The Labour Files

[tyke1962]

Let's see how the so called younger Labour internationalists that Billy often refers to go about eating some of these apples .

All for a donation of £5m .

https://youtu.be/2IK58CE2RsQ

[albie]

Keith is a dangerous fool if he thinks that licences for oil and gas are compatible with climate change objectives;
https://twitter.com/i/status/1670682201313230848

The idea is completely insane given the trajectory to meet a limit of 1.5 degree increase.
It is important that Rosebank and Cambo do not proceed.

[albie]

Owd Keith gets truthbombed at one of his set piece rallies;
https://media.mas.to/masto-public/cache/media_attachments/files/110/667/131/127/878/539/original/88f2733fad0a7fdc.mp4

Wakey wakey!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1677050517426454531?t=-b3ER1PYhZ416MhPHCnTbg&s=19

They'll do well to do much with the constraints they are tying themselves too.  Tories should be more optimistic with recent labour announcements I think.  We badly need an alternative to both.

[albie]

That lass that truthbombed Keith giving an interview to explain giving him the what for;
https://files.mastodon.green/cache/media_attachments/files/110/668/439/792/972/187/original/adbab5f0da453ab3.mp4

Not that he will listen!

[MachoMadness]

The latest U-turn - refusing to reverse the child benefit cap, a policy that his shadow work and pensions secretary described as heinous and offensive a month ago - is a really serious one.

Who does this help? Who is briefing him to make these decisions? Why does he think driving kids into poverty is a vote winner? What is the point of a party that refuses to offer any kind of hope at all - in fact actually scoffs at the idea of offering hope.

Frankly I'm actually a bit scared if this lot get in power. I'm scared that they'll be so ineffective and devoid of ideas in government that they'll open the door to the far right to get in power in 2029. Then we'll be in real trouble.

[tyke1962]

The latest U-turn - refusing to reverse the child benefit cap, a policy that his shadow work and pensions secretary described as heinous and offensive a month ago - is a really serious one.

Who does this help? Who is briefing him to make these decisions? Why does he think driving kids into poverty is a vote winner? What is the point of a party that refuses to offer any kind of hope at all - in fact actually scoffs at the idea of offering hope.

Frankly I'm actually a bit scared if this lot get in power. I'm scared that they'll be so ineffective and devoid of ideas in government that they'll open the door to the far right to get in power in 2029. Then we'll be in real trouble.

Exactly right , a Labour Government that doesn't tackle child poverty or improve the lives of the very people it was founded to represent is doing nothing other than to steal Tory clothes .

Today's Guardian is getting desperate , " let's not judge the Labour Party on it's words as opposition but when it comes to government " .

Well it's to be hoped if elected to government they do actually improve the lives of the people they were founded to represent because as you've alluded to , the far right will be more than happy to fill the void .

As we all know only the left can truly fight the far right .

[wilts rover]

The latest U-turn - refusing to reverse the child benefit cap, a policy that his shadow work and pensions secretary described as heinous and offensive a month ago - is a really serious one.

Who does this help? Who is briefing him to make these decisions? Why does he think driving kids into poverty is a vote winner? What is the point of a party that refuses to offer any kind of hope at all - in fact actually scoffs at the idea of offering hope.

Frankly I'm actually a bit scared if this lot get in power. I'm scared that they'll be so ineffective and devoid of ideas in government that they'll open the door to the far right to get in power in 2029. Then we'll be in real trouble.

Why they are doing it is fairly obvious - so that they can avoid the Tory accusations of spending out of control and where's the money going to come from.

All the interviewers still do it whenever they have a Labour politican on - where's the money for your policies going to come from? Yet the Tories are proposing to scrap income tax at a cost of £1.7 billion - did anyone ask any Tory politican on any news show over the weekend, where's the money going to come from?

I dont think it's right, Starmer should be bigger and bolder and offer a vision, but that's why he's doing it - so the Tories can't accuse him of being profligate with taxpayers money.

[scawsby steve]

Mick Lynch has the position perfectly summed up, wanting to know when Starmer is going to say something that will actually show him to be different to the Tories.

What an awful choice people are going to have in the polling booths next year.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The latest U-turn - refusing to reverse the child benefit cap, a policy that his shadow work and pensions secretary described as heinous and offensive a month ago - is a really serious one.

Who does this help? Who is briefing him to make these decisions? Why does he think driving kids into poverty is a vote winner? What is the point of a party that refuses to offer any kind of hope at all - in fact actually scoffs at the idea of offering hope.

Frankly I'm actually a bit scared if this lot get in power. I'm scared that they'll be so ineffective and devoid of ideas in government that they'll open the door to the far right to get in power in 2029. Then we'll be in real trouble.

I agree entirely.

The problem is, thee and me aren't the problem here.

The problem is that 60% of the population want to keep that cap.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2023/07/11/fa421/1

Unfortunately for thee and me, if a Labour Govt is going to make a change to society, it has to get elected first. And hopefully stay in power for 20 years.

That means it has to attract the support of a lot of people who I wouldn't like to have to spend time with.

Of course, the Labour Party could just wear its heart in its sleeve on every topic regardless of public opinion. Would that make you feel better?

[Branton Red]

Of course political parties have to consider public opinion before launching election promises and manifestos.

But they can't be fully beholden to it. That's called populism.

Neither can they promise to do/not do certain things as they're popular in order to get elected and then once elected do the opposite. That erodes trust in the party and reduces their chance of re-election.

How many of the 60% Billy quotes as being in favour of the cap see it as a deal-breaker re how they vote?? Very few I'd suggest.

If the Labour party believe this cap to be "heinous and offensive" then they should have the courage to campaign on removing it and aim to persuade the public as to their point of view rather than pandering to people they fundamentally disagree with.

The other thing that happens when political parties refuse to follow ideals even at a most fundamental level?

They're accused of lacking political principles and are then in danger of losing potential votes. Which is why "What does Sir Keir Starmer stand for?" is a question that reverberates.

[MachoMadness]

I accept the need to be pragmatic. But at some point that pragmatism turns into cold cynicism. I understand you have to compromise your principles sometimes. But you still need to have some! And if the labour party can't oppose a policy that drives starving kids further into poverty on a point of principle, then what's the point? Because it won't play well with your red wall focus group? That's populism. And all it does is shunt the overton window further right.

Stand for something. Make an argument beyond "it's our turn in charge." If these grifting spivs get in with a thumping majority, and enact the Cameron-esque policies and economic philosophy that they're currently proposing, and that you've ripped to shreds many times, we are in a scary place as a country. Because then the real Tory headbangers like Braverman and Anderson, will have all the ammo they need to run in 2029 on an authoritarian manifesto, and they'll win.

That's what Sir Kid Starver is risking with this craven bullshit. Hope it's worth it.

[drfchound]

Labour will always have people who vote for them come what may.
The same applies to the Tories.
The floating voter will decide who wins the next GE so it is now that Starmer needs to win over the floating voter if he wants to be PM.
He doesn’t appear to be doing that.

[albie]

If Starmer and his fanboys were any less intelligent they would have roots.

Snuggling up to the prejudices of soft Tories makes you a hostage to fortune, in order to please those who will reject you at the first opportunity.

Following on from the daily reversals and shape shifting, NE Mayor Jamie Driscoll has quit Labour to run as an Independent.
This after been denied the chance to put his bid to stand by the ludicrous Keith.

Summary here of the betrayal on reform to the allowance which would help eradicate child poverty;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2egd47Fds50

If Keith won't eradicate child poverty, is he in favour of it?
What an embarrassment he is!

[BillyStubbsTears]

And here we have classic examples of why the Left has never, ever won power.

Because for the Left, posturing ALWAYS comes before the grubby, dirty business of actually winning power.

It's always about proclaiming how much you care. And if you then don't get into power to actually do anything, it's the fault of the electorate or the centrists.

Stop and think. Has ANY Labour Govt EVER left office with more kids in poverty than when it took office? And when you climb down off your soap bubble soap boxes, do you genuinely believe that's what this next Labour Govt will do?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

We don't have much to judge labour on though do we? Tony Blair is the only labour leader to win an election inf at least 40 years...

There is a limit to how many pledges you can change your view on surely? What does he stand for and what do labour want to be.  They don't have to be as different as Corbyn but at least try something.

Of course the next 12 months we'll see what the parties are going to do. Labours vote is still fairly soft and that gives the Tories an opportunity if they can get past parties, Boris Johnson and settle inflation.

[ncRover]

People should be getting encouraged to have more kids. The western world is going to have a serious ageing population problem in the coming decades. And that will require a lot of tax and spend.

The electorate like a politician with conviction who they feel can “get things done” “mean what they say” and “say it how it is”, as daft as that sounds. I can’t imagine Kier inspiring many swing voters come the TV debates. I don’t really have an opinion on him myself he’s just “meh”.

He will win by default but it’s not exactly the wave of optimism I believe Blair had in ‘97? (Too young to remember)

[Herbert Anchovy]

I’m done with character and personality politics. Just give me someone who’s competent to do the job. Keir Starmer is the only one who fits the bill.

[Ldr]

If Starmer and his fanboys were any less intelligent they would have roots.

Snuggling up to the prejudices of soft Tories makes you a hostage to fortune, in order to please those who will reject you at the first opportunity.

Following on from the daily reversals and shape shifting, NE Mayor Jamie Driscoll has quit Labour to run as an Independent.
This after been denied the chance to put his bid to stand by the ludicrous Keith.

Summary here of the betrayal on reform to the allowance which would help eradicate child poverty;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2egd47Fds50

If Keith won't eradicate child poverty, is he in favour of it?
What an embarrassment he is!

It’s a sound decision up here Albie. Kim McGuinness has much more appeal to the wider electorate

[MachoMadness]

And here we have classic examples of why the Left has never, ever won power.

Because for the Left, posturing ALWAYS comes before the grubby, dirty business of actually winning power.

It's always about proclaiming how much you care. And if you then don't get into power to actually do anything, it's the fault of the electorate or the centrists.

Stop and think. Has ANY Labour Govt EVER left office with more kids in poverty than when it took office? And when you climb down off your soap bubble soap boxes, do you genuinely believe that's what this next Labour Govt will do?

The shadow culture secretary was on the news this morning saying - and this is a direct quote - "there is no money left". So we're now seeing Labour adopt an identical economic philosophy to the Cameron government, one that has hobbled the economy for over a decade, and one that you personally have (rightly) ripped apart repeatedly on here. It's not credible to suggest that Labour will suddenly shift back to Keynesian policies after arguing there is no money left to invest!

People aren't getting on a soapbox, they're simply addressing the things Labour are actually saying in reality. You appear to be addressing things you would like Labour to do, even though they are saying they will do the opposite of those things.

Here's another example - Labour pitching for Tory donors. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-14/labour-invites-tory-donors-to-breakfast-in-bid-to-woo-city-elite

Now, I accept the need to reach across the aisle somewhat. But do you really think those donors, if they hitch their wagon to the Labour Party, are likely to support any kind of even mildly transformative agenda? They're just going to plough millions into the Labour Party and ask for nothing in return when Labour are in power? Come on. It's just not credible.

[tyke1962]

And here we have classic examples of why the Left has never, ever won power.

Because for the Left, posturing ALWAYS comes before the grubby, dirty business of actually winning power.

It's always about proclaiming how much you care. And if you then don't get into power to actually do anything, it's the fault of the electorate or the centrists.

Stop and think. Has ANY Labour Govt EVER left office with more kids in poverty than when it took office? And when you climb down off your soap bubble soap boxes, do you genuinely believe that's what this next Labour Govt will do?

So just to clarify we are to believe and trust that Keith whose U turned on just about everything he's said previously isn't really such a bad sort of chap after all and doesn't really mean what he says currently .

I think your centrist Labour Tribalism is leading you down the same path as those who voted for Johnson in 2019 .

" Oh so he tells a few fibs now and again , he's a grand sort of fella really ".

As in they aren't really U turns , " you'll see once Keith is PM he'll not let you down ".

What the hell does Labour's past have to do with anything ? , it doesn't given this is the most Right Wing Labour leader in the party's history .

[Branton Red]

And here we have classic examples of why the Left has never, ever won power.

Because for the Left, posturing ALWAYS comes before the grubby, dirty business of actually winning power.

It's always about proclaiming how much you care. And if you then don't get into power to actually do anything, it's the fault of the electorate or the centrists.

Stop and think. Has ANY Labour Govt EVER left office with more kids in poverty than when it took office? And when you climb down off your soap bubble soap boxes, do you genuinely believe that's what this next Labour Govt will do?

Political policy making has to be a mixture of respecting and following public opinion and persuading the public to your view point. On a case by case or policy by policy basis.

I agree with you that the Left have tended to too much of the latter and courted unpopularity and defeat.

But too much of the former is populism pure and simple. Especially if you're following public opinion that you fundamentally disagree with. You're also making yourself appear utterly free of principle.

If you're advocating Labour campaigning on keeping this policy in place then overturning it when in power. Then you're advocating electoral dishonesty.

How can you justify continuously complaining about Tory populism and dishonesty (not that I don't often agree with you) on one hand but advocate populist decision making and electoral dishonesty on the other just because it suits your own political preference and agenda??

[scawsby steve]

Starmer will become a Labour Prime Minister, and he will be the worst one in history, even worse than Callaghan.

[Bentley Bullet]

Starmer will become a Labour Prime Minister, and he will be the worst one in history, even worse than Callaghan.

Possibly the last Labour PM also.

[drfchound]

Starmer will become a Labour Prime Minister, and he will be the worst one in history, even worse than Callaghan.

I fear that you may be right SS.
On all points mentioned.
It will be interesting though to see if he is defended by his supporters.

[Bentley Bullet]

What, you mean defended by the same people who supported Corbyn before the last GE, only to turn their back on him and support a new leader who also turned his back on him?

What's that saying about I'll even vote for a monkey as long as he's wearing a red rosette?

[Not Now Kato]

Perhaps you should wait and see what’s in the respective manifestos before making up your minds.
 
Oh, wait, you won’t read them will you; you’ve already made your minds up you’d rather have the current bunch irrespective of their total failings!

[tyke1962]

Perhaps you should wait and see what’s in the respective manifestos before making up your minds.
 
Oh, wait, you won’t read them will you; you’ve already made your minds up you’d rather have the current bunch irrespective of their total failings!

Loving the blind loyalty , Keith renegades on practically everything he's promised from standing for the Labour Party leader and whilst leader .

Excuse my scepticism that his Election Manifesto will be any different with the historic track record .

It's generally a good idea as a prospective Labour PM to actually come across as someone you can have confidence in and at least some kind of trust even if you don't always agree with everything .

The only person who will hand the next election to the Tories is Keith Starmer himself .

Don't think for one moment that he isn't capable of blowing this .

A man with no beliefs is incapable of leadership .



 

[drfchound]

Perhaps you should wait and see what’s in the respective manifestos before making up your minds.
 
Oh, wait, you won’t read them will you; you’ve already made your minds up you’d rather have the current bunch irrespective of their total failings!

Kato, after what has gone before I just want someone who can be trusted and relied on to run the country.
I genuinely don’t think KS is that man.

[belton rover]

Perhaps you should wait and see what’s in the respective manifestos before making up your minds.
 
Oh, wait, you won’t read them will you; you’ve already made your minds up you’d rather have the current bunch irrespective of their total failings!

So will you be voting for the totally failing Tories if they have a better manifesto than Labour?