Electric cars and the environment (warning cheat sheet)

[Ldr]

£180 flat rate road tax for all existing EVs from 1apr 2025.
Meanwhile low emission petrol and diesel cars currently on band A will move to band B and pay just £20.
Oh, and if you have deep pockets and fork out over 40k for one, you will pay an extra £355 per year for five years as an extra supplement. Adding over £1700 to the price of running it.
There must be an incentive to buy an EV in there somewhere?

Majority of people who are driving an EV are doing so because there's either a rather large tax advantage or they are able to charge extremely cheaply, or in most cases both.

Its cheaper. I think its a bit of a myth that anyone are doing it because it's greener

Wait til the cheap Chinese cars start flooding in next year then you'll see even more on the roads   

This 100%, I got massive incentives through the work lease scheme, scarily cheap. Nothing to do with wanting a ‘green’ car just plain old best value

[DRFC_AjA]

Likewise, super cheap. The irony being of course under the lease model in 3 years everyone will move to another new car, then another. Contributing greatly to global emissions.

The myth of net zero. Like shutting a steel furnace to make our emissions look low then just importing 

If we just build nothing in this country, stick everyone on the dole, we're net zero  (forget the outsourced construction and transportation emissions of imports)

[drfchound]

£180 flat rate road tax for all existing EVs from 1apr 2025.
Meanwhile low emission petrol and diesel cars currently on band A will move to band B and pay just £20.
Oh, and if you have deep pockets and fork out over 40k for one, you will pay an extra £355 per year for five years as an extra supplement. Adding over £1700 to the price of running it.
There must be an incentive to buy an EV in there somewhere?

That extra £355 for cars over £40k has been around for a few years NR.
I’m not sure from your post whether you knew that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That kind of is the point.

EVs SHOULD be cheaper than ICE cars as a whole life product cost, because they do far less damage to the planet. So, sensible Govt policy should make damn sure that on finances, EVs are a no brainer.

Because, much as the rabid right wants to have a Lib demon to bait and hate, people aren't really that different. Make the right thing cheaper than the wrong thing and most people will do the right thing. Make the right thing more expensive and the vast majority across the spectrum will not.

[normal rules]

That kind of is the point.

EVs SHOULD be cheaper than ICE cars as a whole life product cost, because they do far less damage to the planet. So, sensible Govt policy should make damn sure that on finances, EVs are a no brainer.

Because, much as the rabid right wants to have a Lib demon to bait and hate, people aren't really that different. Make the right thing cheaper than the wrong thing and most people will do the right thing. Make the right thing more expensive and the vast majority across the spectrum will not.

I’d be interested in some examples of “whole life product cost”. They don’t seem to advertise them down the local car dealership. I wonder why?
We were talking about it recently in our office. One of the girls I work with has an 30 old car that has done 400 thousand miles. She uses it daily. I wonder how the carbon/ green footprint of this car would compare to an ev who max life expectancy would be 10 years? At most. Cost, can of course be judged in realms of fuel cost and environment cost.

[albie]

NR,

The answer to your question about whole lifecycle costs depends upon where you are.
Costs being not just running costs, but the relevant taxation regime also all carbon costs and who pays them.

You need to know where the vehicle was made, and the carbon intensity of the inputs into the manufacturing process.
Was it made using renewable electricity or not?

Carbon Brief did a summary of these myths being misrepresented about the EV transition here;
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/

It might be useful!

[Belle_Vue]

For those forum member with an EV or plug in hybrid, what charger would you recommend for home?

[DRFC_AjA]

That kind of is the point.

EVs SHOULD be cheaper than ICE cars as a whole life product cost, because they do far less damage to the planet. So, sensible Govt policy should make damn sure that on finances, EVs are a no brainer.

Because, much as the rabid right wants to have a Lib demon to bait and hate, people aren't really that different. Make the right thing cheaper than the wrong thing and most people will do the right thing. Make the right thing more expensive and the vast majority across the spectrum will not.

Good point, but wonder should government policy be directed at subsiding mass transport rather than subsidising individual cars.

[Superspy]

For those forum member with an EV or plug in hybrid, what charger would you recommend for home?

I've got a myenergi Zappi and been happy with it. Does exactly what I need it to do - integrates well enough with my solar to dump excess generated power into the grid over summer, allows me to schedule charging for over night when the rates are cheaper in winter.

Reply #105 on this thread goes into a bit more detail about the solar charging.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=286878.90

[adamtherover]

Regardless of green issues, I can't get beyond the fact that if I wanted to do Wrexham away, let's say 250 mile roundnl trip, unless I could guarantee a charger when I got there,
I'd be sweating on range..   when my current low emission diesel does a 1000 to a tank..  and cost under 10k , not 50k!!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

For those forum member with an EV or plug in hybrid, what charger would you recommend for home?

I've got a pod point, can't grumble at all. Cable in and off we go.

[normal rules]

I’ve owned my current runaround for 4 years. I’ve done 50000 miles in it. It cost me 5 grand. Bought and paid for. No finance etc.
so pence per mile, so far, for sheer ownership is 10p. It’s easily averages 50mpg, probably nearer 60 in truth, but I’ll be very conservative here. So those 50000 miles have used 1000 gallons of fuel, or at around an average of £1.40 a litre, that’s around £4500 on fuel. Or 9 pence a mile.
So for the last 4 years, ownership and fuel have cost me 19p per mile. Added to that would be mot , insurance tax and servicing (I do my own).
Three mot at £40, two tyres at £120, insurance around £250/ year and servicing cost of around £200. Total £1100. Over 50000 miles that’s around 2p per mile. Total 21p per mile.

I’d be interested in a similar breakdown for 50000 miles in an EV.
A 50k ev is £1 per mile for pure ownership. Ten times that of my small ICE runaround. And let’s be honest, not many people go out and buy an ev outright. So the ownership costs with pcp/ finance will be higher.
I have a colleague who has a Tesla 3. She is late 40’s, clean licence, full no claims. Her insurance is over £1000 a year. She lives in a rural low risk area. Here’s a stat they won’t tell you down the local ev dealership,  claims for EVs are 25.5% more expensive compared with their internal combustion engine equivalents. EVs are also taking 14% longer to repair which is impacting premiums.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Depends on your circumstances NR.  Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper. 

On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.

I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years.  Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.

[selby]

  BFYP, that market will reduce Hertz have cancelled 20,000 Tesla cars as the residual second hand market is not there for EVs in the USA. and that will impact the private market in a couple of years.
  Disposal of spent batteries is a problem for the near future and the private sales market is reducing rapidly, down 9% for the October/November period year on year figures.
  In a fullish Doncaster Council car park in Waterdale at  the rear of the council offices  this lunch time all EV parking spaces were empty after dropping my car off at the main dealers on Wheatley Hall Road for a first service in a completely empty of customers looking at new cars sales front with a showroom full of EV's.

[Dn2Dn0]

Depends on your circumstances NR.  Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper. 

On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.

I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years.  Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.

BFYP, genuine question. You seemed to be an endorser for EVs so why do you think they don't make sense to currently own one personally? As a user of a company EV, what would put you off owning one privately. Wouldn't it depend on individual circumstances?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Depends on your circumstances NR.  Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper. 

On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.

I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years.  Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.

BFYP, genuine question. You seemed to be an endorser for EVs so why do you think they don't make sense to currently own one personally? As a user of a company EV, what would put you off owning one privately. Wouldn't it depend on individual circumstances?

Cost essentially.  I'm not going to go and spend £35k+ on a new car EV, petrol or diesel for little recourse.  If the second hand market becomes sensible I'd absolutely advocate one privately.  Great to drive, mostly easy to maintain, easy to charge and cheaper to run than a petrol/diesel.

But I just feel the depreciation on the new vehicles is way too high, far higher than on a non EV.  The company car tax on an EV is tiny (about £23 a month for a 40% tax payer) so it's a bargain.  If I could accept that as depreciation or lease value I would, but for an EV, no chance.

[normal rules]

Depends on your circumstances NR.  Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper. 

On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.

I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years.  Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.

I think you will find ev’s most definitely need servicing .

[Dn2Dn0]

Depends on your circumstances NR.  Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper. 

On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.

I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years.  Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.

BFYP, genuine question. You seemed to be an endorser for EVs so why do you think they don't make sense to currently own one personally? As a user of a company EV, what would put you off owning one privately. Wouldn't it depend on individual circumstances?

Cost essentially.  I'm not going to go and spend £35k+ on a new car EV, petrol or diesel for little recourse.  If the second hand market becomes sensible I'd absolutely advocate one privately.  Great to drive, mostly easy to maintain, easy to charge and cheaper to run than a petrol/diesel.

But I just feel the depreciation on the new vehicles is way too high, far higher than on a non EV.  The company car tax on an EV is tiny (about £23 a month for a 40% tax payer) so it's a bargain.  If I could accept that as depreciation or lease value I would, but for an EV, no chance.

Thanks for that and agree in the main, just wondered if there was any other reason. Also feels like it's still relatively fast moving technology wise. So in a very short space of time,  the current EVs could be the equivalent of a crank up ICE car.

[ravenrover]

How long before a battery change is required and how much £?

[albie]

Batteries should outlive the expected life of the car in normal use.

After being recovered from the vehicle, they can then have a second life as stationary storage capacity, like in the Tesla Powerwall domestic units.
Beyond that, they will be recycled for materials.....big money going into this sector right now.

It is a bit disappointing to see folk piping up with so many discredited myths on this.
Read the link I posted from Carbon Brief in reply 65 to get a good understanding of these issues....a lot of misinformation gets trotted out in the media.

[GazLaz]

For those forum member with an EV or plug in hybrid, what charger would you recommend for home?

I've got a pod point, can't grumble at all. Cable in and off we go.

I’ve got the same.

[DRFC_AjA]

A great video by a motoring journalist / youtuber who actually knows his stuff about cars. Not just a tw*t who thinks a car is great because it goes 0-60 reyt fast.

He's on about all that's wrong with EVs, even as an EV owner myself I agree with most. There's some positives that he's missed out. But it does go into the question of what are we doing with EVs? Building cars that are actually better for the environment or building 3 tonne massive things that have 800bhp, and are all on a lease so will be on the scrapper in about 5 yrs. Just so we can turn around and say we're "net zero". Again, conveniently ignore the fact it's built in China and shipped across the world with a whopping carbon footprint

https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?feature=shared

[ravenrover]

Chap pulled into Chatsworth CMC site in electric towing a smaller lightweight caravan. Thete is no prior warning but Chatsworth don't allow electrics  to be recharged on site. Next morning he vanished leaving his wife at the caravan, I guess he'd gone looking for a recharge point, few and far between around that part of The Peaks. We left at lunchtime and he still hadn't returned

[River Don]

https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?si=eANrczuZ3baq4AV2

The latest Harry's Garage is an interesting watch. He explains why he's given up on electric and bought a diesel range rover.

Beyond that he gives opinions on the second hand market for EVs and what needs to happen to make EVs more widely popular. He's by no means an EV sceptic.

I think he makes good points about battery life and the efficiency of EVs.

Edit:  ooops didn't notice the link is already posted. Worth a watch though.

[normal rules]

Who puts £20,000 deposit on a car?

[albie]

New data from SMMT out shows an increase in EV volumes since 2019 of 900% growth;
https://nitter.mint.lgbt/pic/orig/media%2FGGSrgWrXUAE6jBL.png

I thought some might be interested in the latest information.

[River Don]

New data from SMMT out shows an increase in EV volumes since 2019 of 900% growth;
https://nitter.mint.lgbt/pic/orig/media%2FGGSrgWrXUAE6jBL.png

I thought some might be interested in the latest information.

900% does sound like huge growth but it is over quite a long period.

BEV sales still represent fewer than 20% of new car sales annually in the UK. And most of that figure is from fleet sales, which attract the tax breaks.

The take up of BEV amongst private buyers is still low.

[albie]

Yes RD, but the rate of growth is rising on an exponential curve.

BEV is now at 21% of new sales, driven as you say by fleets taking advantage of the tax position.
Fleet sales up 29.9% year to year.

[River Don]

Does that 21% include hybrids? Was it for 2023?

The last figure I saw was 16.5% of new registrations for 2023. That was in a newspaper article, I suppose figures vary.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it but, isn't the real issue here about making public transport unavoidably the best option? Many ways to do that, tho obviously not selfishly Thatcherite enough for some. And your Clarkson wannabees will be sulking at the thought. But, this is the future.