London

[SydneyRover]

Apparently the entertainment and night time economy is bombing, not surprising with the transport costs the Labour regime in power have imposed on the place and it not being seen as safe as many would like with knife crime and muggins an epidemic.
  Plus it isn't really an English city anymore is it? and you go on holiday for a change of entertainment and its cheaper.

You are wrong again selby it's you that has to explain what the above means if it is not racist

[Herbert Anchovy]

Is it racist to say that London is becoming "non-English"?  It's a clumsy way of putting it yes and it does provide an open-goal to the usual suspects who love to leap on that kind of comment and scream "racist".

Is it racist to state the fact that since the late 90s and particularly under the years of the Blair government(s), that population diversity in London has increased at a higher rate than in any previous historical period, to such an extent that in 2011 it was reported that White-British people had become a minority in the City for the first time? I believe that trend and rate of diversification has continued since then.

A number of posters on this thread claim only to deal in facts, backed up by hard statistics. There are plenty of stats out there relating to the diversification of the London population.  I'm not sure it's racist to point out what seems to be an incontrovertible fact.

Tommy, I'm trying to get to the bottom of why some people think that London isn't an English city and so far all I've had is some vague points about English culture?

Are you saying that it's all down to race and creed? Are people of colour less English than white people? Can you only be English and adhere to English culture, if you're white? A bloke who lives near me is Scottish and has a Scottish flag in his window, but he's white. If you suggested to him that he should adhere to English culture more than he does, you'd probably get a good hiding. Is he included in this?

Despite the fact that I've given numerous, real life examples where non white people in London (who I know well) consider themselves English, it doesn't seem to be hitting home.

Maybe I just don't understand? If I've got the wrong end of the stick I'm happy to be corrected.

[Herbert Anchovy]

  I don't know Syd, you might be able to explain why you think losing its English heritage is associated with colour, as you are the one that associated it with the subject, it never entered my head.
  Your a big part of the problem, linking things that you disagree with to others being racist, insulting them,  it's your go to get out, your probably sick, go to the doctors.

Selby, I am really interested to know, specifically, why you feel that London isn't English and whether you have any personal experiences of this. For the record, I'm not looking to argue with you or anyone else about it, but it sounds like your experience is very different from what I see every single day down here so I am really curious to know what drives this?

[SydneyRover]

  I don't know Syd, you might be able to explain why you think losing its English heritage is associated with colour, as you are the one that associated it with the subject, it never entered my head.
  Your a big part of the problem, linking things that you disagree with to others being racist, insulting them,  it's your go to get out, your probably sick, go to the doctors.

Start with something simple selby, explain what English heritage is, when you've done that maybe explain what Englishness is and then maybe we can subtract that definition from what you think London used to be and we'll have an explanation.

C'mon selby, speak up, these are the terms you've used in your arguments, you must know what they mean, I'd hate to think you're all mouth no trousers.

[Mike_F]

I love visiting our capital whether that's for work, mini-breaks or Rovers awaydays. You'd struggle to find another city in the UK that has more St. George's crosses or Union Flags flying. They're everywhere.

People from all over the world have made a home in London, many of whom have come from erstwhile parts of the British Empire. It's fantastic to have such a wealth of food and music to enjoy in one place. People from numerous cultural backgrounds living for the most part very happily side by side and interacting with one another can only be a good thing as it makes us all realise that we're all just people who are broadly the same. Yes, there are extremists in any subculture but they are very much in the minority. Most people are just getting on with living their lives, providing for their families and contributing to the economy. It's not in the interests of "divide and conquer" or culture war politics to highlight this. People living normal lives and getting on with each other doesn't sell clicks or draw attention away from the serious issues of corruption. Pointing at people who look a bit different and saying "look what they're doing to your country" provides a much better foil for the avaricious few to line their pockets.

Is London (or Britain) the same as it was 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago? No it isn't. And that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Things change with the times. It's a vibrant and exciting metropolis with pockets of very traditional British culture around every corner.

If this mythical "Englishness" is some sort of dour, drab, mundane rain-shrouded city full of downtrodden "bulldog spirit" or "stiff upper lip" grit in the face of adversity as people wash down their unseasoned steak pies with pints of mild whilst surrounded by people who all look and sound the same, that's a vision of England that I don't care for. I like a pie and a pint as much as anyone but isn't it wonderful to have the world on our doorstep, an hour and a half's train ride down the ECML?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Is it racist to say that London is becoming "non-English"?  It's a clumsy way of putting it yes and it does provide an open-goal to the usual suspects who love to leap on that kind of comment and scream "racist".

Is it racist to state the fact that since the late 90s and particularly under the years of the Blair government(s), that population diversity in London has increased at a higher rate than in any previous historical period, to such an extent that in 2011 it was reported that White-British people had become a minority in the City for the first time? I believe that trend and rate of diversification has continued since then.

A number of posters on this thread claim only to deal in facts, backed up by hard statistics. There are plenty of stats out there relating to the diversification of the London population.  I'm not sure it's racist to point out what seems to be an incontrovertible fact.

My great-great grandparents were part of a very large influx of non-English economic migrants who moved to the North of England looking for work in the 1800s.

They brought with them an alien religion.

The set up their own places of worship.

They educated their kids in their own schools.

Was that social revolution a major problem? Did they make South Yorkshire villages non-English?

Only, Barnburgh, Denaby, Goldthorpe etc look pretty English to me.

I'm not entirely sure I'm getting your point.

[TommyC]

My point was/is, that it isnt racist to identify that the diversification of the London population has increased significantly in the last two decades. I didnt say it was a problem, nor did I say that I welcomed it. My point was simply aimed at those like you who immediately started screaming "racist" at the original poster for pointing something out that seems to me to be an established fact, backed up by the statistics.

"Englishness" is a pretty pointless term which is why i said it was a clumsy word to use. It can't be defined as it means different things to different people and it invariably has negative connotations anyway....things like "little Englander", Brexit, the Union flag, Tommy Robinson and the BNP etc. What we can identify however is that for the first time in history, white-British is now a minority in London. That in itself is going to lead to cultural and societal change. Some of that change may be good, some of it may be bad depending on your view of the world. But anyone who claims that it doesn't result in any societal or cultural change at all is having themselves on. Of course immigration from different cultures and backgrounds contributes to societal and cultural change.

[SydneyRover]

I hear you TC, but why not let the op explain what he means, he's been asked by plenty and given plenty of time.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Tommy, you keep referring to "white British". Apart from the bleedin obvious with using that term, are you excluding 3rd generation Irish, Dutch, Polish, Italian, Turkish, from that grouping?

[Herbert Anchovy]

My point was/is, that it isnt racist to identify that the diversification of the London population has increased significantly in the last two decades. I didnt say it was a problem, nor did I say that I welcomed it. My point was simply aimed at those like you who immediately started screaming "racist" at the original poster for pointing something out that seems to me to be an established fact, backed up by the statistics.

"Englishness" is a pretty pointless term which is why i said it was a clumsy word to use. It can't be defined as it means different things to different people and it invariably has negative connotations anyway....things like "little Englander", Brexit, the Union flag, Tommy Robinson and the BNP etc. What we can identify however is that for the first time in history, white-British is now a minority in London. That in itself is going to lead to cultural and societal change. Some of that change may be good, some of it may be bad depending on your view of the world. But anyone who claims that it doesn't result in any societal or cultural change at all is having themselves on. Of course immigration from different cultures and backgrounds contributes to societal and cultural change.

The OP very clearly said that London isn't an English city anymore. Not that it's 'non-white' (though that doesn't make sense either). So I'm trying to clarify whether the two are linked!

Is London no longer considered English because there's so many non-white people or is it down to cultural & societal changes as you hinted at? I realise that I'm unfairly trying to get an answer from you although you didn't make the OP, but I am truly baffled by this.

For the record, London has gone through significant cultural and societal changes throughout its history and I'm not sure that it's ever been defined as 'not English' in the past when these changes have occurred, so am wondering what's different now?

[TommyC]

Tommy, you keep referring to "white British". Apart from the bleedin obvious with using that term, are you excluding 3rd generation Irish, Dutch, Polish, Italian, Turkish, from that grouping?

I have no idea what you mean by "the bleedin obvious with using that term" . You'll find it as an option to tick on pretty much any equality and diversity survey you'll ever undertake and it's the term used by the ONS themselves alongside Asian British and Black British, Black Welsh, Asian Welsh etc when they undertale the census.

That aside, I believe it's actually down to what the person themself chooses to identify themself as rather than what label is given to them. I believe there are 19 ethnic groups as well as the option to write in your own. It's not for me to include or exlcude anyone!

[TommyC]

My point was/is, that it isnt racist to identify that the diversification of the London population has increased significantly in the last two decades. I didnt say it was a problem, nor did I say that I welcomed it. My point was simply aimed at those like you who immediately started screaming "racist" at the original poster for pointing something out that seems to me to be an established fact, backed up by the statistics.

"Englishness" is a pretty pointless term which is why i said it was a clumsy word to use. It can't be defined as it means different things to different people and it invariably has negative connotations anyway....things like "little Englander", Brexit, the Union flag, Tommy Robinson and the BNP etc. What we can identify however is that for the first time in history, white-British is now a minority in London. That in itself is going to lead to cultural and societal change. Some of that change may be good, some of it may be bad depending on your view of the world. But anyone who claims that it doesn't result in any societal or cultural change at all is having themselves on. Of course immigration from different cultures and backgrounds contributes to societal and cultural change.

The OP very clearly said that London isn't an English city anymore. Not that it's 'non-white' (though that doesn't make sense either). So I'm trying to clarify whether the two are linked!

Is London no longer considered English because there's so many non-white people or is it down to cultural & societal changes as you hinted at? I realise that I'm unfairly trying to get an answer from you although you didn't make the OP, but I am truly baffled by this.

For the record, London has gone through significant cultural and societal changes throughout its history and I'm not sure that it's ever been defined as 'not English' in the past when these changes have occurred, so am wondering what's different now?

Well, as you say it isnt really for me to predict what he meant. However, given he used the word "english", an appropriate place to start could be the decline in English as the first spoken language in the London population? I'm not saying I think that's a bad thing but you did ask for examples so why not start there.

[Herbert Anchovy]

My point was/is, that it isnt racist to identify that the diversification of the London population has increased significantly in the last two decades. I didnt say it was a problem, nor did I say that I welcomed it. My point was simply aimed at those like you who immediately started screaming "racist" at the original poster for pointing something out that seems to me to be an established fact, backed up by the statistics.

"Englishness" is a pretty pointless term which is why i said it was a clumsy word to use. It can't be defined as it means different things to different people and it invariably has negative connotations anyway....things like "little Englander", Brexit, the Union flag, Tommy Robinson and the BNP etc. What we can identify however is that for the first time in history, white-British is now a minority in London. That in itself is going to lead to cultural and societal change. Some of that change may be good, some of it may be bad depending on your view of the world. But anyone who claims that it doesn't result in any societal or cultural change at all is having themselves on. Of course immigration from different cultures and backgrounds contributes to societal and cultural change.

The OP very clearly said that London isn't an English city anymore. Not that it's 'non-white' (though that doesn't make sense either). So I'm trying to clarify whether the two are linked!

Is London no longer considered English because there's so many non-white people or is it down to cultural & societal changes as you hinted at? I realise that I'm unfairly trying to get an answer from you although you didn't make the OP, but I am truly baffled by this.

For the record, London has gone through significant cultural and societal changes throughout its history and I'm not sure that it's ever been defined as 'not English' in the past when these changes have occurred, so am wondering what's different now?

Well, as you say it isnt really for me to predict what he meant. However, given he used the word "english", an appropriate place to start could be the decline in English as the first spoken language in the London population? I'm not saying I think that's a bad thing but you did ask for examples so why not start there.

You think that the driver for considering London to be Non-English could be down to the decline in English as a first language? That's an interesting concept. Everyone whom I know that doesn't have English as the language that they use at home has English as a very good second language. Some people don't that's true though. Using that logic though, there's towns and cities in Canada that aren't Canadian because their first language is French! Then of course you have those countries where English has taken over from the native tongue. English is the first language of Accra in Ghana, but nobody would dispute it's a Ghanaian city would they?

Let's cut to the chase here - could it be that some people feel that London isn't an English city anymore because (shock horror!!) it has people who are a different colour, religion and creed?

[Herbert Anchovy]

I'm interested to know which are aspects of English culture that some people feel they're not able to do in London?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Societies change. They always have and they always will. What always comes out the other end is different from what went in. Always been the way. Some people embrace that, some feel threatened by it.

https://youtu.be/a17duTUK6qw?feature=shared

[Sprotyrover]

Societies change. They always have and they always will. What always comes out the other end is different from what went in. Always been the way. Some people embrace that, some feel threatened by it.

https://youtu.be/a17duTUK6qw?feature=shared

How dare you Billy!
I have just PMSL!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a17duTUK6qw

[BillyStubbsTears]

Societies change. They always have and they always will. What always comes out the other end is different from what went in. Always been the way. Some people embrace that, some feel threatened by it.

https://youtu.be/a17duTUK6qw?feature=shared

How dare you Billy!
I have just PMSL!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a17duTUK6qw

My pleasure Sproty.

Several competitors there for the best line in comedy history.

"Anglo Saxons! If you come over here, learn to speak the f**king language!"

"400 million years ago when the first fish crawled out of the sea onto the land. OUR land!"

"Bloody Indians and Pakistanis! Coming over here! Inventing us a national cuisine."

[Bentley Bullet]

Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!

[TommyC]

Societies change. They always have and they always will. What always comes out the other end is different from what went in. Always been the way. Some people embrace that, some feel threatened by it.

https://youtu.be/a17duTUK6qw?feature=shared

This is true.

However I do have to ask,  do you believe we should strive to conserve, maintain, preserve or protect any aspects of our history, culture and society at all? Or is everything fair game in the name of progression? Not having a pop, i'm genuinely interested to hear your take.

Nobody doubts that societies change. The historical changes to society have historically taken place over long periods of time and have been a gradual process. Surely you  can acknowledge that mass immigration seen on the significantly elevated levels of the last 20 years in such large numbers over a relatively short space of time, whilst might bring economic benefit and cultural enrichment to some, might also have negative social consequences in other areas? 

[Not Now Kato]

Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!

Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tommy.

Serious question here. What do you mean by "OUR history, culture and society"?

Define that and I'll have a go at answering your question.

[TommyC]

Tommy.

Serious question here. What do you mean by "OUR history, culture and society"?

Define that and I'll have a go at answering your question.

Well, by "our" I meant as citizens of this country.

Surely you agree that all countries have societal norms and characteristics that gives them their own personality? Or are all countries of the world the same to you?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?

[Bentley Bullet]

Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!

Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.

Rubbish. The loony Lefties condemned it, and they STILL do on this forum!

[TommyC]

I don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?

Okay, I believe that in "British" society we do not discriminate against women and homosexuals. Would you agree?

[TonySoprano]

I’m genuinely interested to know why anyone would claim that London isn’t an English city anymore? What is behind this, specifically? Is it non-white people living here, the number of different languages spoken, maybe different religions? Or could it be the number of foreign cars on the roads, maybe it’s too many Chinese takeaways, or possibly that many folk who do the most ‘menial’ jobs are of foreign descent?

I’m not going to accuse anyone of being racist but I’d like to know, specifically, what it is about London that makes it ‘no longer English’?

Oh, and for the record, I’m sure that every single person of colour that I know and living in London classes themselves as English. They get up and go to work, they like to relax in front of the telly, some of them like a pint, most go to the football (West Ham & Spurs mostly), they want England to win at the cricket (There you go Norman Tebbitt), and they joined in the street parties for the Queens birthday. A couple of them even served in the armed forces too. They just happen to have skin that’s tinted a bit differently to mine.

So, if I need to tell them that their city isn’t English anymore then I’d appreciate a bit of rationale if possible?

Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds, and religions.

If that makes me a racist to Billy and his cohort of lefty bedwetting snowflakes on this forum, then I couldn't care less.

In the real world, talking to sane moderate people is where you find the real consensus.

People like them live in a tiny microcosm, reading the guardian and socialist social media channels, talking to other like minded people on their hard left forums, it just serves to fuel their hard left radical views.
So when they poke their heads out into the real world, they become shocked that regular people don't think the same way.

So no london isn't an English city, its a global city.

Englishness is being pushed out, like the celts were by the saxons.

I'll finish by asking just how diversity is our strength? As the mayor of said city said once after a terror attack.

Sorry TS, but I don’t really understand your point. Are you saying that people should be a specific colour, creed or religion to be English? I have friends in South London who are Asian Muslims and born in London. They absolutely class themselves as English. I have a black friend who’s a Buddhist and born in East London. Do they make London less English?

I didn't say anything of the sort, why are you bringing colour into it ? Isn't that racist?

[Herbert Anchovy]

Stewart Lee. A 21st-century 'comedian' who makes a living out of acting the racist bigot and making the Loony Left laugh. The same Loony Left that condemned comedian Alf Garnett for doing EXACTLY the same in the 60s!

Actually BB, it was the Rabid Right who condemned Alf Garnett, as they failed to see that he was taking the piss out of racists and bigots - showing them up for what they were/still are.

Rubbish. The loony Lefties condemned it, and they STILL do on this forum!

I used to enjoy Alf Garnett. It showed right wing bigots for what they are. Both Johnny Speight and Warren Mitchel were Socialist who wanted to hold a mirror up to these morons who made up much of the working class at the time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?

Okay, I believe that in "British" society we do not discriminate against women and homosexuals. Would you agree?

Legally yes, in very recent times. "Culturally" I'd say there's a substantial minority of the population who do think homosexual people are ",different" in a negative sense.

Are we defining "culture" as "what an undefined majority thinks"?

[Herbert Anchovy]

I’m genuinely interested to know why anyone would claim that London isn’t an English city anymore? What is behind this, specifically? Is it non-white people living here, the number of different languages spoken, maybe different religions? Or could it be the number of foreign cars on the roads, maybe it’s too many Chinese takeaways, or possibly that many folk who do the most ‘menial’ jobs are of foreign descent?

I’m not going to accuse anyone of being racist but I’d like to know, specifically, what it is about London that makes it ‘no longer English’?

Oh, and for the record, I’m sure that every single person of colour that I know and living in London classes themselves as English. They get up and go to work, they like to relax in front of the telly, some of them like a pint, most go to the football (West Ham & Spurs mostly), they want England to win at the cricket (There you go Norman Tebbitt), and they joined in the street parties for the Queens birthday. A couple of them even served in the armed forces too. They just happen to have skin that’s tinted a bit differently to mine.

So, if I need to tell them that their city isn’t English anymore then I’d appreciate a bit of rationale if possible?

Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds, and religions.

If that makes me a racist to Billy and his cohort of lefty bedwetting snowflakes on this forum, then I couldn't care less.

In the real world, talking to sane moderate people is where you find the real consensus.

People like them live in a tiny microcosm, reading the guardian and socialist social media channels, talking to other like minded people on their hard left forums, it just serves to fuel their hard left radical views.
So when they poke their heads out into the real world, they become shocked that regular people don't think the same way.

So no london isn't an English city, its a global city.

Englishness is being pushed out, like the celts were by the saxons.

I'll finish by asking just how diversity is our strength? As the mayor of said city said once after a terror attack.

Sorry TS, but I don’t really understand your point. Are you saying that people should be a specific colour, creed or religion to be English? I have friends in South London who are Asian Muslims and born in London. They absolutely class themselves as English. I have a black friend who’s a Buddhist and born in East London. Do they make London less English?

I didn't say anything of the sort

I asked why London isn’t English anymore and you replied

“Because of the vast and diverse amount of different cultures, colours, creeds and religions “ which seems to suggest that we should only have one of each in London for it to be English.

[TommyC]

I don't believe that Tommy. At least not as a clear, unquestioned homogeneous mass. I think individuals and small communities have concepts of what their "culture" is. But I think it's a fallacy, and often a dangerous fallacy to insist that nations have a clear "culture".

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Maybe you could persuade me by giving me some concrete examples of what you think defines our "national culture"?

Okay, I believe that in "British" society we do not discriminate against women and homosexuals. Would you agree?

Legally yes, in very recent times. "Culturally" I'd say there's a substantial minority of the population who do think homosexual people are ",different" in a negative sense.

Are we defining "culture" as "what an undefined majority thinks"?

No, what I'm really getting at is the crazy situation of migration of certain "cultures" who have beliefs that are somewhat extreme by comparison with where we are as a society.

It's like that little prick Owen Jones marching for Palestine when the first thing they'd do, should he visit there, would be to throw him off the nearest tower block.

To have concern about immigration of religion and cultures that are actually more oppressive and extreme than where "British" society currently is at is concerning to many people.