Brexit deal

[wilts rover]

I assume that the U.K. was party to the negotiations on these treaties so why can’t we just ‘ copy and paste’ them as we have done with the trade deal with Japan?

Good question HA. I suggest you read the article I have linked to and then get back to me.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

Same here BB. I voted to leave and, while I knew we’d have to pay something, I thought that we’d then just walk away. My suspicions were raised when, immediately after the result was announced, the EU forbid any other member state to begin trade talks with the UK, despite a number of countries wanting to begin their own trade negotiations immediately.

No, you found out about it after the referendum. It's always been written into the terms of EU trade negotiations that the EU negotiates as a bloc and not individually.  You're blaming the EU for your own ignorance.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. If you feel the club you are a member of is not worth the benefit because of the conditions and restrictions then you should have the right to leave. We were given that right and voted to leave.

What do you think to Theresa May's deal?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think there's something lost in translation there HA. Fox has been negotiating for two years.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

EXACTLY! It's not hard to understand is it?

And that I am afraid is where you bought the lie. When/if we leave the EU we dont actually leave one thing. What we actually will do is break 759 international treaties that we have negotiated as an EU member and we will not now be a party to as an non-EU member. Unless and until we re-negotiate them as an individual member. I posted a link on the other thread to a fascinating talk I attended recently about this.

These treaties cover vast swathes of our life on topics such as:
aircraft movement
use of the channel tunnel
movement of radioactive material (x-ray plates and power station fuel)
movement of medicines
movement of animals
access to fishing grounds
landing of fish
recognition of driving licences
access to criminal databases

Leaving the EU without a deal doesn't mean trading on WTO terms, it means normal life will stop.

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

I assume that the U.K. was party to the negotiations on these treaties so why can’t we just ‘ copy and paste’ them as we have done with the trade deal with Japan?

Because we'd need the other side to do so as well? And that's in the best circumstances, when the other signatory isn't going to use the opportunity to screw us when we don't have the economic weight of the EU behind us and because we'll be more desperate than them for a trade deal....because we're going to lose trade treaties with just about the whole world: they ain't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Now we're getting somewhere.

Do you agree that, if you leave a club, (especially after bad mouthing the committee for 30 years) and then ask if you can continue to use the cheap bar in the clubhouse, the committee might be within its rights to ask you to pay your subs and stick to the dress code?

May's deal? It's a shambles. It gives us a worse economic situation than we currently have while requiring us to follow most of the rules. But have no say in them.

But that's the best deal you're going to get if you insist on leaving. The alternative of leaving with No Deal would be calamitous.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

EXACTLY! It's not hard to understand is it?

And that I am afraid is where you bought the lie. When/if we leave the EU we dont actually leave one thing. What we actually will do is break 759 international treaties that we have negotiated as an EU member and we will not now be a party to as an non-EU member. Unless and until we re-negotiate them as an individual member. I posted a link on the other thread to a fascinating talk I attended recently about this.

These treaties cover vast swathes of our life on topics such as:
aircraft movement
use of the channel tunnel
movement of radioactive material (x-ray plates and power station fuel)
movement of medicines
movement of animals
access to fishing grounds
landing of fish
recognition of driving licences
access to criminal databases

Leaving the EU without a deal doesn't mean trading on WTO terms, it means normal life will stop.

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

I assume that the U.K. was party to the negotiations on these treaties so why can’t we just ‘ copy and paste’ them as we have done with the trade deal with Japan?

Because we'd need the other side to do so as well? And that's in the best circumstances.

I don't do emojis, but if I did, there'd be one of someone banging their head against a wall here.

HA

Do you really think every country in the world is going to give us (a state of 65million people with a GDP of about £2trn) exactly the same terms that they gave the EU (450million, £12trn)?

Don't you think they might just probe our weak points and look for better terms for themselves?

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, I don't think the leavers voted to remain in the bar, cheap beer or not. They wanted to leave without conditions.

[IDM]

So do you then agree that leave voters haven’t got what they voted for.? And that had the conditions for leaving been made clear at the time of voting, that would have been fairer regardless of the outcome.?

[Glyn_Wigley]

BST, I don't think the leavers voted to remain in the bar, cheap beer or not. They wanted to leave without conditions.

Then they've been suckered then, haven't they?

[Bentley Bullet]

Of course the leave voters haven't got what they voted for. They voted to leave and they are being denied what they voted for. Not only has their choice to leave been replaced by a policy to only half leave, they are being threatened with another referendum that could result in not leaving at all. 

[Herbert Anchovy]

I think there's something lost in translation there HA. Fox has been negotiating for two years.

The evidence is there for you Billy. A direct quote from the EU trade commissioner. If we have been negotiating then it’s clearly despite the EU regulations and not because of them

[Herbert Anchovy]

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

EXACTLY! It's not hard to understand is it?

And that I am afraid is where you bought the lie. When/if we leave the EU we dont actually leave one thing. What we actually will do is break 759 international treaties that we have negotiated as an EU member and we will not now be a party to as an non-EU member. Unless and until we re-negotiate them as an individual member. I posted a link on the other thread to a fascinating talk I attended recently about this.

These treaties cover vast swathes of our life on topics such as:
aircraft movement
use of the channel tunnel
movement of radioactive material (x-ray plates and power station fuel)
movement of medicines
movement of animals
access to fishing grounds
landing of fish
recognition of driving licences
access to criminal databases

Leaving the EU without a deal doesn't mean trading on WTO terms, it means normal life will stop.

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

I assume that the U.K. was party to the negotiations on these treaties so why can’t we just ‘ copy and paste’ them as we have done with the trade deal with Japan?

Because we'd need the other side to do so as well? And that's in the best circumstances.

I don't do emojis, but if I did, there'd be one of someone banging their head against a wall here.

HA

Do you really think every country in the world is going to give us (a state of 65million people with a GDP of about £2trn) exactly the same terms that they gave the EU (450million, £12trn)?

Don't you think they might just probe our weak points and look for better terms for themselves?

Billy, 

Your condescending, patronising and sometimes disrespectful attitude to any opinion that contradicts yours has worn thin. Do you not think that I read your posts and ‘want to bang my head against the wall?’ Of course I do, regularly. However, I respect yours and other people’s opinions. You may be right or I may be right but do you know what? Nobody, not even you has a real clue what’s going to happen. Yet, you seem unable to grasp this fact and sometimes, just occasionally Billy, when someone says something that you don’t like/agree with you come across as a self centred know all. Please, don’t be a smart arse with me.

This is one debate that I’m checking out of

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think there's something lost in translation there HA. Fox has been negotiating for two years.

The evidence is there for you Billy. A direct quote from the EU trade commissioner. If we have been negotiating then it’s clearly despite the EU regulations and not because of them

So they haven't stopped us then?

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

I apologise if I've come across as a smart arse. If I have, it's the result of several years of engaging with this type of argument on an issue that is going to make this country a much worse place for my kids to grow up in.

Misinformed or misinterpreted arguments about what the EU does or doesn't do. About what our position in the world will be.

I've tried discussing this politely for a long time and rarely got engagement. So yeah, I'm letting my frustration boil over. Because I'm seeing no engagement from Leave supporters about the extent of the crisis that they have topped us into. Just repeats over and over and over again of zombie arguments. Ones that have been countered over and over and over again and which ought to have been killed off, but which keep being ressurected.

I was politely pointing out 2 years ago that there was no way that we could walk away from the EU without screwing up the Irish border issue. I was called a Remoaner. I was called a Project Fear monger. I was called a condescending t**t.

And here we are, two years later with people still insisting we should walk away and still not engaging with the facts.

So, to be honest, I'm tired of being polite.

[Boomstick]

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

EXACTLY! It's not hard to understand is it?

And that I am afraid is where you bought the lie. When/if we leave the EU we dont actually leave one thing. What we actually will do is break 759 international treaties that we have negotiated as an EU member and we will not now be a party to as an non-EU member. Unless and until we re-negotiate them as an individual member. I posted a link on the other thread to a fascinating talk I attended recently about this.

These treaties cover vast swathes of our life on topics such as:
aircraft movement
use of the channel tunnel
movement of radioactive material (x-ray plates and power station fuel)
movement of medicines
movement of animals
access to fishing grounds
landing of fish
recognition of driving licences
access to criminal databases

Leaving the EU without a deal doesn't mean trading on WTO terms, it means normal life will stop.

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

I assume that the U.K. was party to the negotiations on these treaties so why can’t we just ‘ copy and paste’ them as we have done with the trade deal with Japan?

Because we'd need the other side to do so as well? And that's in the best circumstances.

I don't do emojis, but if I did, there'd be one of someone banging their head against a wall here.

HA

Do you really think every country in the world is going to give us (a state of 65million people with a GDP of about £2trn) exactly the same terms that they gave the EU (450million, £12trn)?

Don't you think they might just probe our weak points and look for better terms for themselves?

Billy, 

Your condescending, patronising and sometimes disrespectful attitude to any opinion that contradicts yours has worn thin. Do you not think that I read your posts and ‘want to bang my head against the wall?’ Of course I do, regularly. However, I respect yours and other people’s opinions. You may be right or I may be right but do you know what? Nobody, not even you has a real clue what’s going to happen. Yet, you seem unable to grasp this fact and sometimes, just occasionally Billy, when someone says something that you don’t like/agree with you come across as a self centred know all. Please, don’t be a smart arse with me.

This is one debate that I’m checking out of

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

EXACTLY! It's not hard to understand is it?

And that I am afraid is where you bought the lie. When/if we leave the EU we dont actually leave one thing. What we actually will do is break 759 international treaties that we have negotiated as an EU member and we will not now be a party to as an non-EU member. Unless and until we re-negotiate them as an individual member. I posted a link on the other thread to a fascinating talk I attended recently about this.

These treaties cover vast swathes of our life on topics such as:
aircraft movement
use of the channel tunnel
movement of radioactive material (x-ray plates and power station fuel)
movement of medicines
movement of animals
access to fishing grounds
landing of fish
recognition of driving licences
access to criminal databases

Leaving the EU without a deal doesn't mean trading on WTO terms, it means normal life will stop.

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

I assume that the U.K. was party to the negotiations on these treaties so why can’t we just ‘ copy and paste’ them as we have done with the trade deal with Japan?

Because we'd need the other side to do so as well? And that's in the best circumstances.

I don't do emojis, but if I did, there'd be one of someone banging their head against a wall here.

HA

Do you really think every country in the world is going to give us (a state of 65million people with a GDP of about £2trn) exactly the same terms that they gave the EU (450million, £12trn)?

Don't you think they might just probe our weak points and look for better terms for themselves?

Billy, 

Your condescending, patronising and sometimes disrespectful attitude to any opinion that contradicts yours has worn thin. Do you not think that I read your posts and ‘want to bang my head against the wall?’ Of course I do, regularly. However, I respect yours and other people’s opinions. You may be right or I may be right but do you know what? Nobody, not even you has a real clue what’s going to happen. Yet, you seem unable to grasp this fact and sometimes, just occasionally Billy, when someone says something that you don’t like/agree with you come across as a self centred know all. Please, don’t be a smart arse with me.

This is one debate that I’m checking out of

Don't give in to bullys like that. He won't accept anyone elses opinion, but doesn't mean no one else will.
This forum needs balance from his self centred, narrow minded ramblings.

[Boomstick]

HA

I apologise if I've come across as a smart arse. If I have, it's the result of several years of engaging with this type of argument on a issue that is going to make this country a much worse place for my kids to grow up in.

Misinformed or misinterpreted arguments about what the EU does or doesn't do. About what our position in the world will be.

I've tried discussing this politely for a long time and rarely got engagement. So yeah, I'm letting my frustration boil over. Because I'm seeing no engagement from Leave supporters about the extent of the crisis that they have topped us into. Just repeats over and over and over again of zombie arguments. Ones that have been countered over and over and over again and which ought to have been killed off, but which keep being ressurected.

I was politely pointing out 2 years ago that there was no way that we could walk away from the EU without screwing up the Irish border issue. I was called a Remoaner. I was called a Project Fear monger. I was called a condescending t**t.

And here we are, two years later with people still insisting we should walk away and still not engaging with the facts.

So, to be honest, I'm tired of being polite.

Not f**king once have you been polite,
You refuse to accept any opinion that differs to your self centred, narrow minded, over inflated opinions.

When someone disagrees with you, you attack and bully them, they eventually give in. Because they simply don't have the time and energy to argue with a non-entity on an off topic football forum.
Which leads me to believe this is your only outlet, perhaps if you engaged in debate in the real world, you may come to accept that people have an opinion that differs to your own .

[tommy toes]

To defend BST his posts are littered with evidence from everywhere to back up his argument.
Yours are just you flying by the seat of your pants.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BS

Go back and look through the other thread. To the bit where we, you and I, talked about the need to be civil in the discussions.

And in the very next post, you called someone who disagreed with you a Remoaner.

And I asked you to stop using that term. And you continued over and over and over again.

Don't come the moral high ground act now.

[bedale rover]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion
But then they must be able to defend that opinion or change it when it is clear that that opinion is built on sand
That's what debate is all about
Which is why we have information to enable decision making
But sometimes hindsight is the acid test

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's a big difference between respecting someone's right to hold an opinion (which is a right that everyone has) and respecting the opinion.

I think this is where the confusion stems from.

No one has the right to demand that their opinion is respected. You earn that right by justifying it against facts. And the to-ing and fro-ing of arguing the case can get a bit robust.

It's a pretty basic tenet of being an adult that if you have an opinion, you need to be prepared to defend it.

Alternatively, if someone argues with your opinion, you can call them a Remoaner Billy No Mates if it makes you feel better.

[Bentley Bullet]

To be fair there are far more offensive posters than BST. He does get hot under the collar like the rest of us, but his conduct is generally acceptable, unlike some whose default setting starts at disrespectful.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You can b*llocks with the soft soap BB.

[Bentley Bullet]

I didn't say you were good, BST, I just said that others were worse.

I'm good.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like I said. You can b*llocks.

[Bentley Bullet]

Yes, you're right BST. It didn't feel right agreeing with you.

b*llocks!

[BillyStubbsTears]

It WAS one of the more unnerving experiences I've had in here BB.

Keep your b*llocks out of it though. You won't win that one.

[Bentley Bullet]

I actually stuck up for you once in here. Someone told me you weren't fit to sleep with Maggie Thatcher. I told 'em you were.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye. I'd rather argue with her than you thought. She was a bit less intransigent.

[Bentley Bullet]

It's not really me that you have to convince. Remember I voted to remain. I'm trying to make the best of a democratic decision. We are all leavers until someone says different and we'd be better going forward united, that's all.