Brexit deal

[Copps is Magic]

AL
And THAT sums up the idiocy of quite a few Brexit supporters I've had the misfortune of interacting with.

Let's chuck ourselves into the problems and privations that you have no option but to face in a war because...Well because what? It feels like there are a lot of fragile egos around who feel themselves to be less of a man because they never had to face down an existential enemy in battle.

It's beyond stupid and beyond pathetic. Fortunately, there are far too many grown ups in the country to allow us to be tipped into this sort of juvenile fantasy land.

This is an existential threat to our nation. Do we go forward as a free nation or allow ourselves to become part of a United States of Europe which is not what we signed up for in the seventies?

Well you've reached an interesting cross-roads there because it was Winston Churchill himself who was one of the first to propose a 'United States of Europe'.

[Axholme Lion]

AL
And THAT sums up the idiocy of quite a few Brexit supporters I've had the misfortune of interacting with.

Let's chuck ourselves into the problems and privations that you have no option but to face in a war because...Well because what? It feels like there are a lot of fragile egos around who feel themselves to be less of a man because they never had to face down an existential enemy in battle.

It's beyond stupid and beyond pathetic. Fortunately, there are far too many grown ups in the country to allow us to be tipped into this sort of juvenile fantasy land.

This is an existential threat to our nation. Do we go forward as a free nation or allow ourselves to become part of a United States of Europe which is not what we signed up for in the seventies?

Well you've reached an interesting cross-roads there because it was Winston Churchill himself who was one of the first to propose a 'United States of Europe'.

Well he got that one wrong then didn't he, or is that the route you would like to go in?

[Bentley Bullet]

Now I'm no historian and might be way out here but following WW1 didn't Churchill say "a "European Union" was possible between continental states, but without Britain's involvement:
We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonality. But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not compromised. We are interested and associated but not absorbed".

[Axholme Lion]

Now I'm no historian and might be way out here but following WW1 didn't Churchill say "a "European Union" was possible between continental states, but without Britain's involvement:
We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonality. But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not compromised. We are interested and associated but not absorbed".

That sounds very sensible to me.

[Copps is Magic]

AL
And THAT sums up the idiocy of quite a few Brexit supporters I've had the misfortune of interacting with.

Let's chuck ourselves into the problems and privations that you have no option but to face in a war because...Well because what? It feels like there are a lot of fragile egos around who feel themselves to be less of a man because they never had to face down an existential enemy in battle.

It's beyond stupid and beyond pathetic. Fortunately, there are far too many grown ups in the country to allow us to be tipped into this sort of juvenile fantasy land.

This is an existential threat to our nation. Do we go forward as a free nation or allow ourselves to become part of a United States of Europe which is not what we signed up for in the seventies?

Well you've reached an interesting cross-roads there because it was Winston Churchill himself who was one of the first to propose a 'United States of Europe'.

Well he got that one wrong then didn't he, or is that the route you would like to go in?

You brought it up. What do have against the idea?

[wilts rover]

'I wish to speak about the tragedy of Europe, this noble continent, the home of all the great parent races of the Western world, the foundation of Christian faith and ethics, the origin of most of the culture, arts, philosophy and science both of ancient and modern times. If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy.'

'We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.'

'Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The peoples have only to will it and all will achieve their heart’s desire.'

'There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause. '

'we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must be created by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny.'

Extracts from Churchill's 'United States of Europe' speech given at Zurich University in 1946. The full speech (worth reading) is here:
https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1946-1963-elder-statesman/united-states-of-europe/

[Copps is Magic]

Now I'm no historian and might be way out here but following WW1 didn't Churchill say "a "European Union" was possible between continental states, but without Britain's involvement:
We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonality. But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not compromised. We are interested and associated but not absorbed".

That sounds very sensible to me.

Except it isn't, and he wouldn't say the same thing today because the world is very different. The empire has gone, the 'threat' of communism from the east has receded, Germany's economy isn't in ruins and smaller than ours, America doesn't care about the 'special relationship' etc. The 'compromise' he talks of is to those type of issues. But they have all been compromised already and consigned to history (unlike the opinions of some who still seem to live in the shadows of WW2).

[scawsby steve]

If it was just a choice of the two I'd vote Conservative. I would never, ever vote for a party that has Diane Abbott in it. That in itself describes to me how out of touch Corbyn is so I wouldn't vote for a party with him in it either.

Sounds like there mat be a bit of jealousy there bb

Sydney, you've stopped quoting the latest score on that stupid petition. Come on man, keep up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL

Grow up.

Go and read that piece by Peter Oborne, who has had a lifetime of being anti-EU.

As he says, it's infantile to choose to tip yourself into economic catastrophe. You don't CHOOSE to do that. You do it when there's no alternative because the consequences of not doing it are even worse.

So yes, if you're faced with a Hitler or a Napoleon, you have no option but to roll up your sleeves and grit your teeth and accept the economic hardship.

But to compare the EU to threats like that and to say that the EU is such a threat that you would CHOOSE to make yourself poorer and weaker is just f**king childish idiocy.

[foxbat]

Actually I am fine with a United States of Europe.
Civilization's best hope at the moment.

[Bentley Bullet]

'I wish to speak about the tragedy of Europe, this noble continent, the home of all the great parent races of the Western world, the foundation of Christian faith and ethics, the origin of most of the culture, arts, philosophy and science both of ancient and modern times. If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy.'

'We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.'

'Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The peoples have only to will it and all will achieve their heart’s desire.'

'There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause. '

'we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must be created by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny.'

Extracts from Churchill's 'United States of Europe' speech given at Zurich University in 1946. The full speech (worth reading) is here:
https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1946-1963-elder-statesman/united-states-of-europe/

Wilts, was Churchill including Britain in that united Europe?

[wilts rover]

'I wish to speak about the tragedy of Europe, this noble continent, the home of all the great parent races of the Western world, the foundation of Christian faith and ethics, the origin of most of the culture, arts, philosophy and science both of ancient and modern times. If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy.'

'We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.'

'Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The peoples have only to will it and all will achieve their heart’s desire.'

'There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause. '

'we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must be created by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny.'

Extracts from Churchill's 'United States of Europe' speech given at Zurich University in 1946. The full speech (worth reading) is here:
https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1946-1963-elder-statesman/united-states-of-europe/

Wilts, was Churchill including Britain in that united Europe?

Well he uses the word 'we' quite a lot. What other country would Winston Churchill reference as 'we' other than Britain?

[Bentley Bullet]

Wasn't he referring to 'we' as Europe?

[RedJ]

Wasn't he referring to 'we' as Europe?

.. Well aye, precisely. Since we are a part of Europe...

[wilts rover]

Wasn't he referring to 'we' as Europe?

Well shortly after that speech he was instrumental in setting up the British United Europe Movement. In 1948 he led the British delegation to the First Congress of Europe, and was made Honorary President of the Congress. In his inaugural speech he talks about the 16 states (so clearly including Britain) and explicitly said

'The Council of Europe, including Great Britain linked with her Empire and Commonwealth..'
https://www.cvce.eu/en/obj/address_given_by_winston_churchill_at_the_congress_of_europe_in_the_hague_7_may_1948-en-58118da1-af22-48c0-bc88-93cda974f42c.html

So yes I agree with you. Churchill refers to Europe as 'we' with Britain as an integral part of that 'we'. He clearly saw Britain playing a leading part in his idea of a United States of Europe.

[Bentley Bullet]

https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-7122-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926

[The Red Baron]

Interesting development if true.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1115343945838616576?p=v

[BillyStubbsTears]

Some fascinating data in the big YouGov Brexit poll published today.

This is the most depressing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1115161142798712832

So, the people most in favour of No Deal are not necessarily wilfully refusing to engage with the economic predictions that say No Deal would be horrific. They co sider themselves personally to be economically on Easy Street and so, presumably unconcerned by the negative effects.

Grand eh? "I'm alright Jack" in spades.

[SydneyRover]

If it was just a choice of the two I'd vote Conservative. I would never, ever vote for a party that has Diane Abbott in it. That in itself describes to me how out of touch Corbyn is so I wouldn't vote for a party with him in it either.

Sounds like there mat be a bit of jealousy there bb

Sydney, you've stopped quoting the latest score on that stupid petition. Come on man, keep up.

My apologies Steve, here you go:  6,070,698 signatures

Now did anyone bother to look at the map provided that shows how most of the poorer areas haven't voted while the more affluent areas have, showing to me at least that brexitcon was a protest vote not about pushing the self destruct button.

[Bentley Bullet]

f**king Hell, that's like 0.08% of the UK! Or, if you like, the whole population of Lebanon!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well, they do say the folk who currently support Brexit struggle with numbers...

[Bentley Bullet]

OK smart arse about 8.95% of the UK. Still only the population of Lebanon, and still a poll only declaring positive results.

[SydneyRover]

Just in: May wants to extend Article 50 by the projected population of Lebanon.

 6,070,797 signatures, vote runs to 20/08/2019.

 

[SydneyRover]

Some fascinating data in the big YouGov Brexit poll published today.

This is the most depressing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1115161142798712832

So, the people most in favour of No Deal are not necessarily wilfully refusing to engage with the economic predictions that say No Deal would be horrific. They co sider themselves personally to be economically on Easy Street and so, presumably unconcerned by the negative effects.

Grand eh? "I'm alright Jack" in spades.

From the data:

 Thread: We've done a UCL-YouGov, 5000+ UK voters – asked people to rank outcomes for Brexit. @HuffPostUK
 article here (link: https://bit.ly/2UGHgtK) bit.ly/2UGHgtK

Main pts: OVERALL, No Deal is LEAST preferred outcome (despite what ERG say), but it is the MOST preferred outcome for LEAVE voters. 1/6

People who didn’t vote leave are REALLY WORRIED about the impact of No Deal on the economy. But Leave voters are not only not that worried about No Deal – they are MORE worried about leaving with the Withdrawal Agreement. 2/6

But, among Leave Voters, support for No Deal is driven by those most likely to weather any economic downturn. Financially struggling Leave voters are MUCH MORE worried… it's not the "left behind" who really want No Deal... 3/6

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nay worries BB. What's the odd 100 times mistake among friends?

[SydneyRover]

Anyone for a change of heart?

''The much-mocked Project Fear Treasury forecasts are already proving correct: they warned a Brexit vote would mean households losing out by £4,300 by 2030. Households are already £1,500 worse off, and becoming poorer faster than forecast, in the worst era for growth since the 1860s, according to Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/08/britain-eu-brexit

[Boomstick]

AL
And THAT sums up the idiocy of quite a few Brexit supporters I've had the misfortune of interacting with.

Let's chuck ourselves into the problems and privations that you have no option but to face in a war because...Well because what? It feels like there are a lot of fragile egos around who feel themselves to be less of a man because they never had to face down an existential enemy in battle.

It's beyond stupid and beyond pathetic. Fortunately, there are far too many grown ups in the country to allow us to be tipped into this sort of juvenile fantasy land.

This is an existential threat to our nation. Do we go forward as a free nation or allow ourselves to become part of a United States of Europe which is not what we signed up for in the seventies?

Well you've reached an interesting cross-roads there because it was Winston Churchill himself who was one of the first to propose a 'United States of Europe'.

Did he really?
Well he also said. If we must choose between Europe and the open sea, we must choose the open sea. (the world)

[SydneyRover]

AL
And THAT sums up the idiocy of quite a few Brexit supporters I've had the misfortune of interacting with.

Let's chuck ourselves into the problems and privations that you have no option but to face in a war because...Well because what? It feels like there are a lot of fragile egos around who feel themselves to be less of a man because they never had to face down an existential enemy in battle.

It's beyond stupid and beyond pathetic. Fortunately, there are far too many grown ups in the country to allow us to be tipped into this sort of juvenile fantasy land.

This is an existential threat to our nation. Do we go forward as a free nation or allow ourselves to become part of a United States of Europe which is not what we signed up for in the seventies?

Well you've reached an interesting cross-roads there because it was Winston Churchill himself who was one of the first to propose a 'United States of Europe'.

Did he really?
Well he also said. If we must choose between Europe and the open sea, we must choose the open sea. (the world)

But did he vote for Brexit?

[IDM]

It matters not, what is happening now is happening in 2019, not 1949 or 1919..

[Bentley Bullet]

Nay worries BB. What's the odd 100 times mistake among friends?

I knew I shouldn't have read that Diane Abbott book of basic arithmetic I got for Christmas.