Brexit Dividend

[Glyn_Wigley]

Serious question here but wasn’t the vote back in 2016 to leave or remain?
I don’t recall there being an option available to leave but to stay in the CU and SM.

Just like there wasn't an option to leave the SM or CU either. It wasn't voted on so there was no mandate for either option.

And that is the main reason there should have been a second referendum so that whatever option the government decided shpould have got that mandate from the British people.

[drfchound]

So Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit  mandate to leave the SM?

Run it by me how that logic goes.

As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .

Simple as that .

Simple being the operative word.

What was the other option Glyn, apart from remain of course.

Leave the EU but remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. I'd have been extremely happy with that as an outcome of a No vote I'd been warning about the consequences of leaving the SM and CU well before the referendum took place.  But I got told I didn't know what I was talking about, or smeared as being Project Fear.

That was the other option, and it wouldn't have been contrary to the Referendum result.

Yes, I understand what you mean but was that an option when we voted.  I only remember Leave or Renain being the options.

[tyke1962]

Even one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.

Heroes ??

That's interesting given I didn't emigrate to the other side of the world to settle in a country that's had a right wing government for 20 of the last 26 years and with it some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world .

Makes you wonder who your heroes are Syd .

Maybe you're not a racist but you appear to be a xenophobe tyke and therefore not acceptable here so that bit's academic.

Unfortunately Syd those are the kind of playing the last card retorts that make you look like a complete idiot when it comes to political debate , instead of playing an ace you played the Joker .

The politics of the so called Progressive Left which is the tribe you tend to stick your hat on are the people of " the right thing to do " or " it's the decent thing to do " when it comes to the subject of immigration .

Except the " Right Thing To Do " isn't necessarily right politically .

Immigration also comes with problems .

The EU policy of open borders I find extremely dehumanising , a pool of 450m workers available to the top hats across Europe the majority of the cheap Labour variety lends itself to the citizens of anywhere ready to move around Europe filling in market shortages so the man with the Top hat on continues to keep the majority of the wealth created for himself without so much as leaving his top floor office .

Why should you expect your morning coffee on the High Street to be prepared for you by a migrant , is that your reality ? .

This trend then places downward pressure on wages , when there is an abundance of anything the price goes down , basic economics .

Not only that it then creates a lack of enthusiasm in governments , you could even call it laziness to not skill up and train it's workforce .

I've mentioned in the past the pressure it creates on our NHS , schools and housing I've no need to underline that .

So " The Decent Thing To Do  "  doesn't necessarily reconcile with reality and can make things worse .

I'll actually take the xenophobic comment on the chin because it says much more about you than it does me .

[Glyn_Wigley]

So Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit  mandate to leave the SM?

Run it by me how that logic goes.

As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .

Simple as that .

Simple being the operative word.

What was the other option Glyn, apart from remain of course.

Leave the EU but remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. I'd have been extremely happy with that as an outcome of a No vote I'd been warning about the consequences of leaving the SM and CU well before the referendum took place.  But I got told I didn't know what I was talking about, or smeared as being Project Fear.

That was the other option, and it wouldn't have been contrary to the Referendum result.

Yes, I understand what you mean but was that an option when we voted.  I only remember Leave or Renain being the options.

And neither of those options gave any mandate at all about the CU or SM. Tyke is trying to BS everybody that it did.

[drfchound]

Serious question here but wasn’t the vote back in 2016 to leave or remain?
I don’t recall there being an option available to leave but to stay in the CU and SM.

Just like there wasn't an option to leave the SM or CU either. It wasn't voted on so there was no mandate for either option.

And that is the main reason there should have been a second referendum so that whatever option the government decided shpould have got that mandate from the British people.

Glyn, I have just seen this post of yours.
The reason I asked what other options there were besides Leave or Remain is that you appeared to be disagreeing with tyke when he said that the options were simple.

Apologies if I misunderstood what you meant.
I voted remain by the way but have had to come to terms with the leave vote winning.
No point in people continuing to whine about it, we are where we are and have to deal with it.

[Branton Red]

The claim that the 2016 referendum decision was not a mandate to leave the Single Market is the single worst, most invidious lie in recent British political history.

A lie that doesn't just threaten an overturn, by stealth, of a democratic vote but citizen's faith in politicians and democracy and faith in the purest form of democracy - the referendum.

For those with foggy memories the historical evidence from the referendum campaign is clear. Let's take, for instance, interviews on the UK's premier political interview program of the time the Andrew Marr show: -

With leader of the Remain campaign David Cameron 12/6/16: Cameron "What the British public would be voting for, if we leave, would be to leave the EU and leave the Single Market"

De facto leader of the Leave campaign Boris Johnson 5/6/16: Marr "I had Michael Gove in that chair and I asked
after Brexit will we be in the Single Market yes or no. He said no". Johnson "And he was right". Marr "So we won't be in the EU Single Market?" Johnson "Absolutely".

To ignore, forget or misremember this evidence and claim otherwise to meet a political agenda is nothing short of despicable. To campaign to rejoin, without a referendum, the Single Market on the basis of this pernicious lie is equally despicable. The very epitome of 'post-truth'.

I have no problem with people who campaigned or voted to Remain in the EU, though I disagreed with them. I'd have no problem with people campaigning for a referendum to rejoin the EU. That is the honest, decent path Remainers/Rejoiners should have the moral courage and respect for democracy to follow.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The claim that the 2016 referendum decision was not a mandate to leave the Single Market is the single worst, most invidious lie in recent British political history.

A lie that doesn't just threaten an overturn, by stealth, of a democratic vote but citizen's faith in politicians and democracy and faith in the purest form of democracy - the referendum.

For those with foggy memories the historical evidence from the referendum campaign is clear. Let's take, for instance, interviews on the UK's premier political interview program of the time the Andrew Marr show: -

With leader of the Remain campaign David Cameron 12/6/16: Cameron "What the British public would be voting for, if we leave, would be to leave the EU and leave the Single Market"

De facto leader of the Leave campaign Boris Johnson 5/6/16: Marr "I had Michael Gove in that chair and I asked
after Brexit will we be in the Single Market yes or no. He said no". Johnson "And he was right". Marr "So we won't be in the EU Single Market?" Johnson "Absolutely".

To ignore, forget or misremember this evidence and claim otherwise to meet a political agenda is nothing short of despicable. To campaign to rejoin, without a referendum, the Single Market on the basis of this pernicious lie is equally despicable. The very epitome of 'post-truth'.

I have no problem with people who campaigned or voted to Remain in the EU, though I disagreed with them. I'd have no problem with people campaigning for a referendum to rejoin the EU. That is the honest, decent path Remainers/Rejoiners should have the moral courage and respect for democracy to follow.

So when, before the referendum, Farage, Johnson and lots of others campaigning for the Leave vote were saying that it didn't mean that we would leave the SM and that the Norwegian option (ie in the SM but not the EU), you knew they were lying to you.

Why didn't you tell the rest of us that you knew they were lying?

[tyke1962]

So Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit  mandate to leave the SM?

Run it by me how that logic goes.

As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .

Simple as that .

Simple being the operative word.

What was the other option Glyn, apart from remain of course.

Leave the EU but remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. I'd have been extremely happy with that as an outcome of a No vote I'd been warning about the consequences of leaving the SM and CU well before the referendum took place.  But I got told I didn't know what I was talking about, or smeared as being Project Fear.

That was the other option, and it wouldn't have been contrary to the Referendum result.

Yes, I understand what you mean but was that an option when we voted.  I only remember Leave or Renain being the options.

And neither of those options gave any mandate at all about the CU or SM. Tyke is trying to BS everybody that it did.

Unfortunately Glyn it's my opinion that it was yourself who were subject to BS by the politicians and Establishment as soon as the result came through .

This talk emerged following the confirmation of the result and the narrative was changed , changed to leaving in name only if they could get away with it .

Two options

Do you want to remain in the EU ? , which meant every aspect of EU membership .

So what is the exact opposite of that in the second option then ?

Do you want to leave the EU ?

I mean c'mon how simple do you want it ?

[SydneyRover]

Even one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.

Heroes ??

That's interesting given I didn't emigrate to the other side of the world to settle in a country that's had a right wing government for 20 of the last 26 years and with it some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world .

Makes you wonder who your heroes are Syd .

Maybe you're not a racist but you appear to be a xenophobe tyke and therefore not acceptable here so that bit's academic.

Unfortunately Syd those are the kind of playing the last card retorts that make you look like a complete idiot when it comes to political debate , instead of playing an ace you played the Joker .

The politics of the so called Progressive Left which is the tribe you tend to stick your hat on are the people of " the right thing to do " or " it's the decent thing to do " when it comes to the subject of immigration .

Except the " Right Thing To Do " isn't necessarily right politically .

Immigration also comes with problems .

The EU policy of open borders I find extremely dehumanising , a pool of 450m workers available to the top hats across Europe the majority of the cheap Labour variety lends itself to the citizens of anywhere ready to move around Europe filling in market shortages so the man with the Top hat on continues to keep the majority of the wealth created for himself without so much as leaving his top floor office .

Why should you expect your morning coffee on the High Street to be prepared for you by a migrant , is that your reality ? .

This trend then places downward pressure on wages , when there is an abundance of anything the price goes down , basic economics .

Not only that it then creates a lack of enthusiasm in governments , you could even call it laziness to not skill up and train it's workforce .

I've mentioned in the past the pressure it creates on our NHS , schools and housing I've no need to underline that .

So " The Decent Thing To Do  "  doesn't necessarily reconcile with reality and can make things worse .

I'll actually take the xenophobic comment on the chin because it says much more about you than it does me .

Maybe then you shouldn't throw insults around if you're so thinned skinned tyke and while you're at it tell me what isn't xenophobic about discounting someone's views be cause of where they happen to live, you ape others on this site have been doing it for some time. It's uncanny how they have similar opinions.

This is regardless that your argument is baseless and fact free. That everything you apparently stand for gets washed away because of your vote or non-vote doesn't seem to register with you at all. With an tanking economy, how is that going to help those on the bottom rung?

Why don't you explain how your vote has changed Britain for the better and why you didn't see any of this slow train wreck happening, it was predicted. Please try and keep it simple old chap.

[Branton Red]

So when, before the referendum, Farage, Johnson and lots of others campaigning for the Leave vote were saying that it didn't mean that we would leave the SM and that the Norwegian option (ie in the SM but not the EU), you knew they were lying to you.

Please provide evidence of this being said by prominent Leave campaigners during the the official campaign period for the 2016 referendum from 15 April 2016 until the day of the poll on 23 June 2016 to support your point.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Unfortunately Glyn it's my opinion that it was yourself who were subject to BS by the politicians and Establishment as soon as the result came through .

This talk emerged following the confirmation of the result and the narrative was changed , changed to leaving in name only if they could get away with it .

Two options

Do you want to remain in the EU ? , which meant every aspect of EU membership .

So what is the exact opposite of that in the second option then ?

Do you want to leave the EU ?

I mean c'mon how simple do you want it ?

You've got two problems with that latest slice of BS.

Firstly, I wasn't influenced by 'the Establishment' after the result when I was warning people on here about it before the result! And even then it was because of my experience as an International Trade Officer and not 'the Establishment'.

Secondly, membership of the SM and CU are not an aspect of EU membership. Just ask Norway and Switzerland.

[wilts rover]

Branton - your evidence that the Leave campaign(s) were adamant that a No Vote meant leaving the CU & SM is: the Remain Campaign and that noted purveyor of truth & honesty, Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson - saying something different to one tv programme that he said in another.

You must have loads more than that if it was so clear?

There is a Fact Check saying they rarely mention it and weren't clear when they did to help you:

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

[BillyStubbsTears]

The claim that the 2016 referendum decision was not a mandate to leave the Single Market is the single worst, most invidious lie in recent British political history.

A lie that doesn't just threaten an overturn, by stealth, of a democratic vote but citizen's faith in politicians and democracy and faith in the purest form of democracy - the referendum.

For those with foggy memories the historical evidence from the referendum campaign is clear. Let's take, for instance, interviews on the UK's premier political interview program of the time the Andrew Marr show: -

With leader of the Remain campaign David Cameron 12/6/16: Cameron "What the British public would be voting for, if we leave, would be to leave the EU and leave the Single Market"

De facto leader of the Leave campaign Boris Johnson 5/6/16: Marr "I had Michael Gove in that chair and I asked
after Brexit will we be in the Single Market yes or no. He said no". Johnson "And he was right". Marr "So we won't be in the EU Single Market?" Johnson "Absolutely".

To ignore, forget or misremember this evidence and claim otherwise to meet a political agenda is nothing short of despicable. To campaign to rejoin, without a referendum, the Single Market on the basis of this pernicious lie is equally despicable. The very epitome of 'post-truth'.

I have no problem with people who campaigned or voted to Remain in the EU, though I disagreed with them. I'd have no problem with people campaigning for a referendum to rejoin the EU. That is the honest, decent path Remainers/Rejoiners should have the moral courage and respect for democracy to follow.

Funny int it?

When the Remain campaign said that a vote to Leave would damage our economy, put the GFA at risk and  endanger European solidarity and embolden Putin, the Brexit Death Cult insisted that was all Project Fear. But when Cameron said that Leave meant leaving the SM, he was the very Oracle itself.

[Branton Red]

Unfortunately Glyn it's my opinion that it was yourself who were subject to BS by the politicians and Establishment as soon as the result came through .

This talk emerged following the confirmation of the result and the narrative was changed , changed to leaving in name only if they could get away with it .

Exactly correct - the pejorative term 'Hard' Brexit and cuddly 'Soft' Brexit were invented after the referendum together with the lie that vote did not mandate leaving the Single Market.

[Branton Red]

Branton - your evidence that the Leave campaign(s) were adamant that a No Vote meant leaving the CU & SM is: the Remain Campaign and that noted purveyor of truth & honesty, Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson - saying something different to one tv programme that he said in another.

You must have loads more than that if it was so clear?

There is a Fact Check saying they rarely mention it and weren't clear when they did to help you:

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

Wilts I talk about the lie re Brexit not meaning leaving the Single Market you provide a link re the Customs Union but as the very first line of the article  "Key figures from both the Remain and Leave campaigns said before the referendum that voting to leave meant leaving the single market" backs up my point exactly. Thank You.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Unfortunately Glyn it's my opinion that it was yourself who were subject to BS by the politicians and Establishment as soon as the result came through .

This talk emerged following the confirmation of the result and the narrative was changed , changed to leaving in name only if they could get away with it .

Exactly correct - the pejorative term 'Hard' Brexit and cuddly 'Soft' Brexit were invented after the referendum together with the lie that vote did not mandate leaving the Single Market.

Being able to remain in the Single Market after Brexit isn't a lie though.

If you and Tyke want to imagine that voting to leave the EU also de facto meant leaving the SM, go right ahead. But don't try to force that fantasy on the rest of the country.

PS Membership of the CU isn't dependent on membership of the EU either. Just ask Turkey - and they're not members of the SM at the same time.

[Branton Red]

The claim that the 2016 referendum decision was not a mandate to leave the Single Market is the single worst, most invidious lie in recent British political history.

A lie that doesn't just threaten an overturn, by stealth, of a democratic vote but citizen's faith in politicians and democracy and faith in the purest form of democracy - the referendum.

For those with foggy memories the historical evidence from the referendum campaign is clear. Let's take, for instance, interviews on the UK's premier political interview program of the time the Andrew Marr show: -

With leader of the Remain campaign David Cameron 12/6/16: Cameron "What the British public would be voting for, if we leave, would be to leave the EU and leave the Single Market"

De facto leader of the Leave campaign Boris Johnson 5/6/16: Marr "I had Michael Gove in that chair and I asked
after Brexit will we be in the Single Market yes or no. He said no". Johnson "And he was right". Marr "So we won't be in the EU Single Market?" Johnson "Absolutely".

To ignore, forget or misremember this evidence and claim otherwise to meet a political agenda is nothing short of despicable. To campaign to rejoin, without a referendum, the Single Market on the basis of this pernicious lie is equally despicable. The very epitome of 'post-truth'.

I have no problem with people who campaigned or voted to Remain in the EU, though I disagreed with them. I'd have no problem with people campaigning for a referendum to rejoin the EU. That is the honest, decent path Remainers/Rejoiners should have the moral courage and respect for democracy to follow.

Funny int it?

When the Remain campaign said that a vote to Leave would damage our economy, put the GFA at risk and  endanger European solidarity and embolden Putin, the Brexit Death Cult insisted that was all Project Fear. But when Cameron said that Leave meant leaving the SM, he was the very Oracle itself.

Billy. So easy to get caught out in a lie isn't it? More evidence that the EU referendum campaign mandated a departure from the Single Market - the bits highlighted stemming from the risks of leaving the Single Market predominantly. Thank You too

You also seem confused on the difference between giving an opinion or asserting a fact.

Even in arguing against my crystal clear and undeniably true assertion that the Brexit vote was a mandate to leave the Single Market now 2 of the Remainers-in-chief on here provide further evidence of this self-evident truth.

[Glyn_Wigley]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2017/08/take-it-vote-leave-staffer-there-no-mandate-quit-single-market

[Branton Red]

Being able to remain in the Single Market after Brexit isn't a lie though.

If you and Tyke want to imagine that voting to leave the EU also de facto meant leaving the SM, go right ahead. But don't try to force that fantasy on the rest of the country.

PS Membership of the CU isn't dependent on membership of the EU either. Just ask Turkey - and they're not members of the SM at the same time.

Of course you can be out of the EU and in the SM and/or CU.

That's not my point. My point is what was clearly and categorically framed in the referendum campaign - a vote to leave meant leaving the SM.

How about answering the below question

    "So when, before the referendum, Farage, Johnson and lots of others campaigning for the Leave vote were saying that it didn't mean that we would leave the SM and that the Norwegian option (ie in the SM but not the EU), you knew they were lying to you."

Please provide evidence of this being said by prominent Leave campaigners during the the official campaign period for the 2016 referendum from 15 April 2016 until the day of the poll on 23 June 2016 to support your point.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Being able to remain in the Single Market after Brexit isn't a lie though.

If you and Tyke want to imagine that voting to leave the EU also de facto meant leaving the SM, go right ahead. But don't try to force that fantasy on the rest of the country.

PS Membership of the CU isn't dependent on membership of the EU either. Just ask Turkey - and they're not members of the SM at the same time.

Of course you can be out of the EU and in the SM and/or CU.

That's not my point. My point is what was clearly and categorically framed in the referendum campaign - a vote to leave meant leaving the SM.

How about answering the below question

    "So when, before the referendum, Farage, Johnson and lots of others campaigning for the Leave vote were saying that it didn't mean that we would leave the SM and that the Norwegian option (ie in the SM but not the EU), you knew they were lying to you."

Please provide evidence of this being said by prominent Leave campaigners during the the official campaign period for the 2016 referendum from 15 April 2016 until the day of the poll on 23 June 2016 to support your point.

The campaign is irrelevant regarding any mandate, that only comes from the referendum itself when people actually placed their vote. Were was the question about the SM or the CU on the ballot paper?

As for what prominent Leave campaigners were saying, there's the  entire Leave.EU manifesto. Even though it was published in January 2016, it was still extant during the official campaign and still their official position.

"Leave.EU agreed a detailed plan for leaving the EU that outlined a careful separation over two decades, membership of the single market in the medium term and, most astonishing of all, a second referendum to approve the withdrawal agreement."

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/11/08/when-he-supported-norway-the-brexit-policy-farage-would-rather-forget/

[SydneyRover]

''Brexit Would Increase Security Threats To Britain, Former Top Military Leaders Warn In Letter''

''A British exit from the European Union would limit the UK’s capacity to deal with international dangers, including the threat from members of the so-called Islamic State group and the rise of Russian nationalism under Vladimir Putin, according to top former military commanders.

In a letter to the Telegraph newspaper on Wednesday, the former top brass highlighted the “grave security” risks facing Europe, which they said the UK would be better able to deal with as part of the EU.



https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/23/brexit-increase-security-threats-britain_n_9302886.html

Russian nationalism, who'd have thought ...............

[Branton Red]

The campaign is irrelevant regarding any mandate, that only comes from the referendum itself when people actually placed their vote. Were was the question about the SM or the CU on the ballot paper?

This made me laugh out loud!!!! PMSL

So what politicians state on campaign is irrelevant and the public shouldn't expect them to fulfil any campaign pledges/promises?!

At a General Election all that is relevant and mandated is the name of the candidate, the party' name and the candidates address because that is all that appears on the ballot paper?!

Good God the arguments on my central assertion that the leave vote was a mandate to leave the SM are either contradictory or pathetically weak here chaps. I wonder why that is? It's difficult to argue against the objective truth of course.

[Glyn_Wigley]

A general election is a vote for a representative.

A referendum is a vote on a specific question. Not a nebulous supposition. The specific question was about EU membership. Nothing else, no matter what you want to fantasise.

[drfchound]

''Brexit Would Increase Security Threats To Britain, Former Top Military Leaders Warn In Letter''

''A British exit from the European Union would limit the UK’s capacity to deal with international dangers, including the threat from members of the so-called Islamic State group and the rise of Russian nationalism under Vladimir Putin, according to top former military commanders.

In a letter to the Telegraph newspaper on Wednesday, the former top brass highlighted the “grave security” risks facing Europe, which they said the UK would be better able to deal with as part of the EU.



https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/23/brexit-increase-security-threats-britain_n_9302886.html

Russian nationalism, who'd have thought ...............

SR, did you vote to remain or leave,   Oh wait a minute…….

[tyke1962]

Even one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.

Heroes ??

That's interesting given I didn't emigrate to the other side of the world to settle in a country that's had a right wing government for 20 of the last 26 years and with it some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world .

Makes you wonder who your heroes are Syd .

Maybe you're not a racist but you appear to be a xenophobe tyke and therefore not acceptable here so that bit's academic.

Unfortunately Syd those are the kind of playing the last card retorts that make you look like a complete idiot when it comes to political debate , instead of playing an ace you played the Joker .

The politics of the so called Progressive Left which is the tribe you tend to stick your hat on are the people of " the right thing to do " or " it's the decent thing to do " when it comes to the subject of immigration .

Except the " Right Thing To Do " isn't necessarily right politically .

Immigration also comes with problems .

The EU policy of open borders I find extremely dehumanising , a pool of 450m workers available to the top hats across Europe the majority of the cheap Labour variety lends itself to the citizens of anywhere ready to move around Europe filling in market shortages so the man with the Top hat on continues to keep the majority of the wealth created for himself without so much as leaving his top floor office .

Why should you expect your morning coffee on the High Street to be prepared for you by a migrant , is that your reality ? .

This trend then places downward pressure on wages , when there is an abundance of anything the price goes down , basic economics .

Not only that it then creates a lack of enthusiasm in governments , you could even call it laziness to not skill up and train it's workforce .

I've mentioned in the past the pressure it creates on our NHS , schools and housing I've no need to underline that .

So " The Decent Thing To Do  "  doesn't necessarily reconcile with reality and can make things worse .

I'll actually take the xenophobic comment on the chin because it says much more about you than it does me .

Maybe then you shouldn't throw insults around if you're so thinned skinned tyke and while you're at it tell me what isn't xenophobic about discounting someone's views be cause of where they happen to live, you ape others on this site have been doing it for some time. It's uncanny how they have similar opinions.

This is regardless that your argument is baseless and fact free. That everything you apparently stand for gets washed away because of your vote or non-vote doesn't seem to register with you at all. With an tanking economy, how is that going to help those on the bottom rung?

Why don't you explain how your vote has changed Britain for the better and why you didn't see any of this slow train wreck happening, it was predicted. Please try and keep it simple old chap.

Did you not digest anything at all in my last post that linked your comments about the other side of immigration .

Why don't you instead make the case against my comments ?

Now then is the current state of the economy the first time we've seen it slide ?

No it isn't , the worst recessions I've experienced were whilst members of the EU .

But you continue with your one man crusade around the internet looking to pin everything on leaving the EU .

The Wizz one was a classic by the way .

[SydneyRover]

you're wizzing in the wind Tyke

[BillyStubbsTears]

Being able to remain in the Single Market after Brexit isn't a lie though.

If you and Tyke want to imagine that voting to leave the EU also de facto meant leaving the SM, go right ahead. But don't try to force that fantasy on the rest of the country.

PS Membership of the CU isn't dependent on membership of the EU either. Just ask Turkey - and they're not members of the SM at the same time.

Of course you can be out of the EU and in the SM and/or CU.

That's not my point. My point is what was clearly and categorically framed in the referendum campaign - a vote to leave meant leaving the SM.

How about answering the below question

    "So when, before the referendum, Farage, Johnson and lots of others campaigning for the Leave vote were saying that it didn't mean that we would leave the SM and that the Norwegian option (ie in the SM but not the EU), you knew they were lying to you."

Please provide evidence of this being said by prominent Leave campaigners during the the official campaign period for the 2016 referendum from 15 April 2016 until the day of the poll on 23 June 2016 to support your point.

You are being deliberately obtuse if you think Farage saying "Wouldn't it be awful if we were like Norway and Switzerland? Really?!?" over and over and over again in the months and years before the campaign had no effect. The "campaign" didn't start when The Campaign started. It was going on for years.

Similarly when a prominent ex-Minister said "You'd have to be insane to think we'd leave The Market" on TV, you'd have to be very obtuse to think some people didn't think he was referring to our membership of the SM. Or when Gove said "There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone" it takes a particular form of bias to think that some people didn't read that as an indication that we could have a relationship with the EU like Iceland's.

Your thesis is predicated on every voter processing every (deliberate or accidental) comment that muddied the waters and seeing a clear conclusion.

And bear in mind that the key policy of Cummings as the director of the Vote Leave campaign was (successfully) to target precisely the people who had little interest in political detail and urge them to vote on gut instinct.

The whole point of Ref2 would have been to check if the Brexit that the Tory Right finally landed on was indeed what the electorate wanted. There is absolutely zero evidence that it was.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyway. You lot who've been so happy the we Got Brexit Done. Watch the news on Monday evening.

[SydneyRover]

Tt makes sense rather than getting employees from across the channel?

https://uk.jooble.org/jobs-fruit-and-veg-picker

''UK farmers turn to Nepal and Tajikistan for fruit pickers''

Bal Kumar Khatri has worked harvesting rice and beans in his native Nepal before, and been a trekking guide in the Himalayas.

But this year, instead, the 26-year-old is in a polytunnel in north Nottinghamshire picking strawberries.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61603429

''Fruitful Jobs is recruiting in 37 countries from South Africa to Kurdistan, Canada to Mongolia. But recruits have to find £244 for a visa plus their return air fare. That, plus the bureaucracy and language barriers, means it's not a quick process to recruit from new, far-flung places''

[BillyStubbsTears]

David Davis eh? He's always talked utter b*llocks but he used to do it persuasively. Sad to see him descend to Old Man Shouting At Clouds mode.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4/status/1536055162560724992