Gas Prices

[rich1471]

£400 is not a lot when most gas and electric bills have gone up by £2000 since January ,that are also doubling the standing charge as well to about £300 a year last year 2021 my standing charge was £37 ,I was paying 10p per day in October it will be 90p per day , I am paying £190 a month when it goes up I am not paying anymore ,they can just put me in dept , It is not even be a case of not affording it, it the case of the robbing bxxdards just making more and more money .

[BobG]

And  lots to be paid out as dividends to those with the cash to buy shares.... Which party do they tend to vote for? Oh. Wait a minute!

BobG

[albie]

Hound,

It is very welcome short term, but the bottom line is continued increases in energy costs.
Essentially, the levy takes short term excess profit, redistributes it to the low income groups, then takes that money back over a longer time frame as higher energy costs are baked in to higher consumer bills.

It is a 91p in the £ subsidy to the energy sector to invest in fossil fuels...that is the real point here.

I would ignore the media commentariat, they don't have a clue when it involves a detailed long range impact.

[drfchound]

Yes albie, I recognise that it is a short term measure but it is still welcome never the less.
Energy prices may fall next year but no one knows for sure so I feel confident that the situation will be reviewed then.

[selby]

  Bob, those small share owners have had a hard time of it for a couple of years some losing quite a lot on their share value when there was no clamour to hit any oil and gas companies.
  Also the big share owners apart from very few big individual share owners are the pension companies, so basically your quite happy to hit the small guy when for once there share income has been good after a few bad years and pensioners, and tar them with being the elite who want hammering.
  Royal Dutch Shell is now domiciled in London for the last few years because the Dutch government taxed them too highly and it was prudent to move headquarters over here and pay taxes here, they would not be here under a Labour Government, or some of the other big companies to take a hit, and people like you would be expected to just suck eggs, they emptied the coffers the last time, and we all have a poorer pension because of the hit they took off Brown. 

[selby]

  By the way we are a net exporter of energy to the EU at the moment replacing some of their dependence on Russia I suppose and the outages for repair of so many nuclear power stations in France. Notice their threats of power supplies to Jersey and the fishing problem has died a death for the time being

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

And  lots to be paid out as dividends to those with the cash to buy shares.... Which party do they tend to vote for? Oh. Wait a minute!

BobG

Nothing wrong with shares or dividends. We need to get away from that mentality.

[SydneyRover]

Importer or exporter of petroleum products UK to 2013

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=16971#:~:text=For%20almost%20a%20decade%2C%20the,exporter%20of%20refined%20petroleum%20products.

[SydneyRover]

And  lots to be paid out as dividends to those with the cash to buy shares.... Which party do they tend to vote for? Oh. Wait a minute!

BobG

Nothing wrong with shares or dividends. We need to get away from that mentality.

That's quite true pud, but if the government via policy wants people to own shares as part of its plan to support pensioners and then drives its political agenda to support business at almost any cost to maintain its vote is that fair?

I wonder how many of the millions forced to accept welfare and use foodbanks own shares?

And further to this (there's always more, aye pud)

Nothing wrong with paying tax We need to get away from that mentality.

The government needs to be honest about why it wants to project an image of being a lower taxing gov't even though it isn't.

It needs to be honest and say 'we the tories don't want want to pay for the NHS, education, police, utilities, public transport, roads and anything else required for the country to maintain services, we want a user pays system and if you can't afford it tough'

There is nothing wrong with lower taxes provided there is enough money raised to pay for the above and more, what is the point of being the wealthiest 6th or 7th country in the world if it's only on paper with a huge section of society in poverty including a large portion of those in wages poverty.

[BobG]

Don't start me on tax policy in this country Sydney!! It strikes me as being the most deceitful, corrupt, self serving and dishonest system in the country.

BobG

[SydneyRover]

Exactly Bob, I was hoping to see a response from our man of numbers but he seems not to have seen my post.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Exactly Bob, I was hoping to see a response from our man of numbers but he seems not to have seen my post.

Correct, downside of working til 11pm at night I guess.

I fundamentally disagree with many parts of tax policy in most countries right back to my university days but particularly this country, I'd rip it up completely as it is full of flaws and this government offers far too high a tax option (note many on the left don't think it's high enough).

Where I have a big difference with your approach is things like healthcare. There are far better models we can use to make the care better.  I don't fear private involvement, in fact I favour it, I do though fear the current governments ability to regulate it properly if used.  Andy Burnham for one realised this 15 years ago. It can have huge benefits for all of us if we use and legislate it properly, but I doubt that would ever happen.

[SydneyRover]

If Andy Burham can get more from less out of private health care it will be a first, if you can show where another country's health care system runs more efficiently it will make an interesting read.

There of course will be a few caveats where the tories have made a b*llocks of things but I think you will struggle.

And your answer to the consequences of a race to the base with lower taxes?


''NHS comes top in healthcare survey

The NHS has been declared the best healthcare system by an international panel of experts who rated its care superior to countries which spend far more on health.''

This article is more than 7 years old (only 4 years into the tories plan)

Study by Washington-based foundation puts healthcare provision in the US at the bottom of its report

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health

[Sprotyrover]

  Bob, those small share owners have had a hard time of it for a couple of years some losing quite a lot on their share value when there was no clamour to hit any oil and gas companies.
  Also the big share owners apart from very few big individual share owners are the pension companies, so basically your quite happy to hit the small guy when for once there share income has been good after a few bad years and pensioners, and tar them with being the elite who want hammering.
  Royal Dutch Shell is now domiciled in London for the last few years because the Dutch government taxed them too highly and it was prudent to move headquarters over here and pay taxes here, they would not be here under a Labour Government, or some of the other big companies to take a hit, and people like you would be expected to just suck eggs, they emptied the coffers the last time, and we all have a poorer pension because of the hit they took off Brown. 

Spot on Selby, Browns raid on the Pension funds cause them to mass panic and invest 609 billion £ out of the UK no doubt causing the collapse in 2008

[BobG]

And yet it's the Tories who keep on telling us all to 'move on....' Funny that.

Are you familiar with the concept of sunk costs Sproty?

BobG

[SydneyRover]

  Bob, those small share owners have had a hard time of it for a couple of years some losing quite a lot on their share value when there was no clamour to hit any oil and gas companies.
  Also the big share owners apart from very few big individual share owners are the pension companies, so basically your quite happy to hit the small guy when for once there share income has been good after a few bad years and pensioners, and tar them with being the elite who want hammering.
  Royal Dutch Shell is now domiciled in London for the last few years because the Dutch government taxed them too highly and it was prudent to move headquarters over here and pay taxes here, they would not be here under a Labour Government, or some of the other big companies to take a hit, and people like you would be expected to just suck eggs, they emptied the coffers the last time, and we all have a poorer pension because of the hit they took off Brown. 

Spot on Selby, Browns raid on the Pension funds cause them to mass panic and invest 609 billion £ out of the UK no doubt causing the collapse in 2008

And if anyone can please explain why shareholders should be helped from beyond what the board that runs the company can do?

Surely shares are like any other capitalist venture you pays your money and takes your chances. Shares often pay more than bank interest but when they don't it's the premium on the risk. Shareholders are not nor should be a protected species.

The country cannot run on fresh air, the money has to come from somewhere. How it is distributed is the problem.

Roots of pensions debacle traced to Lawson Act
By Richard Miles and Antonia Senior, The Times 2003

THE roots of today’s pension contribution holiday debacle can be traced back to the Budget of 1986 and Nigel Lawson’s drive to curb tax relief for the pensions industry.

In that year’s Finance Act the former Chancellor, now Lord Lawson of Blaby, introduced a law that effectively imposed a 5 per cent cap on the surplus of an employer’s pension fund.

He offered employers the choice of using surplus assets above this cap to improve benefits for members, or to take a contributions holiday. Otherwise, the assets would be heavily taxed. Predictably, employers opted for the holiday.

Raj Mody, partner at Hewitt, Bacon & Woodrow, the actuary, said: “I think the Government was paranoid at the time at the idea that companies were using the tax haven of their pension schemes to secrete away money. That idea now is a million miles away from reality.”

Opposition to the move was strong. Both the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress said the limit was too low. They gave warning that the security of pension schemes could be threatened.

Inland Revenue statistics show that between 1994 and 1999, employers took annual contribution holidays worth £2.5 billion. Other companies opted to keep on making contributions, but at a reduced rate. The Revenue estimates they saved between £850 million and £1 billion each year.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roots-of-pensions-debacle-traced-to-lawson-act-333ltkp2d3q

[SydneyRover]

More light at the end of the sewer?

''Key nations agree to halt funding for new fossil fuel projects
The Group of Seven pledges to phase out unabated coal plants by 2035''

''Top environmental ministers from the Group of Seven major industrial countries agreed Friday to end government financing for international coal-fired power generation and to accelerate the phasing out of unabated coal plants by the year 2035.

The group said that it would aim to have “predominantly decarbonized electricity sectors by 2035.”

The commitments on the phaseout of coal plants will particularly affect Japan, which relies heavily on coal-fired power plants.

Unabated coal plants include those that have not yet adopted technology for capturing and using carbon dioxide.

The G-7 ministers also said that new road vehicles in their countries would be “predominantly” zero-emissions vehicles by 2030, and that they plan to accelerate cuts in the use of Russian natural gas, which would be replaced by clean power in the long term''

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/05/27/g7-coal-phaseout-fossil-fuel/

They are Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the United States.

[BobG]

We're doing well on that then aren't we....

BobG

[SydneyRover]

Yes Bob it's a good move a great move. Oz has just tuned a bit of a corner and understands now that due to doing nothing for the past 10 years it compresses what needs to be done to meet 2035 targets into around 12 or so years.

[SydneyRover]

And  lots to be paid out as dividends to those with the cash to buy shares.... Which party do they tend to vote for? Oh. Wait a minute!

BobG

Nothing wrong with shares or dividends. We need to get away from that mentality.

That's quite true pud, but if the government via policy wants people to own shares as part of its plan to support pensioners and then drives its political agenda to support business at almost any cost to maintain its vote is that fair?

I wonder how many of the millions forced to accept welfare and use foodbanks own shares?

And further to this (there's always more, aye pud)

Nothing wrong with paying tax We need to get away from that mentality.

The government needs to be honest about why it wants to project an image of being a lower taxing gov't even though it isn't.

It needs to be honest and say 'we the tories don't want want to pay for the NHS, education, police, utilities, public transport, roads and anything else required for the country to maintain services, we want a user pays system and if you can't afford it tough'

There is nothing wrong with lower taxes provided there is enough money raised to pay for the above and more, what is the point of being the wealthiest 6th or 7th country in the world if it's only on paper with a huge section of society in poverty including a large portion of those in wages poverty.

Still awaiting our man of numbers to clarify why a race to the bottom with lower taxes is good for the country and why it shows total disregard for those in poverty.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base.  Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc

[River Don]

Crude oil prices are hitting $120 a barrel over the last few days.

We are starting to get up to the levels they were at when the financial crisis hit in 2007.

News also today that budget pasta is up 50%. Netherlands is about to be cut off from Russian gas, with Denmark not far behind.

I'm starting to feel depressed about the way things are heading.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base.  Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc

Works really well in America, that approach.

Question: which country has the better overall social cohesion and lower levels of absolute poverty? USA or Denmark?

[danumdon]

Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base.  Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc

Works really well in America, that approach.

Question: which country has the better overall social cohesion and lower levels of absolute poverty? USA or Denmark?

Dont you think thats comparing apples and pears.

Surly a better comparision would of been Denmark and the Netherlands?

Ive been to both and i know which one was way more expensive for just about everything you needed.

[SydneyRover]

Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base.  Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc

Sounds simple I don't understand why a pro-business party that has ruled the roost for a decade + would take the exact opposite approach and use such a blunt instrument as Austerity which has clearly failed on all counts.

How would it work in the real world pud?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base.  Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc

Works really well in America, that approach.

Question: which country has the better overall social cohesion and lower levels of absolute poverty? USA or Denmark?

Dont you think thats comparing apples and pears.

Surly a better comparision would of been Denmark and the Netherlands?

Ive been to both and i know which one was way more expensive for just about everything you needed.

Denmark is expensive, sure, but they are also very well off. As are all the other Scandinavian countries. They also have far less inequality than either the UK or USA. And regularly top global quality of life surveys. And they have extremely high taxes and high quality social provision. There's a link there ...

[River Don]

The Federation of Small Business is warning as many as 500,000 are only weeks away from collapse under the weight of energy costs and inflation.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/30/almost-500000-uk-small-businesses-at-risk-of-going-bust-within-weeks

[SydneyRover]

The Federation of Small Business is warning as many as 500,000 are only weeks away from collapse under the weight of energy costs and inflation.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/30/almost-500000-uk-small-businesses-at-risk-of-going-bust-within-weeks

''Nation of entrepreneurs: UK home to more small businesses than any other country in Europe''

''The UK is home to the largest number of micro enterprises which have survived five years in Europe. Britain created a whopping 265,255 micro enterprises with one to nine employees in 2013, of which an incredible 114,590 survived five years, more than any other country in Europe''

https://www.cityam.com/nation-of-entrepreneurs-uk-home-to-more-small-businesses-than-any-other-country-in-europe/#:~:text=The%20UK%20is%20home%20to,any%20other%20country%20in%20Europe.

It will be interesting how Sunak deals with this, he could incentivise business lifting millions out of poverty at the same time, let's see what he comes up with RD

[River Don]

The EU have agreed a ban on Russian oil imports.

This is going to send the crude oil price higher still.

[normal rules]

I watched the original Dune film last night.
A famous line from the film struck a chord with me in relation to the commodity Spice.
Baron Harkonnen, former ruler of Arrakis, summarises its importance with the line: “He who controls the spice, controls the universe.”
Transpose spice with Oil and universe with World, or perhaps more specifically Europe and you get to where we are now.
Morally, doing everything to defeat Putin is perhaps the right thing to do. But at what cost? The UK and wider Europe got used to sacrifice 80 years ago, but times have changed.
Fuel prices only continuing to go one way. Utility bills rising. Food prices rising. A very deep Winter of discontent coming.
Putin showing no sign of letting up in Eastern Ukraine.
Europe cutting itself off from Russian oil.
Things are going to get a lot worse.