Brexit Negotiations

[SydneyRover]

  Resentment will build against such as Barnier and the EU, who will be portrayed in the media as wanting to punish the British People for voting out in the first place, and that if we stay in we  will just be a side show from now on, with France and Germany calling the shots.
 People will become more entrenched, and I do not think the remainers hope of another vote ( which I think we will not have ) will not be the open and shut case the remainers think it will be.

Why would Britain be just a side show if we stay in Selby? its more likely Britain would be a side show if we leave as we are heading that way now. Your view about another vote is just a guess, and anyone saying the opposite has just as much creedence.

You sound like someone that would like people to believe you and just give in, and who said another vote would be an open and shut case in the first place, where do you get all this from?. Sowing seeds of doubt to support your ever fragile position? The facts are coming thick and fast from the remain group whereas the leave group are a fact free zone and always have been.

[wilts rover]

Yes I think you are right Selby. The Brexiteers will continue to refuse to take the blame for the consequences of their actions and continue to try and blame anyone else but themselves.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america

[Sprotyrover]

I lost interest when he got to quoting the size of speed bumps in Burnley🤔

[Bentley Bullet]

Yes I think you are right Selby. The Brexiteers will continue to refuse to take the blame for the consequences of their actions and continue to try and blame anyone else but themselves.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america

The Guardian! 

[Cantley Rover]

Lets face it a very high proportion of those who voted leave did so purely based on immigration and half of those thick buggers dont know who the EU members are.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don’t follow your logic B.B.  what’s the issue with The Guardian?

[Bentley Bullet]

There will be no issues with it in your eyes, BST. Just like there will be no issues with the Express and the Mail in right-wingers eyes.

I'm simply applying the same tactic of writing off an article because of its source that has been used on this forum previously.

[selby]

  What you people do is alienate people, statements like thick buggers and all that.
  As for my fragile position Sydney, I voted to stay in along with the other sides silly buggers and mongs, there again I could always move to my place in Turkey and leave the squabble to sort it out.
  I like to view it as an investment opportunity thick bugger and fragile as I am.
  The day of the Brexit vote I lost probably two years of your income, it has been easy to get that, and more back since. some money people would like this to carry on for ever, they have made millions the thick buggers.

[hoolahoop]

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

"Doncaster promoted to the Premier League"!


 

There was a time when we were in the Championship when I dreamt that our multi- millionaire directors would just put their hands a little deeper in their pockets and go for the Premiership dividend . Sadly like the Brexit dividend - it never existed !

[wilts rover]

Yes I think you are right Selby. The Brexiteers will continue to refuse to take the blame for the consequences of their actions and continue to try and blame anyone else but themselves.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america

The Guardian! 

Thanks BB, I knew someone would criticise the source of the article rather than anything in it, thus giving me the ideal excuse to post this:

This is the stage we have now reached with Brexit. Rhetoric has come toe-to-toe with reality. Those who imagined that Britain is stronger than it is – that the European Union is weaker than it is, the Irish border would matter less than it does, and time would stand still while we worked ourselves out – find their imperial imaginations imploding under the weight of their own hubris. And so they plan to get their accusations of treachery, disappointment and disavowal in early, to avoid the rush.

At this stage it is the government that they claim is failing to deliver the type of Brexit that voters wanted. It’s impossible to tell how they’d know, since the referendum only asked “remain or leave?”, giving no way of knowing precisely what people wanted beyond that. The accusation is also undermined by the fact that for the most part it is Tories accusing other Tories of betrayal. The former could get rid of the prime minister – either by challenging Theresa May internally or backing a vote of no confidence. But they have done neither, making them complicit in whatever “betrayal” now emerges.

Nonetheless, the narrative of betrayal has clear appeal on two fronts. First, it anticipates a life for the Brexit project beyond whatever unsatisfactory outcome is bound to emerge. Betrayal provides a permanent enemy and solid foundations for a longstanding grudge. Just as some white southerners in the US rally around the Confederate “lost cause” more than 150 years after defeat, so some Brexiteers can be galvanised around the noble, and traduced, desire for a monocultural sovereignty for years to come.

Second, it aspires to relieve the instigators of any or all responsibility. The focus of their ire may yet shift to parliament, the media or Whitehall (and nobody ever went broke blaming Jeremy Corbyn for anything), but the logic will remain the same: “Were it not for them [whoever “they” are], this would have been a success.”

[BillyStubbsTears]

 BB

This isn’t about Left vs right. It’s about honesty vs misinformation. The Times and Telegraph are on the Right but I don’t treat them with the contempt I have for the Mail. Because their journalism is honest, even if I don’t agree with their conclusions.

You know why I despise the Mail. I sent you a PM about it a few months ago. I’ll repeat it here for anyone who is interested. When you’ve seen their mendacity close up, it’s truly breathtaking.

3-4 years ago, the company that I run was involved in a major R&D project. The project involved 11 companies, universities and research institutes from across Europe: Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, Netherlands, UK, Greece, Sweden.

The project was part-funded by the EU and was to do with improving aviation security. Basically, we were designing a liner to fit inside the hold of an aircraft so that if a bomb got through security, we could contain the effect of it and give the plane a better chance of surviving.

The project was a great success. We designed a product that was lightweight, cost-effective, and worked. We got a lot of media attention. I was on TV explaining how it worked and showing some of the trials. We put out a press release which was faithfully reported by papers from (literally) Tokyo to Tehran to Tijuana.

And then there was the Mail.

They, alone of all the papers who reported the info in our press release, edited the information.

What did they edit? They removed every mention of the work being a trans-Europe collaboration. They removed every mention of the work being part-funded by the EU. Their edit gave the impression that this was a UK-run and UK-funded project.

That was disgusting. It was deliberately, wilfully and cynically misinforming and misleading their readers. I wrote a letter of complaint. They never answered it.

THAT is why I hate that f**king rag. Because they have manipulated news like that for generations. I’ve seen it close up and it stinks. They are not an honest newspaper. They are a propaganda machine.

The Guardian doesn’t do that. They make mistakes and they correct them. They have a political angle but they don’t deliberately misinform.

You equating the two shows how far down the f**king rabbit hole we are.

[hoolahoop]

I lost interest when he got to quoting the size of speed bumps in Burnley🤔

Are you a changed man Sproty , time was when you would have dissected this piece of well written journalism like a silkworm presented with a pile of mulberry leaves ?  Oh what a yarn you might once have spun from it. ( sorry about that 🤗)

I guess " speed bumps in Burnley " is stretching even your incredulity as much as it did mine. However I am reliably informed there is factual evidence to support what would normally be considered absolute nonsense. No doubt as this mess draws to some kind of f**ked up conclusion we will hear more of this stuff .

[hoolahoop]

Lets face it a very high proportion of those who voted leave did so purely based on immigration and half of those thick buggers dont know who the EU members are.

Perhaps the other half have never met an immigrant either .

[hoolahoop]

  What you people do is alienate people, statements like thick buggers and all that.
  As for my fragile position Sydney, I voted to stay in along with the other sides silly buggers and mongs, there again I could always move to my place in Turkey and leave the squabble to sort it out.
  I like to view it as an investment opportunity thick bugger and fragile as I am.
  The day of the Brexit vote I lost probably two years of your income, it has been easy to get that, and more back since. some money people would like this to carry on for ever, they have made millions the thick buggers.

Plenty of room there now those 7,000,000 + Turks have moved out I bet as well selby.

[SydneyRover]

''The accusers’ inability to rally significant numbers to their cause in parliament is due to the fact that the few proposals they have are even less plausible or popular than May’s. For example, neither David Davis, the former Brexit secretary, nor Boris Johnson, the former foreign secretary, produced a workable alternative in their resignation speeches and letters. “The problem is not that we failed to make the case for a free trade agreement of the kind spelt out at Lancaster House,” Johnson said in the Commons this week. “We haven’t even tried.” Quite what stopped him, as a leave campaigner, prime ministerial contender, or foreign secretary, from spelling out precisely what that case was is not clear''

This para could be applied to any or most brexiteers' positions which is why I keep asking because I'm genuinely interested to hear what drives people to support the leave position.

Unless one adopts the Trump position of not having a fixed position that can change depending what day it is then after all these years those that want Britain to pull the plug should have their facts together right? they have had plenty of time to work it out right? they should, especially those in power have it down on paper what they want and the modeling to show them and more importantly show us what the consequenses will be, right? but do they? and to anyone reading this do you and can you articulate it? The more people that express to others what they want and explain why will be the start of a valid conversation but as in most cases they don't and I'm guessing most of them can't. As in the para above those in power don't have a clue and they have at their disposal the means to be have experts give them a few. Maybe it's frustration that people are reduced to name calling Selby and if I have lowered myself to that position it's probably due to frustration, because brixiters will read this and other's comments asking why and how, genuinely wanting to hear the monumental arguments and reasons that will change Brition forever and what will be the reply? some non-sequitur nonsense extending the conversation further but not answering the bloody question.

[selby]

Hoola, I don't really know as the property has been rented to a German motor company for the last couple of years for some of their employees.
   Believe it or not I have holidayed in Wales, and it has been great.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, where did I go wrong in accepting that the vote went against my decision and as a result, went in full support of the majority decision? Should I have said f**k democracy and demanded another vote? Should only Guardian readers have been allowed to vote?

What is your view on democracy?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Go to bed BB

[Bentley Bullet]

No BST, why don't you wake up instead?

[SydneyRover]

BST, where did I go wrong in accepting that the vote went against my decision and as a result, went in full support of the majority decision? Should I have said f**k democracy and demanded another vote? Should only Guardian readers have been allowed to vote?

What is your view on democracy?

I dont speak for BST but if you did go wrong its not surprising with all the false claims and misinformation that has been peddalled around, and if your favourite media outlet/s the ones you get your information from has let you down by feeding you lies and rubbish it would be foolish to keep supporting them wouldnt you think? especially if they are deliberately attempting to deceive you. As for only The Guardian readers being allowed to vote, thats just another red herring and if by now you dont understand its editorial policy (its been around for 111 years) or dont want to then that is up to you, as many have said in the past, you cant argue with personal preference, but if it is pesonal preference you are claiming then you shouldnt expect others to either understand or agree with with your position.

[Bentley Bullet]

What the f**k are you on about?

[SydneyRover]

What the f**k are you on about?

This is the big question that those wanting to stay in the EU have been asking since the vote, and not a single Brexiteer has made any sense in trying to answer it.

[hoolahoop]

BB

This isn’t about Left vs right. It’s about honesty vs misinformation. The Times and Telegraph are on the Right but I don’t treat them with the contempt I have for the Mail. Because their journalism is honest, even if I don’t agree with their conclusions.

You know why I despise the Mail. I sent you a PM about it a few months ago. I’ll repeat it here for anyone who is interested. When you’ve seen their mendacity close up, it’s truly breathtaking.

3-4 years ago, the company that I run was involved in a major R&D project. The project involved 11 companies, universities and research institutes from across Europe: Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, Netherlands, UK, Greece, Sweden.

The project was part-funded by the EU and was to do with improving aviation security. Basically, we were designing a liner to fit inside the hold of an aircraft so that if a bomb got through security, we could contain the effect of it and give the plane a better chance of surviving.

The project was a great success. We designed a product that was lightweight, cost-effective, and worked. We got a lot of media attention. I was on TV explaining how it worked and showing some of the trials. We put out a press release which was faithfully reported by papers from (literally) Tokyo to Tehran to Tijuana.

And then there was the Mail.

They, alone of all the papers who reported the info in our press release, edited the information.

What did they edit? They removed every mention of the work being a trans-Europe collaboration. They removed every mention of the work being part-funded by the EU. Their edit gave the impression that this was a UK-run and UK-funded project.

That was disgusting. It was deliberately, wilfully and cynically misinforming and misleading their readers. I wrote a letter of complaint. They never answered it.

THAT is why I hate that f**king rag. Because they have manipulated news like that for generations. I’ve seen it close up and it stinks. They are not an honest newspaper. They are a propaganda machine.

The Guardian doesn’t do that. They make mistakes and they correct them. They have a political angle but they don’t deliberately misinform.

You equating the two shows how far down the f**king rabbit hole we are.

It really is a sad indictment of the way our " supposed " free and balanced press has become . I'm not sure that as bad as this newspaper is and has been over the years, that it has come close to The Daily Express. ( or the now defunct News of The World ) .

I think though it's not just the lack of balance and in many cases the downright lies and exaggerations but the glaring omissions that probably annoy me the most. Where are the articles on the positives that the EU, and the Common Market before it, have brought to people's lives ? - there are glaring and deliberate holes in the UK - EU story . That, as BST has already stated, has occurred over 40 + years the drip, drip ,drip of negative press has helped to drive that wedge between our people and the concept

There was and is so much more information that could have been provided by this and the other rag.
Whilst I am typing this I'm surrounded by paperwork prepared by my daughter , her " selvforsørgelseserklaering " documentation in readiness for her year of further studies in Denmark. Erasmus + docs have been prepared to help widen her scope of the world all round the country other daring British youngsters will also be preparing their docs to travel/study in Europe and the World .
The constant " pinging " from her phone as she learns Danish not only reminds me that she will leaving home for 9- 12 months but has even prompted me to join her in her language studies rather than complain about it . Danish is a devil to get your head around - I wished I had started 6 months ago !

Study abroad or Erasmus + in this case has barely had a mention for years yet
why there hasn't been any news of this programme when '000s of our youngsters benefit from it each and every year ? That , like the above ( BST's experience ) is obvious - it has positive benefits for our citizens and for our workforce as these youngsters feed back into our society and to accentuate that positive would be anathema to the Daily Mail .
Yes they get an EU support grant but that money produces more rounded British and Europeans citizens that for many from disadvantaged backgrounds throughout the continent would never have been possible in the past.

The contacts that are made for future potential joint projects and a means to encourage the brightest from the continent to study at our unis are all to obvious. My fear is that she could be forced to come home early next year. My fear is that as we turn in on ourselves we narrow the opportunities for future generations .

That for many is a reality in an increasingly globalised world. However for us as a country " going global " - entails being increasingly isolationist in outlook.
The real sucker punch is that the EU has already beaten us to all those trade deals - if they tick off the USA we are " dead " in the water - the even more left behinds. Who to blame then ?

[hoolahoop]

What the f**k are you on about?

What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to

[SydneyRover]

BB

This isn’t about Left vs right. It’s about honesty vs misinformation. The Times and Telegraph are on the Right but I don’t treat them with the contempt I have for the Mail. Because their journalism is honest, even if I don’t agree with their conclusions.

You know why I despise the Mail. I sent you a PM about it a few months ago. I’ll repeat it here for anyone who is interested. When you’ve seen their mendacity close up, it’s truly breathtaking.

3-4 years ago, the company that I run was involved in a major R&D project. The project involved 11 companies, universities and research institutes from across Europe: Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, Netherlands, UK, Greece, Sweden.

The project was part-funded by the EU and was to do with improving aviation security. Basically, we were designing a liner to fit inside the hold of an aircraft so that if a bomb got through security, we could contain the effect of it and give the plane a better chance of surviving.

The project was a great success. We designed a product that was lightweight, cost-effective, and worked. We got a lot of media attention. I was on TV explaining how it worked and showing some of the trials. We put out a press release which was faithfully reported by papers from (literally) Tokyo to Tehran to Tijuana.

And then there was the Mail.

They, alone of all the papers who reported the info in our press release, edited the information.

What did they edit? They removed every mention of the work being a trans-Europe collaboration. They removed every mention of the work being part-funded by the EU. Their edit gave the impression that this was a UK-run and UK-funded project.

That was disgusting. It was deliberately, wilfully and cynically misinforming and misleading their readers. I wrote a letter of complaint. They never answered it.

THAT is why I hate that f**king rag. Because they have manipulated news like that for generations. I’ve seen it close up and it stinks. They are not an honest newspaper. They are a propaganda machine.

The Guardian doesn’t do that. They make mistakes and they correct them. They have a political angle but they don’t deliberately misinform.

You equating the two shows how far down the f**king rabbit hole we are.

It really is a sad indictment of the way our " supposed " free and balanced press has become . I'm not sure that as bad as this newspaper is and has been over the years, that it has come close to The Daily Express. ( or the now defunct News of The World ) .

I think though it's not just the lack of balance and in many cases the downright lies and exaggerations but the glaring omissions that probably annoy me the most. Where are the articles on the positives that the EU, and the Common Market before it, have brought to people's lives ? - there are glaring and deliberate holes in the UK - EU story . That, as BST has already stated, has occurred over 40 + years the drip, drip ,drip of negative press has helped to drive that wedge between our people and the concept

There was and is so much more information that could have been provided by this and the other rag.
Whilst I am typing this I'm surrounded by paperwork prepared by my daughter , her " selvforsørgelseserklaering " documentation in readiness for her year of further studies in Denmark. Erasmus + docs have been prepared to help widen her scope of the world all round the country other daring British youngsters will also be preparing their docs to travel/study in Europe and the World .
The constant " pinging " from her phone as she learns Danish not only reminds me that she will leaving home for 9- 12 months but has even prompted me to join her in her language studies rather than complain about it . Danish is a devil to get your head around - I wished I had started 6 months ago !

Study abroad or Erasmus + in this case has barely had a mention for years yet
why there hasn't been any news of this programme when '000s of our youngsters benefit from it each and every year ? That , like the above ( BST's experience ) is obvious - it has positive benefits for our citizens and for our workforce as these youngsters feed back into our society and to accentuate that positive would be anathema to the Daily Mail .
Yes they get an EU support grant but that money produces more rounded British and Europeans citizens that for many from disadvantaged backgrounds throughout the continent would never have been possible in the past.

The contacts that are made for future potential joint projects and a means to encourage the brightest from the continent to study at our unis are all to obvious. My fear is that she could be forced to come home early next year. My fear is that as we turn in on ourselves we narrow the opportunities for future generations .

That for many is a reality in an increasingly globalised world. However for us as a country " going global " - entails being increasingly isolationist in outlook.
The real sucker punch is that the EU has already beaten us to all those trade deals - if they tick off the USA we are " dead " in the water - the even more left behinds. Who to blame then ?

Anyone that has owned a business, managed a business or been involved with buying ot selling for a business knows that the bigger you are the larger the orders you place the better the prices you get. Thats all you have to know about where British trade is headed and if anyone thinks that another country is going to risk sanctions from Europe by offering Britain a better deal than the EU then you are wrong. Your credit is only as good as your last order.

Thanks Hoola for sharing your personal story, its the connections between countries and peoples that make the world an exiting place to live, work and explore.

[wilts rover]

Hoola you must have missed May's announcement in December (easily done as they were announcing the figures for the divorce bill & that problem over the Irish border came up) that Britain was commited to staying in the Erasmus programme until at least the end of the transition period, December 2020.
https://inews.co.uk/news/education/theresa-may-commits-britain-erasmus-student-exchange-2020/

Clearly like Euroatem, Europol, European Arrest Warrant, ESA, the Galileo project and the rest, Erasmus is an EU programme the government values and would like to stay part of but no deal means no deal on any of them.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-education/brexit-may-hurt-popular-erasmus-student-exchange-scheme-officials-say-idUSKBN1FJ2N1

[Bentley Bullet]

What the f**k are you on about?

What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to

What? Who? I don't understand.

[SydneyRover]

All vote leavers to be arrested, fake news but maybe not for the vote leave campaign, maybe Boris will get his comeuppance too.

Brexit campaign chief must be hauled before Commons, say MPs.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/21/brexit-campaign-chief-dominic-cummings-should-be-forced-to-give-evidence-to-commons

[Glyn_Wigley]

What the f**k are you on about?

What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to

What? Who? I don't understand.

Yes we know. You not understanding is your default reply.

[Bentley Bullet]

What the f**k are you on about?

What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to

What? Who? I don't understand.

Yes we know. You not understanding is your default reply.

OK then Mr Wewewewewiggerly, you explain.