Brexit Dividend

[SydneyRover]

Yep, if only someone had spoken up!

''A late plea for voters to back the remain option in this week’s EU referendum has been issued by 1,285 business leaders who say in a letter to The Times that Brexit would damage Britain’s economy''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/1200-business-leaders-back-remain-eu-referendum-vote

[Branton Red]

Branton
You make a long list again that misses my point.

My point being that literally no-one said before the vote that leaving with no deal should be our chosen policy. When the Remain side said that was a possibility, they were shouted down as Project Fear.

Yet within days of the vote, a prominent Leave campaigner, Richard Rice, said we should aim for that. Within months Govt policy was to throw that in the table as something we could accept that as a position. By 2019, we had Parliament closed down specifically so the Govt could embrace it, despite a deal being clearly available.

My point is that this demolishes the argument that what was said in the campaign in any way tied the hands of anyone after the vote. Either legally or morally. What we did after the vote was a matter of political choice. You accept that because it was the outcome you wanted. Don't try to claim it was inevitable.

A long list which is a sad indictment of the untruthfulness inherent in your position.

See point 10 on making false comparatives.

It was never Government policy to pursue no deal. It was policy to keep the threat of no deal on the table in order to obtain the best possible deal. As you well know.

We have proven (myself through fact yourself through omission) that the public were told by both sides explicitly, implicitly and by dint of the framing of the debate that a leave vote would entail leaving the SM. So this is not about what I want but what the public were clearly and unarguably told. Leaving the SM was not legally enforceable true but don't try to claim there was no democratic, and therefore moral, mandate for it just because it's not what you want.

[Branton Red]

"Branton Red still ignores Leave.EU printed campaign manifesto double shocker!"

Published in Jan 2016; dumped in Feb 2016 when Grassroots Out manifesto superceded on it; never campaigned on by any leading figure - certainly not during the official campaign period.

Think it deserves ignoring.

Still not found any evidence for anyone saying a leave vote didn't necessarily involve leaving the SM during the Brexit campaign?

Your argument is dead in the water

Greenshoots Out was a completely separate organisation: anything they published could not supercede anything published by another organisation.

Leave.EU's manifesto was not withdrawn, it was still extant during the whole campaign........

......... and nobody campaigned on it.

Still not found any evidence for anyone saying a leave vote didn't necessarily involve leaving the SM during the Brexit campaign?

Your argument is dead in the water

[selby]

  Happy Brexit anniversary day everybody, the most important day of your lives, its the day that made you what you are, can you remember being happy?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well Branton, we're clearly not going to agree on this. You think that the vote mandated us to withdraw from the SM and CU and that was a red line. I don't.

I guess we are going to have to agree to di....

Hang on a minute though. Do you recall the precise wording on the ballot paper?

[Ldr]

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

Given the SM and CU are part of the Eu the inference is leaving the Meant leaving it’s schemes by defeat. Regardless of what people hoped for in negotiating an exit deal.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Thanks Ldr.

"United Kingdom". Not "Great Britain".

[BillyStubbsTears]

Point being, the UK left the EU, but the UK didn't leave the SM and CU. GB did...

[Ldr]

Geographically accurate

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think you mean "accurate".

[BillyStubbsTears]

Point being (at the risk of someone once again accusing me of being condescending for saying it, because it really ought o be bleeding obvious) Branton's insistence that leaving the SM and CU was non-negotiably decided once we voted to Leave, and there was no way that could possibly be entertained as an option is not just wrong in principle - we actually DID leave a part of the UK in the SM and CU!

[wilts rover]

Happy Brexit Day and congratulations to all our Brexiteers for the benefits they have brought us.

In other news the OBR (thats the offical Tory government budget forecasters) confirmed that is still expects us to loose 4% of GDP per year (£100 billion per year) every year.

As our contrbution to the EU was roughly £13 billion per year that means Johnson's Brexit Deal is set to cost the country £87 BILLION per year, every year, for the foreseable future.

Have a great day.

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1539993719440547842

[tyke1962]

 The Labour Party have announced through David Lammy they will not seek to rejoin the SM or Euro bloc as of half n hour ago .

[drfchound]

Can’t be true tyke, they wouldn’t announce a policy plan this far ahead of a GE.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Point being (at the risk of someone once again accusing me of being condescending for saying it, because it really ought o be bleeding obvious) Branton's insistence that leaving the SM and CU was non-negotiably decided once we voted to Leave, and there was no way that could possibly be entertained as an option is not just wrong in principle - we actually DID leave a part of the UK in the SM and CU!

So Boris didn't 'get Brexit done'! He's betrayed the Referendum result. According to Branton's weird logic, anyway.

[tyke1962]

Can’t be true tyke, they wouldn’t announce a policy plan this far ahead of a GE.

And they still haven't Hound in reality , they voted for Johnson's deal .

[Glyn_Wigley]

They voted for his lies.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The Labour Party have announced through David Lammy they will not seek to rejoin the SM or Euro bloc as of half n hour ago .

Is there more to it than this?  Doesn't seem to amount to much.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/23/labour-unveil-plans-to-seek-limited-changes-to-brexit-deal

[SydneyRover]

None other than David Frost doesn't have a clue

[normal rules]

The Labour Party have announced through David Lammy they will not seek to rejoin the SM or Euro bloc as of half n hour ago .

That could be an issue once there is a coalition Lib Dem/ Labour govt.

[danumdon]

The Labour Party have announced through David Lammy they will not seek to rejoin the SM or Euro bloc as of half n hour ago .

Is there more to it than this?  Doesn't seem to amount to much.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/23/labour-unveil-plans-to-seek-limited-changes-to-brexit-deal

Is this Labours start to try to instil into the electorate some  sort of admission that they were wrong to tie the hands of the government during the brexit negotiations with the Benn bill ?

Could be i suppose or it could just be DL demonstrating to the whole country how duplicitous and hypocritical someone can be, when you remember some of the things this man was going to do to ensure the will of the people would be trampled upon.

Labour breaks ground with a policy anouncment, how long will this one last before Keith decides to ignore it?

[Ldr]

The Labour Party have announced through David Lammy they will not seek to rejoin the SM or Euro bloc as of half n hour ago .

Is there more to it than this?  Doesn't seem to amount to much.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/23/labour-unveil-plans-to-seek-limited-changes-to-brexit-deal

Thoughts and prayers to BST

[drfchound]

The Labour Party have announced through David Lammy they will not seek to rejoin the SM or Euro bloc as of half n hour ago .

Is there more to it than this?  Doesn't seem to amount to much.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/23/labour-unveil-plans-to-seek-limited-changes-to-brexit-deal

Thoughts and prayers to BST

 

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Labour Party have announced through David Lammy they will not seek to rejoin the SM or Euro bloc as of half n hour ago .

Is there more to it than this?  Doesn't seem to amount to much.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/23/labour-unveil-plans-to-seek-limited-changes-to-brexit-deal

Thoughts and prayers to BST

No need. I'm not advocating for us to rejoin the SM and CU yet. We WILL do, one day, but only when the economic pain has hurt enough people for long enough to make them see sense. That'll be a decade or more.

My arguments in this thread have been on the theme that this never needed to have happened in the first place, not that it should be reversed now it has happened.

[danumdon]

So in effect your thinking is.

I want a Labour government installed in 2024,

They will not be able to enact any policy that will reverse your belief that leaving the SM and CU had created.

They will need over a decade to undo all the polices in place that the Tories have implemented and bring forward coherent and workable policies that will enable this country to decide that being back in the SM and CU is worth the effort.

Why would we be voting for another decade and more of regurgitated upheaval after this last one, that MAY put us in a position we were last in two decades ago?

Is this going to be your selling point going forwards, are you expecting the country to vote for that!!

[SydneyRover]

I have spoken against those saying johnson is a gift for labour as it's not good for the country. But as has already been said a new leader wouldn't have much truck with the residue and the bench looks well underdone, so the country will go on being led by donkeys. Stay or go I don't think it matters much, roll on the election.

[wilts rover]

So in effect your thinking is.

I want a Labour government installed in 2024,

They will not be able to enact any policy that will reverse your belief that leaving the SM and CU had created.

They will need over a decade to undo all the polices in place that the Tories have implemented and bring forward coherent and workable policies that will enable this country to decide that being back in the SM and CU is worth the effort.

Why would we be voting for another decade and more of regurgitated upheaval after this last one, that MAY put us in a position we were last in two decades ago?

Is this going to be your selling point going forwards, are you expecting the country to vote for that!!

Do you think Labour should campaign to reverse Brexit DD? Or do you agree with their current position to honour the Brexit vote?

[SydneyRover]

middle stump that one!

[danumdon]

So in effect your thinking is.

I want a Labour government installed in 2024,

They will not be able to enact any policy that will reverse your belief that leaving the SM and CU had created.

They will need over a decade to undo all the polices in place that the Tories have implemented and bring forward coherent and workable policies that will enable this country to decide that being back in the SM and CU is worth the effort.

Why would we be voting for another decade and more of regurgitated upheaval after this last one, that MAY put us in a position we were last in two decades ago?

Is this going to be your selling point going forwards, are you expecting the country to vote for that!!

Do you think Labour should campaign to reverse Brexit DD? Or do you agree with their current position to honour the Brexit vote?

Like others have said, that ship has sailed and it would be in no parties interest to campaign to reverse anything.

What they should do now is to work to achieve the best possible outcome from the decision taken, if the Labour party had spent the last parliament working to ensure we had the very best outcome from the negotiations instead of running to Brussels and in effect sabotaging everything that could be achieved from leaving the SM and CU we would be in a very much stronger position now.

As to their "current position to honour the Brexit vote" means a great many different things to different people. If they win the next GE they have in effect made their task a great deal harder to implement meaningful and sustainable change due to their weasel words and actions during the negotiations.

Smokescreen to enable a large enough voting swing comes to mind before wholesale changes to their policy.

How many people could trust Starmer?

[idler]

A lot more than would trust Boris.