Track and Trace

[albie]

Hancock would have fallen on his sword by now if he had any self respect.

Prof Costello from IndieSage reckons Dildo was due to report tomorrow;
https://twitter.com/globalhlthtwit/status/1273600612723298305

Although the Google/Apple version is decentralized, which is good, there is still a big issue of the ownership of data.

Both of these companies are about as trustworthy as a wounded rattlesnake. Their business model is all about the monetisation of information.

With perfect timing, Google soil themselves in public;
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-alphabet-google-chrome-exclusive/exclusive-massive-spying-on-users-of-googles-chrome-shows-new-security-weakness-idUKKBN23P0JM

"If the thunder don't get you, then the lightning will"

[wilts rover]

It's interesting that at the presser Hancock said they had been running the two systems together (which is in direct conflict with what he told the Mirror & Guardian on 18th May when he said they were only working on the NHS one - but there you go).
https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1273659728292429824

So as the Google/Apple version is now up and running in countries and we have been trialing it for a month or so.....why wont it be in use here until winter?

[RobTheRover]

It's interesting that at the presser Hancock said they had been running the two systems together (which is in direct conflict with what he told the Mirror & Guardian on 18th May when he said they were only working on the NHS one - but there you go).
https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1273659728292429824

So as the Google/Apple version is now up and running in countries and we have been trialing it for a month or so.....why wont it be in use here until winter?

Erm... herd immunity.

[albie]

Response from IndieSage to the latest HanCockUp;
https://twitter.com/IndependentSage/status/1273711109384679432/photo/1

[SydneyRover]

I said a while back the best use for an app would be so you can identify a consevative voter and thank them for all this 

[BillyStubbsTears]

It seems to me that the development of systems to protect us from CV-19 is a classic example of where international collaboration could and should pay dividends. Instead, on PPE, on lockdown timing and now on this bloody app, we have insisted on a British Exceptionalism approach. We have proudly said "We are British and we know better than you." And we have called it wrong, every damn time.

This really ought to be a wake up call that goes beyond this crisis if we are to have a secure, safe and prosperous future. If we insist on wrapping ourselves in the flag, insisting we know best, then f**king up like this, there are more hard lessons to come this decade.

[SydneyRover]

Jimmy Wales is offering to roll out the German app free

If the NHS will to support it, I could roll out the German Corona-Warn-App (privacy respecting, official diagnosis rather than self-reporting as I understand it) in short time at zero cost to the taxpayer

https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/1273540187163852801?s=20

Its just a bit of false posturing though as the German App has only just been released and even the Germans don't trust it. As per the German Press;

Germany has launched a new app aimed at speedily tracking down new clusters of coronavirus infection as the country's lockdown is relaxed. However, Berlin may struggle to convince many Germans to sign up for the service.

Doesn't mean people in the UK wouldn't trust it plenty trust johnson

[Donnywolf]

....it begs the question (though most know the answer) just HOW BAD is failing Grayling if he is not considered good enough to get a place in this Cabinet ?

[SydneyRover]

Here's a handy list Wolf some all time favourites a bit like quality street without the quality 

Chris Grayling's failings: a catalogue of the former minister's errors

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/11/chris-graylings-failings-a-catalogue-of-the-former-ministers-errors

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting that the privately developed app wouldn't work but the Google/Apple supported one does, I wonder why that is....  Are these companies really that open and transparent as they make out?

[MachoMadness]

Just another example of Johnson's off-the-cuff vanity projects, isn't it? There are quite a few open-source apps out there we could have used quite easily. But no, we had to have a world-beating app of our own (that we just didn't have the capacity to develop).

[silent majority]

It seems to me that the development of systems to protect us from CV-19 is a classic example of where international collaboration could and should pay dividends. Instead, on PPE, on lockdown timing and now on this bloody app, we have insisted on a British Exceptionalism approach. We have proudly said "We are British and we know better than you." And we have called it wrong, every damn time.

This really ought to be a wake up call that goes beyond this crisis if we are to have a secure, safe and prosperous future. If we insist on wrapping ourselves in the flag, insisting we know best, then f**king up like this, there are more hard lessons to come this decade.

You see what really concerns me BST, for an intellectual like yourself, you do constantly make broad-brush statements based on your political viewpoint.

As I posted here in Reply #87

Re: Track and Trace
« Reply #87 on May 29, 2020, 02:24:35 PM by silent majority »

The evidence quite clearly shows that every country has developed their own T&T app, not just us. So every country has wrapped itself in its flag. Using the we're British we know best is not the simple action and stance you make it out to be.

And for those who have introduced a working app they've all been asking for more personal data than we would be happy giving up, apart from Germany possibly, who have also found a population that is wary of the governments intentions. Their historical position is however much more understandable.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SM. The fact is that we, pretty much alone in the world, went for the centralised data storage system. We went for a system that couldn't interface with the ones being developed in the EU. [1]

Just like we went for Herd Immunity when everyone else was locking down.

Just like we opted out of the EU co-ordinated PPE procurement and management system.

As I say, British Exceptionalism at every step. We know better don't we? Because we are British.

There's a theme here if you just join the dots.

[1] See here for example. https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/15/how-will-europes-coronavirus-contacts-tracing-apps-work-across-borders/

SM: What I do is to look at evidence and then form conclusions. You seem to think I form conclusions then go looking for evidence.

[silent majority]

SM. The fact is that we, pretty much alone in the world, went for the centralised data storage system. We went for a system that couldn't interface with the ones being developed in the EU. [1]

Just like we went for Herd Immunity when everyone else was locking down.

Just like we opted out of the EU co-ordinated PPE procurement and management system.

As I say, British Exceptionalism at every step. We know better don't we? Because we are British.

There's a theme here if you just join the dots.

[1] See here for example. https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/15/how-will-europes-coronavirus-contacts-tracing-apps-work-across-borders/

SM: What I do is to look at evidence and then form conclusions. You seem to think I form conclusions then go looking for evidence.

But you've just answered a question that I didn't ask.

The link I posted quite clearly showed that all countries, pretty much without exception, created their own version of a T&T app, therefore wrapping themselves up in their flag, something that you chose to highlight in a negative way about the UK.

Its disappointing, of course it is, but the UK version of an app did have some merit that was worth pursuing, maybe not at the expense of screwing up this badly, but it still had merit.

And yes, I do think you go looking for evidence to support your position, and then you use simplistic versions of whatever argument you have to do the same. You're not alone in that, quite a few posters on here wake up in the morning and go searching for evidence of something new that supports their standpoint, and then totally ignore anything that contradicts that.
 

[albie]

Apple now socially distancing from Hancock and his explanation yesterday;
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53105642

[BillyStubbsTears]

SM

The EU has gone about this in a co-ordinated way which means that all their apps have a common and compatible structure. That means that they will work when people move across borders. Yes they developed them in each country, but there has been an agreed underpinning approach.

We, alone in Europe chose to go a different way.

I don't understand what you are arguing about.

[silent majority]

SM

The EU has gone about this in a co-ordinated way which means that all their apps have a common and compatible structure. That means that they will work when people move across borders. Yes they developed them in each country, but there has been an agreed underpinning approach.

We, alone in Europe chose to go a different way.

I don't understand what you are arguing about.

BST, we're still arguing about this because you fail to acknowledge the point other people make and then fail to read the material they link to. All you do is put up links that support your point.

However, I never realised that Europe was the rest of the world. I pointed out to you that other countries had developed their own apps, something you claimed that we 'wrapped our selves in the flag' and did something different to everybody else. That is quite clearly not true!

The article I linked to, (from MIT I hasten to add) which you haven't acknowledged, talks about the development of over 150 different apps, all with their own inbuilt idiosyncrasies, both centralised and de-centralised, Bluetooth and GPS operations. Yet you still seem to think we acted alone, we didn't. Even Germany started out using a centralised version and then did a massive u-turn. No mention of that I see. Or that Norway opted for a centralised version as well.

But I did read what you linked to, and the evidence in there is pretty damning! You've taken what that article says and used it as evidence to support your claim, which is a nonsense. That article talks about a wish list for interoperability, and then talks about the difficulty of doing so. It does not claim that the rest of the EU have a cross border system up and running. This taken from the article;

European users should be able to expect interoperability. But whether smooth cross-border working will happen in practice remains a major question mark. Getting multiple different health systems and apps that might be calculating risk exposure in slightly different ways to interface and share the relevant bits of data in a secure way is itself a major operational and technical challenge.
However, this is made even more of a headache given ongoing differences between countries over the core choice of app architecture for their national coronavirus contact tracing.

And this;

One person familiar with EU Member States’ discussions about coronavirus-tracing apps and interoperability, who briefed TechCrunch on condition of anonymity, also suggested the DESIRE proposal would not fly given its relative complexity (versus the pressing need to get apps launched soon if they are to be of any use in the current pandemic). This person also pointed to question marks over required bandwidth and impact on device battery life. For DESIRE to work they suggested it would need universal uptake by all Europe’s governments — and every EU nation agreeing to adopt a French proposal would hardly carry the torch for nation state sovereignty.


Now, I dont know what you're arguing about.
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

SM.

I'm happy to accept that I went overboard in saying that we alone in the world had gone for a centralised data storage app. Retracted.

That doesn't in any way detract from the actual substantive point I've been making.

I'm saying there is a pattern to our behaviour. The three-month long refusal to use a system that could tie into an EU-wide effort to develop cross-border functionality is part of a consistent and deliberate policy of forging our own path. It is clearly ideologically driven. Given that we have a Govt whose one and only raison d'etre (sic) is to divorce us from the EU, they couldn't then be seen to be taking part in EU-wide initiatives to fight CV-19.

By the way, those problems on getting a common pan-EU app architecture that you pointed out. Here's the update.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2020/06/16/eu-states-agree-a-tech-spec-for-national-coronavirus-apps-to-work-across-borders/amp/

That's what happens when countries work collaboratively rather than insist on their own Exceptionalism.

And by the way. Norway's courts blocked the development of their app a few days ago.

[silent majority]

BST,

Thank you. That was the point I've been making all along, and no more than that. I certainly wasn't arguing your alternative point about exceptionalism.

But I have read the update that you provided, and it seems this is still pretty much a wish list and doesn't automatically exclude the UK. I didn't realise by the way that France had opted for a centralised system, hardly embracing the EU approach! It appears that even with this tech spec issued they are a long way from achieving the benefits of this common approach you've promoted;

Even decentralized national apps aren’t able to exchange relevant data yet, though. The interoperability architecture’s gateway interface still needs to be deployed — and national apps launched and/or updated before all the relevant pieces can start talking. So there’s a way to go before any digital contacts tracing is working smoothly across European borders.

It seems it's still ambitious, and hardly around the corner. Suffice to say it may be too late to the party.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Agreed SM but the point is that they are attempting it. We have just opted out of that effort. In uncertain times like this, you throw as many balls in the air as you can and hope some land in the right places.

The interesting thing will be to see whether we sign up to the EU approach now that we've finally ditched the scheme developed by Dom's mate and gone for an architecture that is compatible in principle with the EU approach.

[albie]

Back to your corners, once the bell rings!

MIT tech review has produced a more recent article;
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/06/19/1004190/uk-covid-contact-tracing-app-fiasco/

Unfortunately, the writer has not understood the different role of the NHS and the private contractors supposedly offering a service, amongst other considerations.

Better piece in Wired, IMO;
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-tracing-app-scrapped-apple-google-uk

[silent majority]

Its a question of waiting I suppose, but early users of app based technology are not reporting any kind of success. I was as hopeful as everybody else that this particular technology would be the modern way of defeating an old enemy, it appears it may not be the case. Singapore, one of, if not the first, adopter of app based tracing has reported that its been a failure.

This from today's report on the BBC site seems to sum it up;

Meanwhile, there is scant proof from anywhere around the world that smartphone apps using Bluetooth are an effective method of contact tracing. Back in March, it seemed that the hugely powerful devices most of us carry with us might help us emerge from this health crisis. Now it looks as though a human being on the end of a phone is a far better option.

[SydneyRover]

Wot if everyone wore name tags and had bodycam 

[silent majority]

And just to add, are we happy that 2 of the USA's technological giants have so much influence on what we can, and cannot, roll out in terms of health based solutions?

[Not Now Kato]

How many more lies is this government going to perpetrate?
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642

[albie]

And just to add, are we happy that 2 of the USA's technological giants have so much influence on what we can, and cannot, roll out in terms of health based solutions?

No....but if Apple will not allow the UK app to access the tech they own, then it is dead in the water as a tool to monitor infections using that platform.

The truth is that to get the breadth of coverage required, the power is held by the proprietors of the technology platform.

This means that any downstream re-purpose of the data, or backdoors in the operating tech, are in the gift of the US tech giants, subject to US law (such as it is).

[silent majority]

How many more lies is this government going to perpetrate?
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642

Surely that's a bit of hair splitting by Apple?

Maybe not directly with the government but with the NHS provider most definitely.

[Not Now Kato]

How many more lies is this government going to perpetrate?
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642

Surely that's a bit of hair splitting by Apple?

Maybe not directly with the government but with the NHS provider most definitely.

https://postimg.cc/njtVTj6X

[Donnywolf]

Wot if everyone wore name tags and had bodycam 

Grant Shapps did when he had denied being part of a huge get rich quick Company - because he couldnt have another job when he became an MP

He denied being Michael Green flatly denied it in fact - then someone at a seminar took his photo and have a guess what HIS badge said. Yup correct

He is of course a Cabinet Minister now (still) so no surprise there. I like the quote (someone will remember it) when challenged he said he hadnt lied but probably over firmed his denial (not right but he is not worth looking up). He had other names as well. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/15/grant-shapps-admits-he-had-second-job-as-millioniare-web-marketer-while-mp

[Donnywolf]

I couldnt help it


However, in March 2015, Shapps admitted to having had a second job whilst being an MP, and practising business under a pseudonym. In his admission, he stated that he had "over-firmly denied" having a second job.

How can anybody this corrupt be in the Government - he should be nearer a Jail than a Cabinet posting

Over firmly denying Johnson sounds too cumbersone so I will stick to Liar Johnson for now