The Labour Files

[BillyStubbsTears]

Branton

You're still not engaging on the 2 very central parts of my argument.

The Red Wall Brexit voters had, in large numbers by early-mid 2019, thrown their support to a party that was actively pushing for a No Deal Brexit.

Do you forget the Question Times up North when someone would express support for WTO rules and the place would explode in applause? (Anecdotal, obviously, but it chimes with the polling data.)

The Red Wall Brexiters weren't, by and large, looking for a compromise soft Brexit. They wanted Brexit red in tooth and claw. Because that's what Brexit was in the post-Industrial heartland. It wasn't some abstract argument about what would be the best balance of sovereignty and economics. It was about taking back control. Shoving it to the EU-loving Elite.

So I'll ask again.

How could Labour give them a raw enough Brexit to satisfy that need, without losing the EU-supporting other 3/4s of its national support?

Especially in an environment where the LDs, Greens and Nats were offering to try to overturn Brexit altogether?

Your proposed middle way didn't exist. Couldn't exist it the fervid atmosphere of 2019.

[Branton Red]

Billy

Your problem is because you're a political animal with ideological, self-certain views you think that everyone else is the same. You're being absolutist.

The only evidence you can provide is from the reaction of a small number of strongly politically minded individuals who you cannot even prove were Labour voters in 2017. Anecdotal, unrepresentative, irrelevant.

It does not chime with polling data as I've proved in my last post. Red Wall Leave voters abandoned Labour because Labour abandoned it's 'respect the referendum/end FoM' in early 2019 not because of a push for No Deal which came later

The Rights pushing of No Deal is not proof that these voters had hardened on Brexit, or that their reasons for supporting Leave had somehow changed.

It is only proof that they would have preferred No Deal to Remain which is hardly surprising given they voted Leave in the first place despite warnings of No Deal being a possibility.

No not all Red Wall Leavers were fixated on ending FoM (I'm a case in point), but many were, it is the key reason the Leave vote was higher in these areas - not a desire to shove it to the EU elite as you allege

The only evidence we have on whether Red Wall Leavers would have accepted said compromise comes from how they all voted in 2017. Enough said.

Also not all of the Remainer 3/4s of Labour's support were absolutists in terms of Brexit either. Not even close to all. We've already proved that roughly half preferred compromise only a year or so previously.

You're also copying and pasting the 'fervid' atmosphere within political circles and applying it to the whole electorate. Again this is conjecture. There is no evidence for this.

There is no evidence whatsoever for your position. None. The evidence is all in my favour.

Now absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence granted. And so you're entitled to your opinion but forgive me for my continued dismissal of it until you do provide some actual real evidence to convince me otherwise.

Oh and just a reminder as overarching evidence: Labour's worst electoral performance in nearly 100 years having been a hair's breath from being in office 2.5 years earlier with the same leadership and similar policies other than on Brexit.

[albie]

The AlJazeera documentary (see first page of this thread) has just won an international award for investigative journalism;
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1648710369043464196?cxt=HHwWiIC2xY3WsuEtAAAA

Good to see the work receive recognition in the international community, even if in the UK people are pretending that they don't know about it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

An international award you say? Impressive and authoritative. I mean, the awards' Twitter feed has (checks notes) nearly 1,200 followers!

[albie]

BST,

WTF.....what a weird post.
Since when have awards for excellence been dependent upon twitter followers?
The voices in your head are singing again.

"The hierarchy" dealt with the hierarchy of racism identified in the Forde Report, surely central to any consideration of progress towards equality and fairness.
https://tvfilm.newyorkfestivals.com/Winners/WinnerDetailsNew/a05f30e8-9993-4b87-982a-e7d3019674be

Instead of trying to deflect from the issue, better to reply to the questions you were asked.

Here they are again:
1) Does voting Labour do anything to promote socialism, improve trade union support, and rebuild the public sector?
2) What is the reward for working class people in backing Keith?
3) What is your view of the Doubledown news video posted up the thread by me and then Tyke?
and
4) You can add how Keith and Co will address climate change.

Rachel Reeves was on Kuennsberg saying that carbon capture and storage was the key.
This has caused some amusement and consternation in the energy, economics and carbon communities.

[danumdon]

An international award you say? Impressive and authoritative. I mean, the awards' Twitter feed has (checks notes) nearly 1,200 followers!

Someone suffering too many first world issues?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

I'm sorry, I thought my point was so obvious it could be couched in mild sarcasm. Clearly not.

My point was that your use of the term "international" seemed designed to give tan air of authority. "The international community" was the term you used, when a more accurate term would have been "a very small, and apparently not massively influential international group

[Sprotyrover]

Oh dear DiANE ABBOTT puts her foot in it and loses the Labour whip after racist Diane Abbott has Labour whip suspended after 'offensive' comments on racism https://www.itv.com/news/2023-04-23/diane-abbott-has-labour-whip-suspended-after-comments-after-racism-letter?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Quite right, she's talking nonsense and they won't want that to reflect on the party as a whole, very sensible.

[EasyforDennis]

Oh dear DiANE ABBOTT puts her foot in it and loses the Labour whip after racist Diane Abbott has Labour whip suspended after 'offensive' comments on racism https://www.itv.com/news/2023-04-23/diane-abbott-has-labour-whip-suspended-after-comments-after-racism-letter?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

Shame the government don't act in the.same manner.

[Sprotyrover]

Oh dear DiANE ABBOTT puts her foot in it and loses the Labour whip after racist Diane Abbott has Labour whip suspended after 'offensive' comments on racism https://www.itv.com/news/2023-04-23/diane-abbott-has-labour-whip-suspended-after-comments-after-racism-letter?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

Shame the government don't act in the.same manner.

so they tolerate anti Jewish remarks give me an example ?

[belton rover]

This wasn’t a spur of the moment comment, it was a thought through, pre planned letter.
The ‘first draft’ nonsense doesn’t wash either. You redraft pieces to make subtle changes, not to completely change your mind about whether jews suffer from racism.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Oh dear DiANE ABBOTT puts her foot in it and loses the Labour whip after racist Diane Abbott has Labour whip suspended after 'offensive' comments on racism https://www.itv.com/news/2023-04-23/diane-abbott-has-labour-whip-suspended-after-comments-after-racism-letter?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

Shame the government don't act in the.same manner.

so they tolerate anti Jewish remarks give me an example ?

No, but they certainly tolerate anti-Muslim prejudice. What response has there been from the Tory party to the disgraceful lies by the Home Secretary about grooming gangs?

None whatsoever.

On Abbot, I hesitate to criticise her, as a middle aged white man who has never had to deal with the sort of vile, racist vitriol that she's had to live with.

But her words come from a very bad ideology that sets a hierarchy of racism.

It's not just something that radicals with an Afro-Caribbean heritage do. I once wrote a review of a Primo Levi book, and the comments section seconded into a blazing row between a Native American and a Jewish contributor about whether their groups' Holocausts were the greatest crime against humanity in history.

It's a particular form of division, and I hate the politics of division. Abbot has every right to shout loudly about racism, but what she's done here is unacceptable and Labour is 100% right to suspend her.

[Bentley Bullet]

Diane Abbott is a racist. Whatever else you think is your problem.

[EasyforDennis]

Oh dear DiANE ABBOTT puts her foot in it and loses the Labour whip after racist Diane Abbott has Labour whip suspended after 'offensive' comments on racism https://www.itv.com/news/2023-04-23/diane-abbott-has-labour-whip-suspended-after-comments-after-racism-letter?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

Shame the government don't act in the.same manner.

so they tolerate anti Jewish remarks give me an example ?

You very cleverly interpreted my post to your advantage. My point was that she was immediately punished by the Labour party hierarchy. Not something that ever happens with Conservative party. Raab being a classic example. Oh and yes I think Abbott is racist but she is also stupid and in my opinion is a liability to the party. Kier Starmer will be secretly pleased.

[albie]

Keith now opposed to changing the voting system to PR:
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/04/27/keir-starmer-now-opposes-scrapping-westminsters-voting-system-for-pr-in-blow-for-reformers/

He was in favour of change when standing for the leadership.

Just another pledge, I guess!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Keith now opposed to changing the voting system to PR:
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/04/27/keir-starmer-now-opposes-scrapping-westminsters-voting-system-for-pr-in-blow-for-reformers/

He was in favour of change when standing for the leadership.

Just another pledge, I guess!

There's a fair few videos of him saying one thing one day, another the next.  It's not a great look, what does he stand for?

Of course many labour voters said it about Boris Johnson, one assumes they'll think the same on Starmer.  Is he a liar too?

[Bentley Bullet]

Starmer doesn't lie, he just makes mistakes!

 

[scawsby steve]

Re-nationalisation as well. He's reneged on that

[tyke1962]

Re-nationalisation as well. He's reneged on that

The Labour Party Video Keith doesn't want you to see .


https://youtu.be/J5JXO8pHwgo

[Bentley Bullet]

Billy, give us a sign.

[albie]

Even Owen Jones of the Guardian is exasperated with Keith's epic fail on the PR front;
https://youtu.be/e7QpzCkq5sU

The Double Down video sums up the vacuum at the heart of UK politics.
No real difference on policy between the parties, only the Greens with any principles.

[albie]

Interesting interview with Prof Sikka on the ludicrous reasons given by Keith and Reeves for not supporting public ownership;
https://youtu.be/3VVjZCbQ24Q

So the people who created the problems we have in water, rail and the rest are going to get us out of the mess are they?

Saddle up the unicorns!

[Branton Red]

Keith now opposed to changing the voting system to PR:
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/04/27/keir-starmer-now-opposes-scrapping-westminsters-voting-system-for-pr-in-blow-for-reformers/

He was in favour of change when standing for the leadership.

Just another pledge, I guess!

Very disappointed in this!!

[albie]

Another pledge discarded by Keith today, this time on tuition fees.

Here are his promises standing for the leadership, still on his site;
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/

One by one, knocking them down to reverse intentions.
Channelling his inner Nick Clegg, alienating younger voters at one fell swoop.

Is his ambition to totally wreck the Labour Party?

[tyke1962]

Keith now opposed to changing the voting system to PR:
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/04/27/keir-starmer-now-opposes-scrapping-westminsters-voting-system-for-pr-in-blow-for-reformers/

He was in favour of change when standing for the leadership.

Just another pledge, I guess!

Very disappointed in this!!

So will millions of the electorate who vote Labour at the next election unfortunately Branton .

If people think Corbyn destroyed the Labour Party they haven't seen anything yet .

I'll predict a Keith Labour  government will be its last under its present guise .

[scawsby steve]

It takes a really bad leader to make a mess of a 20 point lead in the polls, against a crap government who continually score own goals; but I'm honestly starting to think this guy could do it, with all the pledges he's reneging on.

I still think the Tories will get slaughtered on Thursday in the locals, but the GE is a long way off, and there's still time for Keith to turn what seemed like a certain Labour landslide into hung parliament territory.

[drfchound]

Not many defending Starmer on this thread.

[albie]

Keith has now come out as a fully fledged Tory;
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-real-conservatives-keir-starmer-protect-way-life-2337576

Honest of him to fess up to what we can all see.

So, what next?
Channelling that George Osborne vibe is my bet, Keith and Rachel might even invite the austerian into an advisory role....what could go wrong?

[BillyStubbsTears]

You do make yourself look silly sometimes Albie, in this blind rush to criticise Starmer on every point.

He's talking about conservative values, not Conservative Party values.

"there are precious things – in our way of life, in our environment, in our communities – that it is our responsibility to protect and preserve and to pass on to future generations."

Things like the BBC, NHS, the environment. Things the Tory party has been very much not conserving.

Are you saying you don't agree with him on those points?