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BSThttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36099043This article explains that due to the EU we have had problems raising the trade tariff on china. Now tell me again how the EU doesn't have a negative impact on British industry.
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 09:11:32 pmBSThttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36099043This article explains that due to the EU we have had problems raising the trade tariff on china. Now tell me again how the EU doesn't have a negative impact on British industry. It does nothing of the sort. It only says that it's a difficult decision because of the possible implications of retaliatory action, not that there are any problems raising tariffs. And it doesn't mention the EU once. No evidence whatsoever.
ASWhich arguments of mine have you shown to be wrong?
ASYour persevernce in your arguments is admirable but I am afraid your arguments themselves are less the pursusive.In October 2016 the EU imposed a tariff of 22% on the import of Chinese steel to stop dumping.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tataIn April 2017 it further raised these to 36%.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tataThis angered the Chinese who argued that this was against WTO rules and they would lodge a case with the WTO for compensation unless these were dropped. Thus in October 2017 the EU revised their tariffs and rules to avoid this case (which is your Telegraph story)https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/china-goes-public-in-wto-dispute-with-eu-and-us/articleshow/62088521.cmshttps://thediplomat.com/2017/12/eus-new-anti-dumping-rules-threaten-trade-relations-with-china/Of course there was one country in the EU that has always opposed raising tariffs on Chinese goods including steel - the UK.https://fullfact.org/europe/is-uk-calling-for-lower-eu-duties-chinese-steel/At no point in any of the Brexit negotiations have I ever heard anyone (other than you) say that it will allow us in the future to put barriers on trading with China. In fact all I have heard is that it will allow us to get a better free trade deal with China and more cheap Chinese imports. Which is why Cameron has been appointed some sort of trade ambassador to China and ministers have been out there last week. I have no idea if these will lead to more imports of cheap Chinese steel but it certainly wont lead to less. And there is no way we could impose the extra tarrifs you want - it's illegal under WTO rules as that DT article shows.Give it up. There is no economic argument for leaving the world's largest trading block. There is an ideological one but that's another story/argument on the lines of Farage.
The weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 09:57:48 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 09:11:32 pmBSThttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36099043This article explains that due to the EU we have had problems raising the trade tariff on china. Now tell me again how the EU doesn't have a negative impact on British industry. It does nothing of the sort. It only says that it's a difficult decision because of the possible implications of retaliatory action, not that there are any problems raising tariffs. And it doesn't mention the EU once. No evidence whatsoever.Firstly it does mention the EU, second of all who do you think manages the european/ china tariffs from the european side of business? Its not individual countries as we aren't allowed to do that are we?
QuoteThe weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.Jesus wept! How many times? By what measures I you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro? And what on Earth has any of that to do with our membership of the EU?
I think your post highlights some of the difficulties with the EU, being the time and complexity of putting safeguards, such as the aforementioned trade agreements in place. To try and put in a trade agreement to stem the flow of steel after the industry has already been destroyed is frustrating and ludicrous. Too little too late. How many times will the EU let this happen? The weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.I am not, and have not directly advocated higher tariffs with the Chinese in any of my posts, there are other protective measures that can be incorporated into trade agreements without the need for higher tariffs. As for Cameron and co I would check the lining of there pockets upon any agreement being reached. There will be no trade deal unless her personally benefits massively from it.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 04, 2018, 10:54:23 pmQuoteThe weakness of the euro compared to the strength of sterling also led to the steel contract for Hinkley Point being made off shore at the very point our plants were going under.Jesus wept! How many times? By what measures I you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro? And what on Earth has any of that to do with our membership of the EU?On what basis don't you?
The last 1 stu, it's not about labour it's about any party, what they do is give a bit in 1 hand take it out the other but when all is done not much changes whichever party is in power
Quote from: wilts rover on January 04, 2018, 10:29:14 pmASYour persevernce in your arguments is admirable but I am afraid your arguments themselves are less the pursusive.In October 2016 the EU imposed a tariff of 22% on the import of Chinese steel to stop dumping.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tataIn April 2017 it further raised these to 36%.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-union-import-duties-chinese-steel-port-talbot-tataThis angered the Chinese who argued that this was against WTO rules and they would lodge a case with the WTO for compensation unless these were dropped. Thus in October 2017 the EU revised their tariffs and rules to avoid this case (which is your Telegraph story)https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/china-goes-public-in-wto-dispute-with-eu-and-us/articleshow/62088521.cmshttps://thediplomat.com/2017/12/eus-new-anti-dumping-rules-threaten-trade-relations-with-china/Of course there was one country in the EU that has always opposed raising tariffs on Chinese goods including steel - the UK.https://fullfact.org/europe/is-uk-calling-for-lower-eu-duties-chinese-steel/At no point in any of the Brexit negotiations have I ever heard anyone (other than you) say that it will allow us in the future to put barriers on trading with China. In fact all I have heard is that it will allow us to get a better free trade deal with China and more cheap Chinese imports. Which is why Cameron has been appointed some sort of trade ambassador to China and ministers have been out there last week. I have no idea if these will lead to more imports of cheap Chinese steel but it certainly wont lead to less. And there is no way we could impose the extra tarrifs you want - it's illegal under WTO rules as that DT article shows.Give it up. There is no economic argument for leaving the world's largest trading block. There is an ideological one but that's another story/argument on the lines of Farage.Yes AS fascinating as this whole debate has been and I must say taken in good- spirit WITHOUT anyone being patronising . This final quote is the most interesting and unhinged your fine attempts to make a good fist out of weak facts. I do wish you had the grace to concede when you are clearly fighting a losing battle though as difficult as that is .Fact is the EU has had a negligible effect on our Steel Industry and you haven't proven your case in the least. Anyway here's the quote I was referring to and perhaps you can enlighten me as to our actions ......" Of course there was one country in the EU that has always opposed raising tariffs on Chinese goods including steel - the UK. "Finally there are many Remainers on here and all have expressed some concern or another with the structure and day to day workings of the EU - however it is the best out there " warts and all " for us as a leading European country and certainly a better option than chasing trade deals with China ( strangely ) , USA , India and Turkey. There are many other ties we have with the bloc too and it has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the benefits of our being a member far outweighed the costs. Still Brexit has killed the goose that lay the golden egg and that won't be replaced with inferior trade deals with any combination of the above countries . There are so many costs, more than anyone voting in that Referendum could ever know or perhaps admit to. It's not too late AS , oh and that decision NOT to put tariffs on Chinese goods anything to do with keeping the Chinese happy with their investment in Hinckley B or a future trade deal ? I am still waiting for a Leaver to say anything positive about our 40 + years in the EU . Can you think of anything Aidanstu ?
Smashing AS I anticipated a reply that gave some positives about the EU followed by reasons why they were probably worthless so therefore to your way of thinking a complete waste of time to the average Joe Bloggs out there.How you have missed the many many other positives that this country has received by being a member of this trading bloc shows you up . The way our people move , work, educate, retire and holiday seamlessly for the last 40 + years seems to have gone completely unnoticed by you . Where have you been or rather where have you NOT been during this time astounds me ?It is obvious from your posts that you are a bright chap , able to wriggle your way out of the blind alleys that you yourself find yourself in ; so I find myself wondering whether you are being deliberately awkward ( a denier) or perhaps you have been brainwashed . My hope is that it is the former rather than the latter and at some stage you will finally drop the pretence and admit that you actually enjoy taking on a group of intellectuals on the back foot from the start . If so you deserve my admiration for making a really good fist in defending an extremely weak standpoint. I'm not going to sit and list all the Treaties between the 28 as I suspect you yourself already know them all off by heart. Giving links to argument after argument and fact after fact about the prosperity that being a member of this club has bought us would I fear be lost on you anyway judging by what I've seen in this thread. Finally just one final thought , I do have to declare an interest here with my daughter going to study at the University of Copenhagen next year with the financial support of the Erasmus + programme . She is not alone locally , kids from our area could never have dreamed of these opportunities in the 70's or for that matter afford them even now. In much the same way as the European Re-generation projects have propelled this region forward out of the ashes of Thatcher's Britain - these are two specific policies that our people have enjoyed the benefit of and sadly you failed to mention . Please open your eyes or at least drop the pretence. Sorry I failed to address your final point on Hinckley B, yes it is a vanity project , like HS 2/3 - all persued to provide cover for what is to come . Yet another pretence to con the peoples of the Midlands and the North of England that all is well when quite clearly it won't be either affordable or sensible to persue projects that will be wildly out of date by the time of completion and providing of course the money lasts.
The paragraph you refer to above is an example of the EU inability to respond in a timely manner in regards to the threat of international trade, (it started to respond in 2014, way after the Chinese steel industry and exploited Europe. it was argued that the deal the EU was trying to enforce and which the UK was trying to avoid was one that simply throwing the baby out with the bath water and did nothing to protect British steel but was going to damage other trade links. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35951108
Quote from: hoolahoop on January 05, 2018, 07:17:36 pmSmashing AS I anticipated a reply that gave some positives about the EU followed by reasons why they were probably worthless so therefore to your way of thinking a complete waste of time to the average Joe Bloggs out there.How you have missed the many many other positives that this country has received by being a member of this trading bloc shows you up . The way our people move , work, educate, retire and holiday seamlessly for the last 40 + years seems to have gone completely unnoticed by you . Where have you been or rather where have you NOT been during this time astounds me ?It is obvious from your posts that you are a bright chap , able to wriggle your way out of the blind alleys that you yourself find yourself in ; so I find myself wondering whether you are being deliberately awkward ( a denier) or perhaps you have been brainwashed . My hope is that it is the former rather than the latter and at some stage you will finally drop the pretence and admit that you actually enjoy taking on a group of intellectuals on the back foot from the start . If so you deserve my admiration for making a really good fist in defending an extremely weak standpoint. I'm not going to sit and list all the Treaties between the 28 as I suspect you yourself already know them all off by heart. Giving links to argument after argument and fact after fact about the prosperity that being a member of this club has bought us would I fear be lost on you anyway judging by what I've seen in this thread. Finally just one final thought , I do have to declare an interest here with my daughter going to study at the University of Copenhagen next year with the financial support of the Erasmus + programme . She is not alone locally , kids from our area could never have dreamed of these opportunities in the 70's or for that matter afford them even now. In much the same way as the European Re-generation projects have propelled this region forward out of the ashes of Thatcher's Britain - these are two specific policies that our people have enjoyed the benefit of and sadly you failed to mention . Please open your eyes or at least drop the pretence. Sorry I failed to address your final point on Hinckley B, yes it is a vanity project , like HS 2/3 - all persued to provide cover for what is to come . Yet another pretence to con the peoples of the Midlands and the North of England that all is well when quite clearly it won't be either affordable or sensible to persue projects that will be wildly out of date by the time of completion and providing of course the money lasts. Hoola differences apart I am aware of some of the positives Europe brings, although overall I still want out. That said I wish your daughters well for their studies.
Do you think it will make much difference to the average person if we are in or out of the eu? I was thinking back to when labour were in power other day and to be honest it's no different from now, apart from a few quid either way I'm not sure it makes any difference
Quote from: bpoolrover on January 04, 2018, 01:49:13 pmDo you think it will make much difference to the average person if we are in or out of the eu? I was thinking back to when labour were in power other day and to be honest it's no different from now, apart from a few quid either way I'm not sure it makes any differencehttp://eprints.lse.ac.uk/67030/1/Begg_EU%20budget.pdfPage 7, chart shows that of the 4 largest economies Britains contributions are the lowest."UK household is £3,000 per year better off through belonging to the EU. This may or may not be a well-founded statistic, but it is derived from an assessment that includes the effects of lower pricesattributable to the more competitive business environment of the single market and various"If I have read correctly Britain's contributions work out to be 1% of the GNI, and as BST stated earlier the cost of a coffee/wk/person.
Quote from: SydneyRover on January 06, 2018, 06:39:47 amQuote from: bpoolrover on January 04, 2018, 01:49:13 pmDo you think it will make much difference to the average person if we are in or out of the eu? I was thinking back to when labour were in power other day and to be honest it's no different from now, apart from a few quid either way I'm not sure it makes any differencehttp://eprints.lse.ac.uk/67030/1/Begg_EU%20budget.pdfPage 7, chart shows that of the 4 largest economies Britains contributions are the lowest."UK household is £3,000 per year better off through belonging to the EU. This may or may not be a well-founded statistic, but it is derived from an assessment that includes the effects of lower pricesattributable to the more competitive business environment of the single market and various"If I have read correctly Britain's contributions work out to be 1% of the GNI, and as BST stated earlier the cost of a coffee/wk/person.Which people are £3000 better off? The average jo in the street? I think not. Both the London school of economics is part funded by the EU, is based in Westminster and benefit from the tuition fees of European students. What other motivation would they need to turn out such a report in any event. Hardly independent.All of the references used in the report predate 2010 so the research is not either recent or relevant. Nice try though.