The Labour Files

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, those on the Left who don't want a Starmer led Labour party in power might do well to remember what the alternative is.

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1683498583117508611

They are the same people who didn't want a Brown led Labour party to win in 2010, and put us on the road to having truly evil people like Braverman in Government.

[tommy toes]

Say what you like about Starmer, yes he comes across as a little dull and doesn't have the charisma of gits like Johnson, but he's super intelligent and knows exactly what he needs to do to get Labour into power.
And he's doing it, bit by bit and if that upsets some Labour purists then tough, you can't change the game if you're not on the pitch

[tyke1962]

Meanwhile, those on the Left who don't want a Starmer led Labour party in power might do well to remember what the alternative is.

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1683498583117508611

They are the same people who didn't want a Brown led Labour party to win in 2010, and put us on the road to having truly evil people like Braverman in Government.
[/quote

Billy , Starmer's just announced he isn't going to lift the 2 child benefit threshold which has placed 800k kids in to poverty

People in glass houses ....

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Come back after 5 years of a Labour Govt and let's talk about child poverty numbers.

Deal?

Or you can sit on the sidelines saying "There's no difference between them" and have another 5 years of this shower of shite, and blame everyone else when child poverty increases.

Your call.

[albie]

So the plan is to lie to people in order to win votes, then to do the opposite of what was promised when the GE is won?

The promise to keep the 2 child benefit cap is a clever strategic lie in your book.
Which of the policy shifts do you think are just tactical moves to gain advantage?

What about the promise to keep to Tory spending plans, and the idea that the green new deal can be deferred, in support of "fiscal rules" that have no basis in modern economics.

The Tories have been rightly condemned for their disastrous austerity fetish.
Reeves "fiscal rules" are austerity under a different name, with no policies directed to increasing revenues to match existing demands of cost of living pressures.

No-one is saying that they are the same, but if you do not support discredited neo-liberal economics neither party currently offers a viable programme.

[MachoMadness]

Tyke.

Come back after 5 years of a Labour Govt and let's talk about child poverty numbers.

Deal?

Or you can sit on the sidelines saying "There's no difference between them" and have another 5 years of this shower of shite, and blame everyone else when child poverty increases.

Your call.

Labour are currently wooing Tory donors. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-14/labour-invites-tory-donors-to-breakfast-in-bid-to-woo-city-elite?leadSource=uverify%20wall

Do you anticipate these donors will support the kind of redistributive policy that is needed to reduce child poverty? Are they just going to switch allegiance to the Labour Party for nowt in return?

People are responding to what Labour are doing and saying ("there's no money left" is the latest line shadow ministers were trotting out the other day. "no hope is better than false hope", says Wes Streeting). You are responding to what you imagine Labour will do, based on what the last Labour government did 20 years ago when the world was completely different. So who is really only confirming what they want to be true in this thread?

For what it's worth, I think Labour will win at a canter because the Tories have imploded. Managerial competence and nothing else will get them over the line. My hope is that Labour falls short of a majority and has to form an alliance that curbs some of their nastier right wing element, because my genuine fear is that a Labour government in its current form will do nothing but open the door for a Braverman-led (or someone similar) far right ultranationalist government in 2029.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Come back after 5 years of a Labour Govt and let's talk about child poverty numbers.

Deal?

Or you can sit on the sidelines saying "There's no difference between them" and have another 5 years of this shower of shite, and blame everyone else when child poverty increases.

Your call.

Labour are currently wooing Tory donors. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-14/labour-invites-tory-donors-to-breakfast-in-bid-to-woo-city-elite?leadSource=uverify%20wall

Do you anticipate these donors will support the kind of redistributive policy that is needed to reduce child poverty? Are they just going to switch allegiance to the Labour Party for nowt in return?

People are responding to what Labour are doing and saying ("there's no money left" is the latest line shadow ministers were trotting out the other day. "no hope is better than false hope", says Wes Streeting). You are responding to what you imagine Labour will do, based on what the last Labour government did 20 years ago when the world was completely different. So who is really only confirming what they want to be true in this thread?

For what it's worth, I think Labour will win at a canter because the Tories have imploded. Managerial competence and nothing else will get them over the line. My hope is that Labour falls short of a majority and has to form an alliance that curbs some of their nastier right wing element, because my genuine fear is that a Labour government in its current form will do nothing but open the door for a Braverman-led (or someone similar) far right ultranationalist government in 2029.

MM

You sound very much like me c.1996. I still have a copy of an email I wrote to a friend ranting that Blair would so disappoint the people who voted for him that Michael Portillo would sweep to power in 2001-2 heading the English National Party.

[drfchound]

So the plan is to lie to people in order to win votes, then to do the opposite of what was promised when the GE is won?

The promise to keep the 2 child benefit cap is a clever strategic lie in your book.
Which of the policy shifts do you think are just tactical moves to gain advantage?

What about the promise to keep to Tory spending plans, and the idea that the green new deal can be deferred, in support of "fiscal rules" that have no basis in modern economics.

The Tories have been rightly condemned for their disastrous austerity fetish.
Reeves "fiscal rules" are austerity under a different name, with no policies directed to increasing revenues to match existing demands of cost of living pressures.

No-one is saying that they are the same, but if you do not support discredited neo-liberal economics neither party currently offers a viable programme.

Albie, with reference to your first paragraph above, I have seen that suggested on this forum in the past.

[albie]

Here is a write up of the recent Labour policy review;
https://labourhub.org.uk/2023/07/23/no-change-no-hope-starmer-criticised-after-rejecting-calls-for-bolder-policies-at-labour-policy-meeting-amid-union-fury/

You know it's a crock of shyte when BST comes on to tell us all how clever it is...unless you are a socialist, or a trade unionist, or vulnerable dependent upon benefits etc.

In fact, anyone who the Labour Party is supposed to be for!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

I'll make the same challenge to you that I did to Tyke.

Come back here after five years of a Labour Govt and let's talk about child poverty.

If the numbers have not come down significantly, I will apologise profusely. I assume you will do the same if they have?

Deal?

[scawsby steve]

I’m from Selby.

The young Labour lad did very well because outside of the town itself, it is a pretty standard rural conservative sort of constituency. Particularly the Tadcaster area with affluent villages around there. The boundary even extends to near Harrogate!

I know it was a low turnout but I never thought I’d see it become Labour. A Corbyn-led Labour would certainly not get a sniff in seats like this.

That last paragraph confirms what many of us suspect, NC. That Starmer's Labour Party is no different to the Tories.

Who are these many of us?
Are you the spokesman for them?
Have you got any evidence?
Or is it just a few on the off topic that are more right wing than Stanley Matthews !

Me right wing? I was a Trade Unionist and a socialist before you were born, sunshine, and there lies the crux of the matter, because the modern Labour Party stands for none of those things, or for the working class in general.

What's your opinion on Starmer's support for the cap on child benefits?

What's your opinion on Mick Lynch and the current striking unions?

Give us a bit of substance to back up your neo-liberalist views.

[tyke1962]

Albie.

I'll make the same challenge to you that I did to Tyke.

Come back here after five years of a Labour Govt and let's talk about child poverty.

If the numbers have not come down significantly, I will apologise profusely. I assume you will do the same if they have?

Deal?

Sorry Billy I wouldn't trust Keith's figures or any government for that matter .

So  I'll offer this one up , after five years of a Labour government with a majority I want to see less foodbanks than there are McDonald's outlets .

That in my opinion is a fair measuring tool .

Deal ?

[tyke1962]

I’m from Selby.

The young Labour lad did very well because outside of the town itself, it is a pretty standard rural conservative sort of constituency. Particularly the Tadcaster area with affluent villages around there. The boundary even extends to near Harrogate!

I know it was a low turnout but I never thought I’d see it become Labour. A Corbyn-led Labour would certainly not get a sniff in seats like this.

That last paragraph confirms what many of us suspect, NC. That Starmer's Labour Party is no different to the Tories.

Who are these many of us?
Are you the spokesman for them?
Have you got any evidence?
Or is it just a few on the off topic that are more right wing than Stanley Matthews !

Me right wing? I was a Trade Unionist and a socialist before you were born, sunshine, and there lies the crux of the matter, because the modern Labour Party stands for none of those things, or for the working class in general.

What's your opinion on Starmer's support for the cap on child benefits?

What's your opinion on Mick Lynch and the current striking unions?

Give us a bit of substance to back up your neo-liberalist views.

Steve .

The times coming if it's not already gone for people such as ourselves to stop pinning our hopes that the Labour Party is ever going to be the one that it was founded to be .

Under Keith it's moved itself even further away than it did under Blair , if Dennis Skinner was still around Keith would have thrown him out of the Party too , not even Blair would have dared do what Keith has done to the left since he became leader .

There's very little to be gained by getting angry about the Labour Party anymore what we need is a new party and concentrate our efforts on that and fuq Labour .

I'm not talking about some small left wing outfit here , here today gone tomorrow of which we've seen plenty before .

I'm talking about a coming together of everyone , Mick Lynch , Dave Ward , Eddie Dempsey and the other trade unions , these people are now well known , the daft buggas trying to discredit them on tv have no idea just how much free publicity they are giving to these lads .

George Monibot is another , these people have the face and skills to take people along with them .

The number of left YouTube channels is another , Novara Media , Robespierre , Not The Andrew Marr Show to mention just three .

We are talking about people here and many others who are comfortable in front of the camera , articulate , intelligent and totally relatable .

The kind of people who can energise and motivate the millions of people who desperately need support and Parliamentary representation .

Of course we aren't going to agree on everything but we've more chance of solving our differing opinions under this umbrella than with the red rosette mob .

The timing of this may also work very well too .

When this  Labour Government is in office and the people see just what it is they've actually elected .

That I feel personally is the time to form this new party and as I say I'm not thinking small here I'm thinking way way bigger than we've seen before , candidates actually elected to Parliament and way bigger than UKIP ever was .

I know this has got spoken about at Mick Lynch and Dave Ward level because I've listened to a couple of Podcasts and to be honest they are a bit lukewarm on it but I put that down to they've a bit going on at the minute which is understandable .

In my opinion all it needs is for all the left jigsaw pieces that are out there to come together under one umbrella and well away from the Labour Party's tentacles .

The days of vote for em on Thursday and fight em on Friday are long gone .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke


I'm not sure where you were hiding in 2019.

The type of people you're pining for ran the Labour Party then.

Ran it to the lowest opinion polls ratings in a century and the worst election performance since the 1930s.

You had the Labour party you wanted. It was a car crash. You might just have the humility to reflect on that while the current party gets on with actually, y'know winning an election. 

[bpoolrover]

Tyke a new party would make no difference, its clear this country will not support a left wing government, in my lifetime the only times labour has faired well consistently is when it has been well as conservative as the tories, im not sure really what starner can do if he does what you want him to do he will lose the voters that swop and change there votes

[scawsby steve]

Tyke


I'm not sure where you were hiding in 2019.

The type of people you're pining for ran the Labour Party then.

Ran it to the lowest opinion polls ratings in a century and the worst election performance since the 1930s.

You had the Labour party you wanted. It was a car crash. You might just have the humility to reflect on that while the current party gets on with actually, y'know winning an election.

Winning an election, and then what?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke


I'm not sure where you were hiding in 2019.

The type of people you're pining for ran the Labour Party then.

Ran it to the lowest opinion polls ratings in a century and the worst election performance since the 1930s.

You had the Labour party you wanted. It was a car crash. You might just have the humility to reflect on that while the current party gets on with actually, y'know winning an election.

Winning an election, and then what?

That was the lazy sort of stuff that I used to say in 1996.

Then governing more competently and fairly than this bunch of barrow boys and spivs have done. Over a long period. To make the country stronger and fairer than it is now.

That's what Labour did from 97 to 10.

Was it perfect? Of course not.

Did I agree with it all? Of course not.

But what was the alternative? That's the question that you and Tyke dodge every time.

[belton rover]

All we have right now is that the alternative might be a little less shit. But it could just as easily be a little more shit.

I’m becoming more apolitical each day. I don’t feel like I want to vote for anyone.

[danumdon]

All we have right now is that the alternative might be a little less shit. But it could just as easily be a little more shit.

I’m becoming more apolitical each day. I don’t feel like I want to vote for anyone.

Direct and to the point,

It looks like your opinion could be the view of a great many of the electorate, the enthusiasm to vote for either viable option could not be any less, shocking position for the country to be in.

What ever happened to competent and strong leadership? the system really has failed. I never believed it in the past but  a major reorganisation of our governorship is desperately required, we need new ideas to be given the opportunity to be brought to fruition, not this rehashed nonsense from two parties fighting over the fag end of  a rehashed pile of poo that we now have and look to be having in a slightly regurgitated form in the very near future.

We need a new and relevant PR system to weed out this same think mentality from two middle of the road, going nowhere, achieving nothing parties.

[Iberian Red]

I’m from Selby.

The young Labour lad did very well because outside of the town itself, it is a pretty standard rural conservative sort of constituency. Particularly the Tadcaster area with affluent villages around there. The boundary even extends to near Harrogate!

I know it was a low turnout but I never thought I’d see it become Labour. A Corbyn-led Labour would certainly not get a sniff in seats like this.

That last paragraph confirms what many of us suspect, NC. That Starmer's Labour Party is no different to the Tories.

Who are these many of us?
Are you the spokesman for them?
Have you got any evidence?
Or is it just a few on the off topic that are more right wing than Stanley Matthews !

Me right wing? I was a Trade Unionist and a socialist before you were born, sunshine, and there lies the crux of the matter, because the modern Labour Party stands for none of those things, or for the working class in general.

What's your opinion on Starmer's support for the cap on child benefits?

What's your opinion on Mick Lynch and the current striking unions?

Give us a bit of substance to back up your neo-liberalist views.

Each paragraph at a time.
Firstly,I went to my first Rovers game in 1970(you can have a stab at my age there if you like),so hats off to you you are probably  the oldest posters on this forum. I presumed your posting friends were just making absolutely hilarious jokes about it.
On that point,if you want to call me sunshine,you won't have a problem with me calling you sunset.

On the second paragraph,having grown up in a single parent family(non working mother), with two siblings,again you have have a wild stab in the dark about how I feel about that one.

3rd paragraph.  One of reasons I am proud to be a Doncastrian is our long history of union activity,from the likes of Rodney NUPE/UNISON to some of the great locals that put so many hours into the NUR/RMT. Every union that has been on strike during this 13 year shit show has my 100% backing.
Final paragraph.  I'm confused about this one,as I can't work out if it's one of 3 reasons you posted.
A) You're trying to insult me
B) You read the room completely wrong
C)You don't really understand the significance of Neo liberalism.

Guess which ones I'm taking a wild stab at?

[belton rover]

Iberian - I too assumed that you must be really, really young - but I only had the things you wrote to go on.

I stand corrected.

[scawsby steve]

I’m from Selby.

The young Labour lad did very well because outside of the town itself, it is a pretty standard rural conservative sort of constituency. Particularly the Tadcaster area with affluent villages around there. The boundary even extends to near Harrogate!

I know it was a low turnout but I never thought I’d see it become Labour. A Corbyn-led Labour would certainly not get a sniff in seats like this.

That last paragraph confirms what many of us suspect, NC. That Starmer's Labour Party is no different to the Tories.

Who are these many of us?
Are you the spokesman for them?
Have you got any evidence?
Or is it just a few on the off topic that are more right wing than Stanley Matthews !

Me right wing? I was a Trade Unionist and a socialist before you were born, sunshine, and there lies the crux of the matter, because the modern Labour Party stands for none of those things, or for the working class in general.

What's your opinion on Starmer's support for the cap on child benefits?

What's your opinion on Mick Lynch and the current striking unions?

Give us a bit of substance to back up your neo-liberalist views.

Each paragraph at a time.
Firstly,I went to my first Rovers game in 1970(you can have a stab at my age there if you like),so hats off to you you are probably  the oldest posters on this forum. I presumed your posting friends were just making absolutely hilarious jokes about it.
On that point,if you want to call me sunshine,you won't have a problem with me calling you sunset.

On the second paragraph,having grown up in a single parent family(non working mother), with two siblings,again you have have a wild stab in the dark about how I feel about that one.

3rd paragraph.  One of reasons I am proud to be a Doncastrian is our long history of union activity,from the likes of Rodney NUPE/UNISON to some of the great locals that put so many hours into the NUR/RMT. Every union that has been on strike during this 13 year shit show has my 100% backing.
Final paragraph.  I'm confused about this one,as I can't work out if it's one of 3 reasons you posted.
A) You're trying to insult me
B) You read the room completely wrong
C)You don't really understand the significance of Neo liberalism.

Guess which ones I'm taking a wild stab at?

Quite a good post, that, which leads me to ask the question, considering your history, why would you support an upper middle class neo-liberalist tw*t like Starmer?

The fact that he's trying to expunge the left from his party tells you everything about his political stance.

As regards the people I'm describing as "us", take a good look at all the posts and replies on this thread.

[Iberian Red]

Iberian - I too assumed that you must be really, really young - but I only had the things you wrote to go on.

I stand corrected.

Ha,ha,ha.
No problem Belts.
I always had trolling and likes down as being the domain of spotty adolescents.
Incredible really.

[belton rover]

Iberian - I too assumed that you must be really, really young - but I only had the things you wrote to go on.

I stand corrected.

Ha,ha,ha.
No problem Belts.
I always had trolling and likes down as being the domain of spotty adolescents.
Incredible really.

Now I’m thinking you’re really, really young again.
It was either going to be ‘troll’ or ‘bingo’, wasn’t it?

[albie]

Statement from the former chair of Copeland Labour on his resignation;
https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF11cvnyWAAAlPiX.jpg

and page 2;
https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF11cvnGXoAExn6z.jpg

So, Keith reckons re-tweeting a post from a journo is a disciplinary offence!

The list of Keith's swivels is quite long, some of which lasted less than a fortnight from support to rejection.
About as trustworthy as a wounded rattlesnake, on current form.

[Iberian Red]

I’m from Selby.

The young Labour lad did very well because outside of the town itself, it is a pretty standard rural conservative sort of constituency. Particularly the Tadcaster area with affluent villages around there. The boundary even extends to near Harrogate!

I know it was a low turnout but I never thought I’d see it become Labour. A Corbyn-led Labour would certainly not get a sniff in seats like this.

That last paragraph confirms what many of us suspect, NC. That Starmer's Labour Party is no different to the Tories.

Who are these many of us?
Are you the spokesman for them?
Have you got any evidence?
Or is it just a few on the off topic that are more right wing than Stanley Matthews !

Me right wing? I was a Trade Unionist and a socialist before you were born, sunshine, and there lies the crux of the matter, because the modern Labour Party stands for none of those things, or for the working class in general.

What's your opinion on Starmer's support for the cap on child benefits?

What's your opinion on Mick Lynch and the current striking unions?

Give us a bit of substance to back up your neo-liberalist views.

Each paragraph at a time.
Firstly,I went to my first Rovers game in 1970(you can have a stab at my age there if you like),so hats off to you you are probably  the oldest posters on this forum. I presumed your posting friends were just making absolutely hilarious jokes about it.
On that point,if you want to call me sunshine,you won't have a problem with me calling you sunset.

On the second paragraph,having grown up in a single parent family(non working mother), with two siblings,again you have have a wild stab in the dark about how I feel about that one.

3rd paragraph.  One of reasons I am proud to be a Doncastrian is our long history of union activity,from the likes of Rodney NUPE/UNISON to some of the great locals that put so many hours into the NUR/RMT. Every union that has been on strike during this 13 year shit show has my 100% backing.
Final paragraph.  I'm confused about this one,as I can't work out if it's one of 3 reasons you posted.
A) You're trying to insult me
B) You read the room completely wrong
C)You don't really understand the significance of Neo liberalism.

Guess which ones I'm taking a wild stab at?

Quite a good post, that, which leads me to ask the question, considering your history, why would you support an upper middle class neo-liberalist tw*t like Starmer?

The fact that he's trying to expunge the left from his party tells you everything about his political stance.

As regards the people I'm describing as "us", take a good look at all the posts and replies on this thread.

Christ SS.
We're rhe absolute f#£k did you get the impression I support Starmer from?
I would however prefer to chop my member of with a rusty axe than see this bunch of neo whatever remain in power.

[Iberian Red]

Iberian - I too assumed that you must be really, really young - but I only had the things you wrote to go on.

I stand corrected.

Ha,ha,ha.
No problem Belts.
I always had trolling and likes down as being the domain of spotty adolescents.
Incredible really.

Now I’m thinking you’re really, really young again.
It was either going to be ‘troll’ or ‘bingo’, wasn’t it?

Oh you've tittled me pink.
Just one thing tho fella.
If you're going to follow me about on here,I've got to inform you it's unrequited .

[tyke1962]

Tyke


I'm not sure where you were hiding in 2019.

The type of people you're pining for ran the Labour Party then.

Ran it to the lowest opinion polls ratings in a century and the worst election performance since the 1930s.

You had the Labour party you wanted. It was a car crash. You might just have the humility to reflect on that while the current party gets on with actually, y'know winning an election.

Winning an election, and then what?

That was the lazy sort of stuff that I used to say in 1996.

Then governing more competently and fairly than this bunch of barrow boys and spivs have done. Over a long period. To make the country stronger and fairer than it is now.

That's what Labour did from 97 to 10.

Was it perfect? Of course not.

Did I agree with it all? Of course not.

But what was the alternative? That's the question that you and Tyke dodge every time.

Pinning your faith in today's problems getting fixed by yesterday's solutions which weren't really fixed either .

Completely different country today than 1997 Billy .

What's coming from the Labour Party and one your happy to go along with is that if the Tories don't like it then neither do you , that seems to be how this goes .

It doesn't much matter to me whether Labour wins or not .

It's like watching an end of season 0-0 draw between two teams with nothing to play for and I haven't an interest in either of them .

[belton rover]

Iberian - I too assumed that you must be really, really young - but I only had the things you wrote to go on.

I stand corrected.

Ha,ha,ha.
No problem Belts.
I always had trolling and likes down as being the domain of spotty adolescents.
Incredible really.

Now I’m thinking you’re really, really young again.
It was either going to be ‘troll’ or ‘bingo’, wasn’t it?

Oh you've tittled me pink.
Just one thing tho fella.
If you're going to follow me about on here,I've got to inform you it's unrequited .

I think I’ve directly responded to you in about three different exchanges.
You have a really high opinion about yourself, don’t you?

But, yes, I should know better than to respond to you at all.

I’ll try harder.

[Iberian Red]

Not at all fella.
It's just that I have  very,very low opinion of certain individuals.