes show, aboard the Marie Celeste.

Post-ironic comedy at the cutting edge of delusion.
Champion!