JCH

[silent majority]

I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad

Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?

Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now

Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.

Ok Martin, could you tell us what the wage bill was when we got promoted under SoD and under Saunders, compared to now?

Who mentioned SoD and Saunders? He said two seasons ago.

I mentioned them. Just wanted to gauge direction of travel over a longer period of time.

But that's a different subject entirely and is irrelevant to the post I made in response to Dickov's post, something he and I have debated in the past.

To answer your question though, and without digging through my records to find the information, I can just offer this. The playing budget is usually related to the league that you are in because its based on income. When we were in the Championship with SoD we had, for us, a large playing budget. When Saunders inherited the squad and then added to it with McKay's cast off's the playing budget ballooned beyond all recognition. Yet we were relegated.

The following season we had a good budget for LG1 and were promoted again. The budget went up again but ended up with relegation. Again we had a LG1 budget, but managed to get relegated and ended up in LG2 were we kept our LG1 budget and bought our way out of LG2. Since then we've had a pretty similar budget year on year, with increases reflecting our growing commercial income and the consistent funding from the Watson/Bramall ownership.

Does that answer your question?

[DearneValleyRover]

I’d be surprised if he’s on 7k a week. L1 footballers don’t earn as much as you think.

You can only go on what information is given by fans of the club he’s at, Bristol fans are claiming he was on £5k a week and that Posh are paying more. It might all be guess work just passing on what I have seen.

[dickos1]

I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad

Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?

Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now

Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.

I’m not doing that at all Martin.
Even if all the contracted players were on the same money then it’s an obvious fact that 2 years ago the wage bill was higher just due to the fact we had many more contracted players on the books.

[ravenrover]

And that was how I read your post - welcome back

[silent majority]

I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad

Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?

Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now

Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.

I’m not doing that at all Martin.
Even if all the contracted players were on the same money then it’s an obvious fact that 2 years ago the wage bill was higher just due to the fact we had many more contracted players on the books.

When we debated this before you used the quality of the player as your argument that our budget had been reduced.

Now you're using the amount of contracted players, which is a bit like licking your finger and sticking it in the air, its just guesswork. But my question is how can you do that? At what point in the season do you count the number of contracted players, at the beginning, mid season, end of season? To be fair its all irrelevant, what matters is the numbers in the accounts, that's the arbiter for knowing whether our budget has been reduced or not.

Welcome back by the way!

[ravenrover]

I hate to say it but you are looking at the post from the wrong angle SM or is it that you are just happy to carry on a little feud with the poster?

[Chris Black come back]

I know we are living through a post-truth Trump/Boris age where you can say any old rubbish and get away with it - but this entire argument comes down to the singular point that does the manager have available to him a budget to spend on players that has been reducing over recent seasons.

However, unless someone has access to how much spending power Gavin has allotted Ferguson, McCann and Moore respectively, it is just a discussion over what people think is the case, not what is actually the case. Just saying what you think you see on the pitch and extrapolating this to the budget as a whole is a personal view, not fact.

[Campsall rover]

We now have a wage cap for Players with new contracts don’t we?

So this seasons budget will possibly be reduced but not necessarily.
It’s all supposition isn’t it. We don’t know what each individual player is on at DRFC.
Are existing contracts above or below the new threshold. We don’t know.

So what’s the problem? Does it matter. No it doesn’t imo. As long as we are competitive and DM has a budget he can comfortably work with ( unlike DF  ) then thats all that matters. Isn’t it?

When all the old contracts run out we will have a level playing field throughout the league. Hallelujahs to that.

[dickos1]

I know we are living through a post-truth Trump/Boris age where you can say any old rubbish and get away with it - but this entire argument comes down to the singular point that does the manager have available to him a budget to spend on players that has been reducing over recent seasons.

However, unless someone has access to how much spending power Gavin has allotted Ferguson, McCann and Moore respectively, it is just a discussion over what people think is the case, not what is actually the case. Just saying what you think you see on the pitch and extrapolating this to the budget as a whole is a personal view, not fact.

Well no, not really.
I’ve not mentioned the budget, I’m speaking specifically about the number of contracted players we have in comparison to what we had 2/3 years ago.
It’s a fact that in August before the start of the 2017/18 season we had a significant higher number of contracted players.
It’s not guesswork to realise this means the wage bill was larger then.
That was my only point, nothing to do with anything you’ve come back with

[dickos1]

I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad

Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?

Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now

Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.

I’m not doing that at all Martin.
Even if all the contracted players were on the same money then it’s an obvious fact that 2 years ago the wage bill was higher just due to the fact we had many more contracted players on the books.

When we debated this before you used the quality of the player as your argument that our budget had been reduced.

Now you're using the amount of contracted players, which is a bit like licking your finger and sticking it in the air, its just guesswork. But my question is how can you do that? At what point in the season do you count the number of contracted players, at the beginning, mid season, end of season? To be fair its all irrelevant, what matters is the numbers in the accounts, that's the arbiter for knowing whether our budget has been reduced or not.

Welcome back by the way!

I’m just comparing like for like,
August to August.
Yes this year is unusual with what’s going on but we have reduced our squad quite significantly over the last 2/3 years.
Player quality is down to opinion, obviously. But we had Experienced players throughout the squad in every position, player who undoubtedly would’ve been on good wages.
Now we have a very good starting 11 in my opinion, as we did last season too, but the squad isn’t big enough in my opinion to compete throughout the season, were always only 2 injuries away from struggling

[Chris Black come back]

There is no need for discord over this. Just needs putting in perspective and then everyone can move on.

What would be accurate to say is: “In my view, although I am not privy to the actual underlying official information, is that the wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had. My opinion is that this is correct because if you look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players, there is a disparity, in my own view.”

That would to most reasonable and sentient people be a fairly constructed statement, rather than tilting at windmills without evidence.

[sha66y]

I just don’t get the context of this thread....why does it matter what the club does with its finances?

The product served up is very good regardless of costs....

and we minions only have to fork out a bit each week/fortnight, I guess there’s just no preseason without these mind boggling threads

[dickos1]

There is no need for discord over this. Just needs putting in perspective and then everyone can move on.

What would be accurate to say is: “In my view, although I am not privy to the actual underlying official information, is that the wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had. My opinion is that this is correct because if you look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players, there is a disparity, in my own view.”

That would to most reasonable and sentient people be a fairly constructed statement, rather than tilting at windmills without evidence.

The evidence is the number of contracted players for the 2017/18 season compared to the number of contracted players we have now.
The disparity is a fact.

That’s my only point, I’ve no idea what you’re drivelling on about.
It’s not my opinion that we have less contracted players now than we did then, it’s a fact

[drfc1951]

There is no need for discord over this. Just needs putting in perspective and then everyone can move on.

What would be accurate to say is: “In my view, although I am not privy to the actual underlying official information, is that the wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had. My opinion is that this is correct because if you look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players, there is a disparity, in my own view.”

That would to most reasonable and sentient people be a fairly constructed statement, rather than tilting at windmills without evidence.

The evidence is the number of contracted players for the 2017/18 season compared to the number of contracted players we have now.
The disparity is a fact.

That’s my only point, I’ve no idea what you’re drivelling on about.
It’s not my opinion that we have less contracted players now than we did then, it’s a fact

Does it fxxxing matter

[Chris Black come back]

There is no need for discord over this. Just needs putting in perspective and then everyone can move on.

What would be accurate to say is: “In my view, although I am not privy to the actual underlying official information, is that the wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had. My opinion is that this is correct because if you look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players, there is a disparity, in my own view.”

That would to most reasonable and sentient people be a fairly constructed statement, rather than tilting at windmills without evidence.

The evidence is the number of contracted players for the 2017/18 season compared to the number of contracted players we have now.
The disparity is a fact.

That’s my only point, I’ve no idea what you’re drivelling on about.
It’s not my opinion that we have less contracted players now than we did then, it’s a fact

No, that's not right - but we can easily correct this dissembling and put the issue to bed for the season.

There is the number of contracted players. That is yes, a fact.

Then there is this statement: "The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had."

That statement is an assertion - an assertion you believe to be true - but you don't have the actual evidence to present it as fact. The number of contracted players might be lower (I don't know) but could be quantified easily I guess, but you cannot state as fact the wage bill on contracted players is "significantly less" - unless you want to bring forward the figures for this.

Long season ahead, lots to look forward to, maybe even some more spending on contracted players to cheer you up!

[Janso]

I don't understand the obsession with the wage bill. Sunderland's probably dwarfs ours, and yet for the third season running, they'll be playing in the same division.

[sha66y]

I don't understand the obsession with the wage bill. Sunderland's probably dwarfs ours, and yet for the third season running, they'll be playing in the same division.

Dickos gets this itch every year and won’t let it heal....

I personally think he is OCD but then again.......who isn’t

[idler]

If you have fifteen players and it works out at £1 million then you would expect to have better players than if the total for 20 players was the same.
We don't know how much the individual players are on.
I would imagine that Ben Whiteman was offered a significant amount to extend his contract maybe taking one or two lesser players out of the equation and budget.
Let's just appreciate the team that we have.

[Campsall rover]

If you have fifteen players and it works out at £1 million then you would expect to have better players than if the total for 20 players was the same.
We don't know how much the individual players are on.
I would imagine that Ben Whiteman was offered a significant amount to extend his contract maybe taking one or two lesser players out of the equation and budget.
Let's just appreciate the team that we have.

Your dead right Idler.

There are some who are obsessed with the budget.
It’s not that important, it helps of course, it gives a head start. It also creates extra pressure, look at Sunderland.
Wycombe last season i would imagine had one of the smallest budgets in league 1. Look where they are now.

What’s important, really important is the mindset, the coaching ability and man management of the manager & coaching staff. The team spirit, togetherness of the whole squad, work ethic, coupled with a never say die attitude.

All that together gives you a far better chance of promotion than having one of the biggest budgets and none or few of those qualities required.

[Michael Gibson]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m sure player bonuses are not included in the wage cap, therefore it’s open to abuse, I.e for every goal the team scores you’ll get an extra 2k a week or whatever.

[IDM]

I thought they are included.?

[dknward2]

Bonuses are included I had the same thought.

[vaya]

"Basic wages, taxes, bonuses, image rights and agents fees"

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/explained-how-new-squad-salary-caps-league-one-will-affect-clubs-including-doncaster-rovers-2936369

[Michael Gibson]

Sound.

[dickos1]

If you have fifteen players and it works out at £1 million then you would expect to have better players than if the total for 20 players was the same.
We don't know how much the individual players are on.
I would imagine that Ben Whiteman was offered a significant amount to extend his contract maybe taking one or two lesser players out of the equation and budget.
Let's just appreciate the team that we have.

Your dead right Idler.

There are some who are obsessed with the budget.
It’s not that important, it helps of course, it gives a head start. It also creates extra pressure, look at Sunderland.
Wycombe last season i would imagine had one of the smallest budgets in league 1. Look where they are now.

What’s important, really important is the mindset, the coaching ability and man management of the manager & coaching staff. The team spirit, togetherness of the whole squad, work ethic, coupled with a never say die attitude.

All that together gives you a far better chance of promotion than having one of the biggest budgets and none or few of those qualities required.

I would tend to disagree, martin, gavin etc have always maintained that the budget almost always reflects the league table.
And I’d tend to agree with them.
There’s always exceptions to the rule of course

[silent majority]

Squad Salary Cap

 A Squad Salary Cap for each Division at the following levels:

o League One - £2.5m
o League Two - £1.5m

 An Overrun Concept is included where a Club’s total squad salary payments exceed the Cap by up to 5%.

 There will be a blanket exclusion on those Players that are Under 21 Years whether they are a temporary loan or permanent.

 Agent fees are included within the Squad Salary Cap and therefore linked to each Player.

 A Football Fortune concept has been incorporated to acknowledge income received and bonuses incurred as a result of a successful Cup run:

o Cup bonuses will be included as a separate football fortune schedule and measured against the Cup Income that the Club generates each season.
o Any Cup surplus or deficit in that Season will be added to the Salary Cap calculation. This includes all Cup competitions including the end of Season Play offs.
o Promotion Bonuses are to be excluded from the Cap.
o Player Sales are not allowable – Due to the potentially significant value of transfer fees and the distortional impact this could have on a Club’s Cap.
o No carry forward will be allowed - For simplicity, is it proposed that Fortune Income will only be included in a Club’s Calculation in relation to the Season in which it was earned.

 A strict set of Sanction guidelines will be drafted (incorporating points deductions) for Disciplinary Panel consideration if a Club is found to have complied with the Rules only through deliberate non-disclosure of accurate information and/or misleading information, or if it has exceeded the Overrun Allowance.

Salary Cap Rules

• Squad Salary Cap (“the Cap”) of £2.5m (Transitional allowances outlined below).
• Under 21 Players are excluded from the Cap whether they are a temporary loan or permanent.
• The Cap would include total salary (including taxes, bonuses, image rights, agents’ fees, and other fees and expenses) paid directly or indirectly to all Registered Players (Permanent and Loans).
• Payments directly linked to a Club’s progression in cup competitions or promotion are excluded from the Cap.
• Any income generated from Players going out on Loan would be deducted from the relevant Player’s Salary to be included within the Club’s Squad Salary Cap Calculation.
• Under 24 Players can be offered contract extensions/new contract terms as long as they are not at a higher Salary and be maintained at the Divisional Average Cap (if relevant) to protect Compensation rights.

• An ‘Overrun’ concept is included if a Club’s total squad salary payments exceed the Cap by up to 5% to acknowledge that, for example, a Club’s achievements (not promotion) may result in bonus payments in excess of their original budget.

o An Overrun Tax is then be payable on a staggered basis up to £3 for every £1 overspend.
o Clubs exceeding the Overrun would be referred to an Independent Disciplinary Commission.

• The EFL would monitor the Cap on a Real-Time basis throughout the Season.
• A strict set of Sanction guidelines will be drafted (incorporating further fines and points deductions) for Disciplinary Panel consideration if a Club is found to be in breach or to have only complied with the Rules, e.g. through deliberate non-disclosure of accurate information and/or misleading information.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Any idea S_M on how clubs will be audited, frequency etc, and whether compliance results will be published in the public domain?

[silent majority]

Any idea S_M on how clubs will be audited, frequency etc, and whether compliance results will be published in the public domain?

Not yet, that's still part of the detail, but I will ask. It won't ever be in the public domain though, I can't see the members voting for that one!

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Any idea S_M on how clubs will be audited, frequency etc, and whether compliance results will be published in the public domain?

Not yet, that's still part of the detail, but I will ask. It won't ever be in the public domain though, I can't see the members voting for that one!

Cheers S_M. I notice they say it will be monitored on a real time basis. I think it would be prudent given its introduction the EFL make some form of statement, maybe when the transfer window closes that confirms all clubs are compliant, unless of course they issue a statement about any specific disciplinaries due to breaches etc.

[drfchound]

Where's Toney gone?

Brentford for £10m (£6m with clauses) seemed to be the shout. Not gone yet.

Where is all this money coming from. Brentford paying 10m !!! although Celtic seem favourites as far as i can see.
I know Brentford have wealthy owners but that’s insane. Is Toney worth that sort of money?  Only time will tell.
He hasn’t played at a high level before. Wigan on loan, a few games in the Championship.

Massive gamble at that sort of money.

Peterborough will be well set up with that sort of money. McAnthony’s pockets will be burning.
Let’s see if DF is the man to take them to where McAnthony wants them to go.

Very much doubt it myself. Let’s see.

Mmmmmm, it seems as though Toney has had a good start to the season.
Seven goals in six matches.
At 71 minutes per goal he easily has the best scoring rate in the Championship.