Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: River Don on January 24, 2021, 06:17:27 pm
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Wow.
https://ev.biomega.com/
Marmite, I suspect though.
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Jesus wept, that's hideous.
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I suppose the good thing is that the young women won’t be able to type into their phones whilst driving without being seen doing it.
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Take a deep breath, look again.
Completely open cabin with plenty of space, even the wheels have been pushed outside the shell to maximise interior space, lightweight so extended range, batteries designed to take out and swap so even more extended range.
As for the look of it. It's completely different to an ICE car for good reason.
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€20,000! Someone's having a giraffe!
Where do I put my fishing tackle or my golf clubs?
Net even much room for shopping.
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€20,000! Someone's having a giraffe!
Where do I put my fishing tackle or my golf clubs?
Net even much room for shopping.
€30,000 for the Nissan Leaf. Probably a smaller vehicle.
I expect those lightweight mesh rear seats will pop out very easily if you want to move a lot of stuff.
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Almost all modern cars are disgusting to look at. Why do car designers think they are working on the set of Star Trek?
You can still make something modern but with a traditional style.
I've got one of these and I love it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=SUZUKI+JIMNY+GEN4&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX4Y252LbuAhXBQkEAHUd9B00Q_AUoAXoECBMQAw&biw=960&bih=484#imgrc=EZKN5S5D-3dIQM
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I find most affordable cars today pretty boring to look at, they pop out of the same jelly mold.
If you're able to pay a premium then I think modern Audis, Jags, Range Rovers, BMWs, Mercs and so on are pretty good to look at. And there are a lot on the road today, back in the 80s a BMW was much more of a rarity.
The problem with cars today though is they are big, heavy, gas guzzling things.
That car takes the design principles of Colin Chapman. Light, light, light. And Alec Issigonis of maximising limited space. And they've wrapped it up in a minimal Matt black and glass skin. From a design point of view, it's Bob on.
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With a front like that it's about as aerodynamic as a building brick.
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I suppose the good thing is that the young women won’t be able to type into their phones whilst driving without being seen doing it.
and if they have a short skirt on you will be able to see up it with that clear footwell :chair:
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I suppose the good thing is that the young women won’t be able to type into their phones whilst driving without being seen doing it.
and if they have a short skirt on you will be able to see up it with that clear footwell :chair:
In that case I'm sticking to trousers.
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Almost all modern cars are disgusting to look at. Why do car designers think they are working on the set of Star Trek?
You can still make something modern but with a traditional style.
I've got one of these and I love it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=SUZUKI+JIMNY+GEN4&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX4Y252LbuAhXBQkEAHUd9B00Q_AUoAXoECBMQAw&biw=960&bih=484#imgrc=EZKN5S5D-3dIQM
i'm looking for a new car in the next few months and did think about this but with 2 small kids and only the odd bit of snow and ice did not think it would be worth the investment. i'd like to get something cool and quirky as part of my mid life crisis years that the kids (7 and 5) will like.
What made you get one and did you have to think about any of my considerations
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I suppose the good thing is that the young women won’t be able to type into their phones whilst driving without being seen doing it.
and if they have a short skirt on you will be able to see up it with that clear footwell :chair:
So lots of potential for causing accidents as well.
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Will it tow my small caravan. No, it won’t even tow a cabbage.
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Towing things isn't a strong point for any electric car.
Getting caravans off the road would be considered a bonus by many though.
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I'm likely getting a plug in hybrid soon, anyone else have one? Considered a full electric car but they just aren't big enough as a family car.
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I'm likely getting a plug in hybrid soon, anyone else have one? Considered a full electric car but they just aren't big enough as a family car.
If you're getting a hybrid I would go for a self charging one at the moment, otherwise you may end up with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax vcr.
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I'm likely getting a plug in hybrid soon, anyone else have one? Considered a full electric car but they just aren't big enough as a family car.
If you're getting a hybrid I would go for a self charging one at the moment, otherwise you may end up with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax vcr.
Company car, so not too long term and the residual value doesn't bother me. I'm just looking to see if anyone else found them usable etc?
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I'm likely getting a plug in hybrid soon, anyone else have one? Considered a full electric car but they just aren't big enough as a family car.
If you're getting a hybrid I would go for a self charging one at the moment, otherwise you may end up with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax vcr.
Company car, so not too long term and the residual value doesn't bother me. I'm just looking to see if anyone else found them usable etc?
On my 2nd through work now mate, perfectly usable. Only use fuel on long trips, day to day travelling is all on electric. Charging from 3 pin socket
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I'm likely getting a plug in hybrid soon, anyone else have one? Considered a full electric car but they just aren't big enough as a family car.
If you're getting a hybrid I would go for a self charging one at the moment, otherwise you may end up with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax vcr.
Company car, so not too long term and the residual value doesn't bother me. I'm just looking to see if anyone else found them usable etc?
On my 2nd through work now mate, perfectly usable. Only use fuel on long trips, day to day travelling is all on electric. Charging from 3 pin socket
Are you regularly charging up from the household socket?
I understood you had to have your home electrics checked out before doing this?
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I'm likely getting a plug in hybrid soon, anyone else have one? Considered a full electric car but they just aren't big enough as a family car.
If you're getting a hybrid I would go for a self charging one at the moment, otherwise you may end up with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax vcr.
Company car, so not too long term and the residual value doesn't bother me. I'm just looking to see if anyone else found them usable etc?
On my 2nd through work now mate, perfectly usable. Only use fuel on long trips, day to day travelling is all on electric. Charging from 3 pin socket
Are you regularly charging up from the household socket?
I understood you had to have your home electrics checked out before doing this?
Been doing for 3 years now from the socket in the garage
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Ldr,
Your leccy utility will provide a subsidised charger if you want.
Some do it free...just ask them.
The charge up will be quicker on a dedicated charger.
AL,
No reason to have domestic electrics checked.
That's the first I have heard of that...loads of people do this, but the downside is slow charge up.
BFYP,
Be aware of the tax position of the option you choose;
https://www.whatcar.com/news/hybrid-car-company-car-tax/n22616
This might change, as moves are afoot to move hybrids out of the way, now fully electric are reaching price parity with extended range. 2023 is the point that electric expects to be cheaper than ICE.
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I'm likely getting a plug in hybrid soon, anyone else have one? Considered a full electric car but they just aren't big enough as a family car.
If you're getting a hybrid I would go for a self charging one at the moment, otherwise you may end up with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax vcr.
Company car, so not too long term and the residual value doesn't bother me. I'm just looking to see if anyone else found them usable etc?
On my 2nd through work now mate, perfectly usable. Only use fuel on long trips, day to day travelling is all on electric. Charging from 3 pin socket
Are you regularly charging up from the household socket?
I understood you had to have your home electrics checked out before doing this?
Been doing for 3 years now from the socket in the garage
Lucky for you that you don't get the Isle of Axholme weekly power cut! :(
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Ldr,
Your leccy utility will provide a subsidised charger if you want.
Some do it free...just ask them.
The charge up will be quicker on a dedicated charger.
AL,
No reason to have domestic electrics checked.
That's the first I have heard of that...loads of people do this, but the downside is slow charge up.
BFYP,
Be aware of the tax position of the option you choose;
https://www.whatcar.com/news/hybrid-car-company-car-tax/n22616
This might change, as moves are afoot to move hybrids out of the way, now fully electric are reaching price parity with extended range. 2023 is the point that electric expects to be cheaper than ICE.
Tax is a specialism in our house thankfully. The filly electric option isn't suitable either so little choice though I did consider it. I probably will go that way for the next one though as it's what I'd prefer.
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Is that car a fully working model or is it just a consent car
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Towing things isn't a strong point for any electric car.
Getting caravans off the road would be considered a bonus by many though.
Caravans are not everyone’s cup of tea, I get that. Mine is tiny (Eriba) seen by many as the Vw camper of caravans. Happily tow it at normal road speeds so don’t hold up traffic. With covid, sales of caravans have gone through the roof. Staycations will be a lot more like the new normal and camping contributes huge sums to the national economy.
Electric cars will dessimate this industry.
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I'm likely getting a plug in hybrid soon, anyone else have one? Considered a full electric car but they just aren't big enough as a family car.
If you're getting a hybrid I would go for a self charging one at the moment, otherwise you may end up with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax vcr.
Company car, so not too long term and the residual value doesn't bother me. I'm just looking to see if anyone else found them usable etc?
My Merc c350e has just gone back a couple of months ago. I loved it. Really rubbish range on pure electric but enough to pootle about all weekend without using any petrol.
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Towing things isn't a strong point for any electric car.
Getting caravans off the road would be considered a bonus by many though.
Caravans are not everyone’s cup of tea, I get that. Mine is tiny (Eriba) seen by many as the Vw camper of caravans. Happily tow it at normal road speeds so don’t hold up traffic. With covid, sales of caravans have gone through the roof. Staycations will be a lot more like the new normal and camping contributes huge sums to the national economy.
Electric cars will dessimate this industry.
Surely "they" will develop ever - smaller - more powerful - beefy batteries which will be able to cope with a Caravan though ?
I mean if Amazon are trumpetting a fleet of all electric vans surely the next logical step will be electric Lorries which will need power and lots of it. Planes are also touted as being all electric so once the batteries get better and better towing a Cara or having an electric Motorhome will be commonplace wont it ?
I am still envisaging although it may be well into the future something I saw in Vietnam (on telly of course) where there are multi thousand electric motor bikes / scooters. They pay a standard rate for "power" for them but instead of charging they call at a Battery exchange place. Pull up - exchange battery - and drive off. Of course the batteries are small and clean and easily handled but last for 100 miles or so
Once the outgoing one is back in the bank" it is charged ready for the next customer coming along although they had maybe 300 in the "bank". I then thought wow how good to have such a system for cars with a series of suck banks all over the country. It needs the techno to catch up but weve come this far - surely we will develop even more till we have tiny batteries in comparison to what they are now but more powerful
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Towing things isn't a strong point for any electric car.
Getting caravans off the road would be considered a bonus by many though.
Caravans are not everyone’s cup of tea, I get that. Mine is tiny (Eriba) seen by many as the Vw camper of caravans. Happily tow it at normal road speeds so don’t hold up traffic. With covid, sales of caravans have gone through the roof. Staycations will be a lot more like the new normal and camping contributes huge sums to the national economy.
Electric cars will dessimate this industry.
Surely "they" will develop ever - smaller - more powerful - beefy batteries which will be able to cope with a Caravan though ?
I mean if Amazon are trumpetting a fleet of all electric vans surely the next logical step will be electric Lorries which will need power and lots of it. Planes are also touted as being all electric so once the batteries get better and better towing a Cara or having an electric Motorhome will be commonplace wont it ?
I am still envisaging although it may be well into the future something I saw in Vietnam (on telly of course) where there are multi thousand electric motor bikes / scooters. They pay a standard rate for "power" for them but instead of charging they call at a Battery exchange place. Pull up - exchange battery - and drive off. Of course the batteries are small and clean and easily handled but last for 100 miles or so
Once the outgoing one is back in the bank" it is charged ready for the next customer coming along although they had maybe 300 in the "bank". I then thought wow how good to have such a system for cars with a series of suck banks all over the country. It needs the techno to catch up but weve come this far - surely we will develop even more till we have tiny batteries in comparison to what they are now but more powerful
Already here, mate.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/29/uk-electric-van-maker-arrival-secures-340m-order-from-ups
UPS converted one of their depots in London to all electric a couple of years ago because it was more cost effective when considering congestion charge.
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Yes - thats good
My point is though that with all the advances there will soon be something powerful enough to pull a Caravan surely (if it doesnt exist already).
Vans begat lorries begat Ocean liners etc - and somewhere along the way Normal Rules will get his Caravan tug rather than thinking "electric cars will decimate" the Caravan industry
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Electric vehicles have incredible torque. Get the battery, range, drain, recharge equation more refined and I see no reason not to have towing capability.
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The Caravan Club are constantly speaking with the government and motor industry about the future of cars that will be suitable for towing.
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Towing things isn't a strong point for any electric car.
Getting caravans off the road would be considered a bonus by many though.
Caravans are not everyone’s cup of tea, I get that. Mine is tiny (Eriba) seen by many as the Vw camper of caravans. Happily tow it at normal road speeds so don’t hold up traffic. With covid, sales of caravans have gone through the roof. Staycations will be a lot more like the new normal and camping contributes huge sums to the national economy.
Electric cars will dessimate this industry.
Surely "they" will develop ever - smaller - more powerful - beefy batteries which will be able to cope with a Caravan though ?
I mean if Amazon are trumpetting a fleet of all electric vans surely the next logical step will be electric Lorries which will need power and lots of it. Planes are also touted as being all electric so once the batteries get better and better towing a Cara or having an electric Motorhome will be commonplace wont it ?
I am still envisaging although it may be well into the future something I saw in Vietnam (on telly of course) where there are multi thousand electric motor bikes / scooters. They pay a standard rate for "power" for them but instead of charging they call at a Battery exchange place. Pull up - exchange battery - and drive off. Of course the batteries are small and clean and easily handled but last for 100 miles or so
Once the outgoing one is back in the bank" it is charged ready for the next customer coming along although they had maybe 300 in the "bank". I then thought wow how good to have such a system for cars with a series of suck banks all over the country. It needs the techno to catch up but weve come this far - surely we will develop even more till we have tiny batteries in comparison to what they are now but more powerful
Battery swap is the only way electric cars will be feasible for most people. Breaking up a journey with an hour for a recharge is not practical.
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Electric cars that are capable of towing will come, maybe even caravans will be fitted with a small electric motor that can assist.
Battery technology is coming on leaps and bounds. bp, damiler (MB) and some others are working and investing in tech that can recharge a battery within 5 mins.
The new Skoda enyaq and VW id4 both SUV are being released this year as is the merc eqa the merc has an option to tow 750kg how that will effect range is currently unknown but even if it makes out at 150 miles at motorway speeds that's almost 3 hours of driving the recommended break time by the highway code
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Battery swap works well in China have a look at a company called nio they have stations that change a battery within 6mins most of their cars do 300 miles nedc so 250 real world as nedc is very unrealistic
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If you can get batteries with 300+ mile range and a faster charge time like Tesla are claiming then the future will embrace these quickly. They just need to make them affordable and many will move.
I full expect my next one to be full electric.
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Battery swap works well in China have a look at a company called nio they have stations that change a battery within 6mins most of their cars do 300 miles nedc so 250 real world as nedc is very unrealistic
The vehicle I posted the link to at the start of this thread has swappable batteries. It's not a bad solution to the problem of charging but it will require a lot of stations all over the country to make it practical.
I'd hope they have a standard format battery for these kinds of vehicles too. It'd be a nightmare if every manufacture has their own system.
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
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Battery swap works well in China have a look at a company called nio they have stations that change a battery within 6mins most of their cars do 300 miles nedc so 250 real world as nedc is very unrealistic
The vehicle I posted the link to at the start of this thread has swappable batteries. It's not a bad solution to the problem of charging but it will require a lot of stations all over the country to make it practice.
I'd hope they have a standard format battery for these kinds of vehicles too. It'd be a nightmare if every manufacture has their own system.
RD nio is a very cool solution the swap station can be built anywhere as the only connection is to plug into the grid and if it isn't being used then it can be moved.
Nio has different pack sizes so if you want a longer range you can upgrade to a bigger one and then lower back say when you finish on holiday say
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Nio.com
A fairly standard looking car, it even has a radiator, which electric cars don't need.
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Nio.com
A fairly standard looking car, it even has a radiator, which electric cars don't need.
Actually they do need a cooling system. I've just been looking at one this morning. It was a full electric plug in car. It needs the cooling for the batteries etc.
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Towing things isn't a strong point for any electric car.
Getting caravans off the road would be considered a bonus by many though.
Caravans are not everyone’s cup of tea, I get that. Mine is tiny (Eriba) seen by many as the Vw camper of caravans. Happily tow it at normal road speeds so don’t hold up traffic. With covid, sales of caravans have gone through the roof. Staycations will be a lot more like the new normal and camping contributes huge sums to the national economy.
Electric cars will dessimate this industry.
2 of us then NR, we have a Troll530 perfect for the 2 of us. Are you on the Eribafolk forum?
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I’ve no doubt tech will bring more powerful batteries in time with range and torque to tow. At present though, it’s a Tesla 3.price wise, that’s a no from me.
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Towing things isn't a strong point for any electric car.
Getting caravans off the road would be considered a bonus by many though.
Caravans are not everyone’s cup of tea, I get that. Mine is tiny (Eriba) seen by many as the Vw camper of caravans. Happily tow it at normal road speeds so don’t hold up traffic. With covid, sales of caravans have gone through the roof. Staycations will be a lot more like the new normal and camping contributes huge sums to the national economy.
Electric cars will dessimate this industry.
2 of us then NR, we have a Troll530 perfect for the 2 of us. Are you on the Eribafolk forum?
Yep. Been on eribafolk a while. Triton 430GT. An absolute gem.
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
Cybertruck is due May 2022 by all accounts. Available to order through some leasing companies!
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
Cybertruck is due May 2022 by all accounts. Available to order through some leasing companies!
Got deposit on mine
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Review of upcoming electric cars, for those interested:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars-vans/354175/future-electric-cars-new-evs-due-2021-and-beyond
Rapidly moving forward now!
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This site may be of use to some who want to compare ranges/prices/charging options etc...... just change the tabs at top of the page.
https://ev-database.uk/car/1408/Tesla-Model-X-Plaid
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Fyi VW id4 can tow 1000kg 1st edition models are priced at £37,000 after the grant
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Fyi VW id4 can tow 1000kg 1st edition models are priced at £37,000 after the grant
A bargain then. I'll bet they'll be flying off the shelves.
You can buy a Subaru Forester Hybrid for that price. A car which will do 300k miles and last twenty years.
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Fyi VW id4 can tow 1000kg 1st edition models are priced at £37,000 after the grant
A bargain then. I'll bet they'll be flying off the shelves.
You can buy a Subaru Forester Hybrid for that price. A car which will do 300k miles and last twenty years.
For a company car driver they are incredible value. A lot of people take cars through companies.
Wouldn't buy one at full price but I'd say that for any new car.
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
Cybertruck is due May 2022 by all accounts. Available to order through some leasing companies!
Got deposit on mine
Happy days. They appear to be marmite but I think they look cool as f**k. Remind of the cruisers out of Aliens. Look forward to seeing them on the road.
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
Cybertruck is due May 2022 by all accounts. Available to order through some leasing companies!
Got deposit on mine
Happy days. They appear to be marmite but I think they look cool as f**k. Remind of the cruisers out of Aliens. Look forward to seeing them on the road.
Fingers crossed people will get to see it in the keepmoat car park at home matches
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
Cybertruck is due May 2022 by all accounts. Available to order through some leasing companies!
Is that how everyone still does the company car thing now? I've got my first car allowance starting soon when I join my new company and have been weighing up leasing against pcp
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
Cybertruck is due May 2022 by all accounts. Available to order through some leasing companies!
Is that how everyone still does the company car thing now? I've got my first car allowance starting soon when I join my new company and have been weighing up leasing against pcp
Why not just buy a good quality car and keep it for a long time?
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
Cybertruck is due May 2022 by all accounts. Available to order through some leasing companies!
Is that how everyone still does the company car thing now? I've got my first car allowance starting soon when I join my new company and have been weighing up leasing against pcp
I believe so! Comes down to the user & financial stability really. Could just buy older outright like AL says. Whether you want a brand spanking new reg for a competitive price really.
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I'm waiting for either the Tesla cybertruck or VW space vizzion whichever comes 1st to replace my 10 year old be Passat diesel
Cybertruck is due May 2022 by all accounts. Available to order through some leasing companies!
Is that how everyone still does the company car thing now? I've got my first car allowance starting soon when I join my new company and have been weighing up leasing against pcp
Why not just buy a good quality car and keep it for a long time?
Potentially on the right vehicle you can have a car for next to no cost. In a previous job I had an Audi that cost me based on the BIK and tax rate at that point £60 a month in tax with no other cost. That included tax, all maintenance and insurance. I wouldn't have even got insurance for that at the age I was (Mid 20s). It's much less risk free in some ways, particularly if you're not that fussed about the car you want. They can be very beneficial. EG currently and electric vehicle costs £0 on BIK so it's effectively free unless an allowance is sacrificed. No brainer really.
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''Fossil fuel cars make 'hundreds of times' more waste than electric cars. Analysis by transport group says battery electric vehicles are superior to their petrol and diesel counterparts''
''Fossil fuel cars waste hundreds of times more raw material than their battery electric equivalents, according to a study that adds to evidence that the move away from petrol and diesel cars will bring large net environmental benefits.
Only about 30kg of raw material will be lost over the lifecycle of a lithium ion battery used in electric cars once recycling is taken into account, compared with 17,000 litres of oil, according to analysis by Transport & Environment (T&E) seen by the Guardian''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/01/fossil-fuel-cars-make-hundreds-of-times-more-waste-than-electric-cars
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Canoo electric pick up. Coming soon.
https://www.canoo.com/pickup/
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That is a horrible looking vehicle RD.
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That is a horrible looking vehicle RD.
It seems to be a look some are going for with all electric, with there not being an engine in the front, they can push the cabin forward and open up more space inside.
For an SUV this is exceptionally pretty.
https://www.alfaromeo.co.uk/models/tonale-concept
However, I don't think SUVs or hybrids are really the way forward.
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Meanwhile, in related news, after 30 years, the RAC...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56647128
...catches up with Viz.
http://viz.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Satsuma1.jpg
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@Big Fat Yorkshire Pudding.
Did you go for a hybrid in the end?
I changed jobs in December so the c350e had to go back. I looked at personal leasing a CLA250e (I don't get a company car with the new job) but decided in a purchase of another C Class, but this time a diesel as (when something resembling normality resumes) I'll be putting some miles in.
Bought a 2.5yo C 220d AMG Line for less a month than the CLA250e lease would have been and instead of handing the keys back on the CLA in 4 years time, I'll have a paid off car worth around £10k as a trade in.
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The real future in the EV sector is going to be vehicle to grid technology;
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-04-27/more-evs-are-being-designed-to-push-power-to-the-electrical-grid
Once VW go down that route, all the others will follow suit.
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''The Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC) last week announced that Australians could soon be charged for exporting solar to the grid to help cope with electricity "traffic jams"''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-03-30/solar-power-electricity-should-owners-pay-to-supply-grid/100035198
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Buying an EV now is like buying a betamax VCR. In a few years people will regret shelling out over £40K for a little hatchback that they won't be able to sell.
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Buying an EV now is like buying a betamax VCR. In a few years people will regret shelling out over £40K for a little hatchback that they won't be able to sell.
I have to admit that I am holding out for the 'next generation' of EV's before throwing my hard earned at one.
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Buying an EV now is like buying a betamax VCR. In a few years people will regret shelling out over £40K for a little hatchback that they won't be able to sell.
Brilliant Axholme......your are nearly a genuine wit, halfway there already!
Exactly the opposite is true.
In 5 years time you will struggle to sell your old fartmobile, and have to pay someone to take it away.
For those interested in the future, the IEA have produced their interpretation of the market development;
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2021
For discussion, not an endorsement of all within.
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Buying an EV now is like buying a betamax VCR. In a few years people will regret shelling out over £40K for a little hatchback that they won't be able to sell.
Brilliant Axholme......your are nearly a genuine wit, halfway there already!
Exactly the opposite is true.
In 5 years time you will struggle to sell your old fartmobile, and have to pay someone to take it away.
For those interested in the future, the IEA have produced their interpretation of the market development;
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2021
For discussion, not an endorsement of all within.
Not really. I bought a new Jimny last year just before they got dropped in europe due to emissions, it's already worth about eight grand more than i paid for it a year older and with 8k on the clock. I will never sell it in any case. In a couple of years i'll buy the LCV vesion they've brought out , commercial vehicles don't have as strict regs on emissions. Well maintained they should both last me for years.
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More and more towns and cities are introducing zero emission zones so will less places to visit.
Also fuel prices will start to increase, electric will stay low and even lower if you have solar panels.
Expect all car companies to make all BEV models or they won't be able to sell cars in Europe.
China are really pushing on with Tesla outselling the even the local brands.
We need smaller and cheaper with a real world range of 200 miles at worst
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More and more towns and cities are introducing zero emission zones so will less places to visit.
Also fuel prices will start to increase, electric will stay low and even lower if you have solar panels.
Expect all car companies to make all BEV models or they won't be able to sell cars in Europe.
China are really pushing on with Tesla outselling the even the local brands.
We need smaller and cheaper with a real world range of 200 miles at worst
It needs to be 350 mile range to be taken seriously, otherwise a decent day out becomes a weekend job.
As regard zero emission zones just rub cow shit on your number plate then they won't know who you are.
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Chinese nailing it with the girlies at £3k a pop;
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-04/china-s-top-ev-maker-stakes-its-future-on-a-4-500-mini-car?srnd=hyperdrive
Still think they are going to be too expensive?
Think again.
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Chinese nailing it with the girlies at £3k a pop;
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-04/china-s-top-ev-maker-stakes-its-future-on-a-4-500-mini-car?srnd=hyperdrive
Still think they are going to be too expensive?
Think again.
Cheap enough albie and it will have its target market.
I can’t see me getting one though, definitely not good enough to pull the caravan, get a couple of sets of golf clubs and trolleys into etc.
It might even be a bit tight for young mothers to gets a couple of kids in with pushchairs and all the kit they need to carry around with them.
However, as you say, cheap enough.
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Not big enough for my meeds, but encouraging that cheaper models are coming.
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To be fair, Hound, I reckon caravan owners are a niche that will eventually get a solution, but they are not at the head of the waiting list.
Point is that inexpensive options are coming to market, and that will transform access and perceptions. This one is aimed at young women, and is working for that sector.
If the Chinese start exporting similar low cost vehicles to Europe (albeit with a premium), the big players will need to respond or take a caning.
With the towing issue, an EV should have much greater torque than an ICE vehicle, so with the plummet in battery costs your next choice will be a much cheaper EV that will do what you need.
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Just dont look at the crash results of that car they say any accident over 15mph will cause major injury.
The idea is great and perfect for car sharing in inner city’s like London with slow speed traffic but needs to be built correctly if mass adoption is needed.
I’m looking into the Skoda enyaq iv or vw id4 once released
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Agreed...I did not look at the safety data.
If they wish to export, then they will have to meet the standards set in the export destination.
After that, the issue is the price point at which they can achieve market penetration.
Media focus has been on the Tesla end of the market, the premium product.
That will not be the story going forwards, as the volume sales will be at the other end of the range.
Don't forget that most are not driving from Inverness to Plymouth on a regular basis....they are doing a few miles here and there around the local patch. They have different needs to Hound.
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Agreed...I did not look at the safety data.
If they wish to export, then they will have to meet the standards set in the export destination.
After that, the issue is the price point at which they can achieve market penetration.
Media focus has been on the Tesla end of the market, the premium product.
That will not be the story going forwards, as the volume sales will be at the other end of the range.
Don't forget that most are not driving from Inverness to Plymouth on a regular basis....they are doing a few miles here and there around the local patch. They have different needs to Hound.
Agreed albie and to qualify my earlier post, I accept that there will be a market for the Chinese car.
I have actually been looking to swap my current car but think I am still going to go with a diesel model for the time being.
The battery range on a suitable car for me is nowhere near what I would be looking for but in another five years time I feel sure that things will have significantly advanced and what I want will be out there.
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This fella has a towing guide for EV's;
https://electrictowcars.co.uk/electric-tow-cars/
Gets updated regularly as the position changes quite quickly with new products etc.
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@Big Fat Yorkshire Pudding.
Did you go for a hybrid in the end?
I changed jobs in December so the c350e had to go back. I looked at personal leasing a CLA250e (I don't get a company car with the new job) but decided in a purchase of another C Class, but this time a diesel as (when something resembling normality resumes) I'll be putting some miles in.
Bought a 2.5yo C 220d AMG Line for less a month than the CLA250e lease would have been and instead of handing the keys back on the CLA in 4 years time, I'll have a paid off car worth around £10k as a trade in.
Sorry didn't see this. I still intend to but having issues getting one at the moment for a few reasons. Intention is to get the Passat GTE in some form, though I also fancy the id4 which might be available at this rate by the time I get it.
Got a petrol tuscon in the meantime. It's not good and will probably be changing in next few weeks as costing a fortune too. Fuel cars and company cars just don't work anymore.
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Just ordered a second Jimny. Lead time is around a year! I wont be selling either.
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My daughter is a sustainability officer for one of the large charities that are on the High Street, they recently trialed all electric cars for their area managers and found them completely unsuitable for any decent journey finding problems with the claimed ranges of the vehicles and of vandalised charging points or the wrong connections.
The problem with their van Collection vehicles is the range and load size for their larger items such as furniture.
Hybrids case could be the answer for the car fleet if people use them as intended, a past survey of reps hybrids returned at the end of the hire period found that the connection plugs had been unused and still had the original cover on as hired out from new and had been driven on the petrol engine only.
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Just ordered a second Jimny. Lead time is around a year! I wont be selling either.
What's so good about a Jimny then Axholme...?
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Just ordered a second Jimny. Lead time is around a year! I wont be selling either.
What's so good about a Jimny then Axholme...?
It's slow, bouncy, noisy, the boot space is non existent, but it has tons of character is very sturdy and is virtually unstoppable off road. It's a real love it or hate it car with a following. Twelve month old models with over 10k on the clock are currently going for over eight grand more than when they were new due to the supply issues. Most people would hate it compared to most modern vehicles as it feels like from a different era.
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Ended up with a plug in Kia niro hybrid last week. Got to say I'm really surprised how much I like it.
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The whole range is quite impressive, apart from the Starmer.
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As an aside to this, I see that the EU have imposed fines on VW and BMW for colluding on the technical development of emissions-cleaning technology for diesel cars.
https://www.independent.ie/business/world/volkswagen-and-bmw-to-pay-875m-in-fines-for-collusion-40631309.html
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As an aside to this, I see that the EU have imposed fines on VW and BMW for colluding on the technical development of emissions-cleaning technology for diesel cars.
https://www.independent.ie/business/world/volkswagen-and-bmw-to-pay-875m-in-fines-for-collusion-40631309.html
VW gassed monkeys when testing vehicles.
https://www.peta.org/action/action-alerts/monkeys-abused-volkswagen-inhalation-test/
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As an aside to this, I see that the EU have imposed fines on VW and BMW for colluding on the technical development of emissions-cleaning technology for diesel cars.
https://www.independent.ie/business/world/volkswagen-and-bmw-to-pay-875m-in-fines-for-collusion-40631309.html
VW gassed monkeys when testing vehicles.
https://www.peta.org/action/action-alerts/monkeys-abused-volkswagen-inhalation-test/
Not like the Germans that.......................... oh wait :ohmy:
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This is a good idea
''UK government backs scheme for motorway cables to power lorries
E-highway study given £2m to draw up plans for overhead electric cables on motorway near Scunthorpe''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/27/uk-government-backs-scheme-for-motorway-cables-to-power-lorries
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This is a good idea
''UK government backs scheme for motorway cables to power lorries
E-highway study given £2m to draw up plans for overhead electric cables on motorway near Scunthorpe''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/27/uk-government-backs-scheme-for-motorway-cables-to-power-lorries
An even bigger eyesore than the wind turbines which seldom seem to turn. IMO it's all a waste of time and money. In fifty years time everyone will be brown bread in any case.
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You might be but I won't!
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You might be but I won't!
Do you think the human race will still be here in fifty years time?
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Yeah, I saw Waterworld on the telly.
It might be a bit different to what we know now but maybe Covid will have gone so it should be ok.
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Might as well put this in this thread too.
I hadn't realised Volvo have launched a new electric car brand.
https://www.polestar.com/uk/
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You might be but I won't!
Do you think the human race will still be here in fifty years time?
Of course we will.
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I wont
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I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
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Ask your leccy company, Mush.
Terms vary, but they want you to have a charger at home as it means they sell the juice, not another supplier at Tesco or wherever.
Of course, solar panels on a south facing roof means the best of both worlds!
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Some info here;
https://www.zap-map.com/charge-points/charging-home/
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''Millions of electric car batteries will retire in the next decade. What happens to them?''
''By one estimate, more than 12m tons of lithium-ion batteries are expected to retire between now and 2030.
Not only do these batteries require large amounts of raw materials, including lithium, nickel and cobalt – mining for which has climate, environmental and human rights impacts – they also threaten to leave a mountain of electronic waste as they reach the end of their lives.
As the automotive industry starts to transform, experts say now is the time to plan for what happens to batteries at the end of their lives, to reduce reliance on mining and keep materials in circulation''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/20/electric-car-batteries-what-happens-to-them
We should not impede progress away from fossil fuel use although the political will needs to be there.
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I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
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I've got a podpoint charger 7kw version. Installation was excellent and very tidy. My employer paid for mine, however that's with a grant which podpoint sort out with you anyway. Well worth doing.
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It make me feel I'm living in Bedrock reading all about the incentives to get with the future.
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''Millions of electric car batteries will retire in the next decade. What happens to them?''
''By one estimate, more than 12m tons of lithium-ion batteries are expected to retire between now and 2030.
Not only do these batteries require large amounts of raw materials, including lithium, nickel and cobalt – mining for which has climate, environmental and human rights impacts – they also threaten to leave a mountain of electronic waste as they reach the end of their lives.
As the automotive industry starts to transform, experts say now is the time to plan for what happens to batteries at the end of their lives, to reduce reliance on mining and keep materials in circulation''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/20/electric-car-batteries-what-happens-to-them
We should not impede progress away from fossil fuel use although the political will needs to be there.
They will end up in landfill.
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''Millions of electric car batteries will retire in the next decade. What happens to them?''
''By one estimate, more than 12m tons of lithium-ion batteries are expected to retire between now and 2030.
Not only do these batteries require large amounts of raw materials, including lithium, nickel and cobalt – mining for which has climate, environmental and human rights impacts – they also threaten to leave a mountain of electronic waste as they reach the end of their lives.
As the automotive industry starts to transform, experts say now is the time to plan for what happens to batteries at the end of their lives, to reduce reliance on mining and keep materials in circulation''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/20/electric-car-batteries-what-happens-to-them
We should not impede progress away from fossil fuel use although the political will needs to be there.
They will end up in landfill.
So not much different from what we're doing now?
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Not at all most will get recycled as at the minute 97% of a battery can be recycled some will be used as home storage, so people with solar panels can put it in battery rather than selling it back to the grid.
Can also be used in areas with poor electrical connections I.e axholme where they get regular blackouts
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It is illegal to put these batteries into landfill, so that is nonsense.
They are worth a lot for alternative uses, or recycled for materials after a lifespan of 20 years or so.
The batteries will outlast the vehicle lifespan.
Alternatives to cobalt for cathodes will be mass produced in the near term, and other chemistries are in preparation;
https://techxplore.com/news/2021-08-scientists-technology-sustainable-next-generation-batteries.html
In the longer term, solid state batteries will be the norm;
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/08/solid-state-batteries-under-development-with-oxford-university-led-consortium/
Sorry if this will disappoint some, but technology moves forward!
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Not at all most will get recycled as at the minute 97% of a battery can be recycled some will be used as home storage, so people with solar panels can put it in battery rather than selling it back to the grid.
Can also be used in areas with poor electrical connections I.e axholme where they get regular blackouts
There's a punchline here but it's...it's...
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So we ban the sale of new new fossil fuel cars in a few years.
What about the 1.36 billion people in India who ride around on two stroke motors all the time.what are they doing?
Im not hearing any news from India about them banning fossil fuels?
We will be a drop in the ocean in comparison to these countries.
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So we ban the sale of new new fossil fuel cars in a few years.
What about the 1.36 billion people in India who ride around on two stroke motors all the time.what are they doing?
Im not hearing any news from India about them banning fossil fuels?
We will be a drop in the ocean in comparison to these countries.
And you're hardly likely to on a thread about electric cars, the thread about climate change is over there >>>>>
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I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I dithered a little bit but have gone with podpoint as it looks like bfyp has.
Had my Olev grant details approved on Friday and just waiting for the call about installation.
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Thanks Mush, I push pollies here for action on many subjects and it's all good info.
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I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I dithered a little bit but have gone with podpoint as it looks like bfyp has.
Had my Olev grant details approved on Friday and just waiting for the call about installation.
They were in touch within a few days and installed a few days later. Took about 3 hours or so as they have to connect to the mains directly and turn electric off etc. Works very well.
-
I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I dithered a little bit but have gone with podpoint as it looks like bfyp has.
Had my Olev grant details approved on Friday and just waiting for the call about installation.
They were in touch within a few days and installed a few days later. Took about 3 hours or so as they have to connect to the mains directly and turn electric off etc. Works very well.
Sounds good. Do you use their app? Is it needed/useful?
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I have it, but it's only really useful in their external chargers eg Tesco, they're handy if you're about anywhere and stopping anywhere and free too.
The app is better if full electric as then a tarrif at home for cheaper off peak electric is the way forward and the app allows the charge to be scheduled. But with the size of a hybrid battery it's not needed.
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Not at all most will get recycled as at the minute 97% of a battery can be recycled some will be used as home storage, so people with solar panels can put it in battery rather than selling it back to the grid.
Can also be used in areas with poor electrical connections I.e axholme where they get regular blackouts
There's a punchline here but it's...it's...
Arrggghhhh!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I dithered a little bit but have gone with podpoint as it looks like bfyp has.
Had my Olev grant details approved on Friday and just waiting for the call about installation.
They were in touch within a few days and installed a few days later. Took about 3 hours or so as they have to connect to the mains directly and turn electric off etc. Works very well.
Installed today, only took 2 hours or so.
Please with it, not as bulky as I feared looking at the pictures online, looks neat and tidy.
Charged up, took around 2.5 hours (hybrid, not a full electric).
Very happy with it. I’m looking forward to saving money on fuel!
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Latest Mercedes model looking at 620 miles per charge, with solar to be added to the roof.
Vid here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_c3gaO32g
That is the way the electric sector is moving.
Once solid state batteries are adopted at scale, we are in another transport economy.
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I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I got my BMW 330e hybrid about 6 weeks ago.
A welcome difference in my pay packet being a company car.
Love the car albeit not a lot of boot space.
But I feel like I’m filling it up every week as I’m not in a position at home to charge it. So the fuel does go quickly with no electric charge on it.
Just wondering if anybody can recommend an installer of an EV point please?
I’m pretty sure the cost of it will easily be covered over the next few months based on the fuel I’m currently putting in it.
Hey Mush, did you get a charger installed and were you able to use any of the government or did BMW have offers and discounts?
I dithered a little bit but have gone with podpoint as it looks like bfyp has.
Had my Olev grant details approved on Friday and just waiting for the call about installation.
They were in touch within a few days and installed a few days later. Took about 3 hours or so as they have to connect to the mains directly and turn electric off etc. Works very well.
Installed today, only took 2 hours or so.
Please with it, not as bulky as I feared looking at the pictures online, looks neat and tidy.
Charged up, took around 2.5 hours (hybrid, not a full electric).
Very happy with it. I’m looking forward to saving money on fuel!
Did they have to go inside your house to do any work?
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AL they didn't for mine, but my house is setup with electric externally so easy to do (it goes direct to the fuse box point and earthed from there, mine is all in the garage with the point outside the garage). So it depends how your electrics are set up.
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I drive up to Newcastle last weekend. Stopped off at wetherby services on the A1 so the dog could take a leak as well as myself. Took a walk around the car park. I reckon there must have been 350-400 parking places. And just 4 charging points. Yes, you read that right. 4. One of which was knackered. The other three were taken and while watching I saw two electric cars pull up only to realise they had to wait for one to become free, and then wait to charge theirs. So perhaps an hr or her and a half?
This is a pretty major stop off on the A1 for north and southbound traffic in this area.
If this is to work, every other space in that car park needs a plug in spot.
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Despite the clock ticking down for the ban on ICE vehicles coming in i'm yet to see this massive roll out of charging points coming to fruition. I reckon the date will get knocked back due covid or Boris and Carrie getting the elbow.
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It has to. We are just not geared up for this. Yet.
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The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.
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The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.
This is what i think too. I work in the trade and this is what we're waiting for. I wouldn't be spending my own money on an EV unless there was no other choice.
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They need to sort production issues out first though if it's ever going to happen. Ordered mine in July last year still not expected until at least April this.
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All new cars of all types are in very short supply.
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The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.
Exactly the opposite of what is happening.
Most manufacturers have moved away from fuel cells as a primary technology for cars, only Toyota and Hyundai keep a vehicle on the market, at very low sales volumes.
VW set out the reasons for choosing batteries over hydrogen;
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/volkswagen-explains-why-batteries-not-fuel-cells-are-the-right-choice-for-passenger-cars/
Hydrogen from green sources has a role to play, but not in fuel for cars.
Lorries and rail have a better case.
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The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.
Exactly the opposite of what is happening.
Most manufacturers have moved away from fuel cells as a primary technology for cars, only Toyota and Hyundai keep a vehicle on the market, at very low sales volumes.
VW set out the reasons for choosing batteries over hydrogen;
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/volkswagen-explains-why-batteries-not-fuel-cells-are-the-right-choice-for-passenger-cars/
Hydrogen from green sources has a role to play, but not in fuel for cars.
Lorries and rail have a better case.
I think i would trust technology developed by Toyota rather than anything VW could come up with.
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I wonder if VW batteries have the same fix on them as the emissions used to have?
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Axholme/Selby,
You are swimming against the tide here.
The year end sales data for 2021 shows where we are;
https://www.smmt.co.uk/2022/01/covid-stalls-2021-uk-new-car-market-but-record-ev-sales-show-future-direction/
By 2023 price parity will be reached when battery costs fall to $100 per KW.
Legacy vehicles will be more expensive as new purchases by then, and manufacturers still in this market will be left defending stranded assets in the new transport economy.
Diesel will soon be gone from new models, with petrol declining year on year.
Hydrogen is nowhere in this economy, because it is much more costly to develop, implement and use.
There is zero chance of H2 being a market leader for cars in the foreseeable future.
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We've just replaced a 48V battery on a self charging hybrid. Ouch!
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Albie, diesel was unknown when I was a kid for driving small cars and was the drive train of heavy goods vehicles and buses. as technical problems of size were overcome they eventually became the propulsion engine of the masses.
Now two things, they can clean up existing technology (add blue), or the Hydrogen infrastructure will have to be put in to move heavy loads and the Danes are already experimenting with manufacturing Hydrogen with wind power at sea from sea water.
Battery power is not exciting everybody, and big money is already looking at alternative's before batteries have got off the ground and are gaining public sympathy as the cost of the green agenda is starting to be transferred to them.
The economics of energy will determine the future power trains, the one thing that is for sure is to try and take the independence of personal transport from the masses will end up being the end of any government that tries it.
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Any political Party that puts in their next election manifesto we are not going green or woke get in.
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Any political Party that puts in their next election manifesto we are not going green or woke get in.
Dead right. The Tories need to get rid of BJ and worse still Nut Nut and her barmy ideas.
Labour need to bin off identity politics and allegiance to every lame duck cause of cranks they suck up to.
Anyone who wants to take cars away from the people want their head looking at.
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https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133800_china-s-gac-announces-hydrogen-combustion-engine#
For Albie
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Selby,
Your link just backs up what I am saying.
Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.
In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).
I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1
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Selby,
Your link just backs up what I am saying.
Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.
In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).
I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1
Do we know how much it costs to charge an electric car with enough juice to drive say 350 miles (if that's possible)? I know some of the claimed EV ranges are quite optimistic.
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Selby,
Your link just backs up what I am saying.
Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.
In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).
I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1
Do we know how much it costs to charge an electric car with enough juice to drive say 350 miles (if that's possible)? I know some of the claimed EV ranges are quite optimistic.
Depends on the price you pay. If you have an ev suitable tarrif it could be as low as £5-6. On a normal tarrif like mine you're looking at around £20. I get 30 miles typically from a £1.50 charge.
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Selby,
Your link just backs up what I am saying.
Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.
In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).
I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1
Do we know how much it costs to charge an electric car with enough juice to drive say 350 miles (if that's possible)? I know some of the claimed EV ranges are quite optimistic.
Depends on the price you pay. If you have an ev suitable tarrif it could be as low as £5-6. On a normal tarrif like mine you're looking at around £20. I get 30 miles typically from a £1.50 charge.
If you get 30 miles from a £1.50 charge, then 350 miles would actually cost you £17.50.......... I've just saved you £2.50 in a blink :blink:
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Selby,
Your link just backs up what I am saying.
Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.
In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).
I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1
Do we know how much it costs to charge an electric car with enough juice to drive say 350 miles (if that's possible)? I know some of the claimed EV ranges are quite optimistic.
Depends on the price you pay. If you have an ev suitable tarrif it could be as low as £5-6. On a normal tarrif like mine you're looking at around £20. I get 30 miles typically from a £1.50 charge.
If you get 30 miles from a £1.50 charge, then 350 miles would actually cost you £17.50.......... I've just saved you £2.50 in a blink :blink:
It would if your consumption was all level and equal but that's unlikely. It much depends on if that's long or short journeys. As with a petrol if you're doing more motorway driving it's less efficient. I assumed that the 350 miles would include that, my 30 usually doesn't as I'd drive it hybrid on a longer journey.
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So even if hydrogen turns out to be more expensive than electric it could be the same or less than petrol for a fill up?
I'd rather pay more for the convenience of just being able to fill up. Maybe we'll end up with a mix of hydrogen and electric vehilces like we now have petrol and diesel?
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Why have I got the feeling that electric vehicles will be charged twice, vat on their domestic bills and by the mile with the new tech that comes in on the speed limiter later this year.
Then the difference in price of an electric vehicle, compared with a well maintained diesel vehicle, it must give you a good few years free motoring as the price difference will buy quite a bit of fuel,
even if they make it more expensive.
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I don't understand what you are saying, Selby.
You will pay fuel duty on whatever power source you use, like you do on petrol/diesel today.
Why does VAT on domestic bills apply to using a fast charger at a charging station, over and above any duty levied at the application?
Clearly you have the option of installing home solar, so generating your own energy will not be VAT rated anyway.
The price parity point is thought to be 2023 or 2024....one/two years from now!
This is when the forecast battery cost falls to $100 per kw, meaning that EV will become cheaper than ICE vehicles to buy.
You seem to think an EV will continue to cost more than an ICE vehicle.
No-one in the industry will agree with that going forwards.
Rather than purchase, I think the market will move towards leasing as a business model.
Anyone still relying on ICE sales after 2025 will not be around for long, something all the major manufacturers have understood.
Axholme asked about costs. Here is a guide;
https://insights.leaseplan.co.uk/electric-vehicles/ev-news/electric-vehicle-cost/
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Not for me i think. I like to buy a car outright and keep it for a good few years. I don't like the idea of paying for something i will never own. To me PCP and leasing are just scams. I suppose if you feel the need for constantly updating your motor it's a good idea, but i don't. My Subaru has just had it's fifth year service and the garage told me it's like a brand new car, so it makes sense to me to keep it at no cost other than maintenance for a few years. i would probably get another petrol car just before the ban comes in and that should see me off. It must be more friendly to the environment to do this rather than getting a new car on a lease every three years.
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I also don’t fancy leasing a car.
I buy mine outright at the beginning and like to make the decision myself when to change it, usually about five or six years.
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I also don’t fancy leasing a car.
I buy mine outright at the beginning and like to make the decision myself when to change it, usually about five or six years.
If you get a good 'un you might as well keep it. I'm told that the Subaru Boxer engine will easily do 250K miles with regular oil changes.
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Not for me i think. I like to buy a car outright and keep it for a good few years. I don't like the idea of paying for something i will never own. To me PCP and leasing are just scams. I suppose if you feel the need for constantly updating your motor it's a good idea, but i don't. My Subaru has just had it's fifth year service and the garage told me it's like a brand new car, so it makes sense to me to keep it at no cost other than maintenance for a few years. i would probably get another petrol car just before the ban comes in and that should see me off. It must be more friendly to the environment to do this rather than getting a new car on a lease every three years.
Depends on the terms doesn't it? I take my company car option as opposed to the money. I wouldn't get much of a car for the amount I sacrifice and don't have to maintain it, insure it or tax it. That works great for my main car, but I do own my other car outright, I think that's a good balance.
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Not for me i think. I like to buy a car outright and keep it for a good few years. I don't like the idea of paying for something i will never own. To me PCP and leasing are just scams. I suppose if you feel the need for constantly updating your motor it's a good idea, but i don't. My Subaru has just had it's fifth year service and the garage told me it's like a brand new car, so it makes sense to me to keep it at no cost other than maintenance for a few years. i would probably get another petrol car just before the ban comes in and that should see me off. It must be more friendly to the environment to do this rather than getting a new car on a lease every three years.
Depends on the terms doesn't it? I take my company car option as opposed to the money. I wouldn't get much of a car for the amount I sacrifice and don't have to maintain it, insure it or tax it. That works great for my main car, but I do own my other car outright, I think that's a good balance.
Best of both worlds then?
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If you’re still thinking about buying an electric car, this article will be of interest to you
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2022/05/24/electric-car-revolution-needs-honest-data-to-avoid-consumer-backlash/?sh=3f64608754d3
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The price of EV will fall with production at scale, and reductions in battery costs.
It is true that models currently on sale in the UK are expensive, but it is not true in China, for example.
Market analysts expect this to move very quickly now take up is increasing across Europe.
The range question is really about consumer anxiety, and assumptions about how people use their vehicle.
Very few journeys are long end to end trips, requiring a recharge en route.
The installation of charging points will answer this problem. With a UK growth rate of 26% last year, this is not a worry which will persist;
https://twitter.com/colinmckerrache/status/1527200333713260546/photo/1
The sales figures across Europe show that the tipping point has been reached in many locations, and the industry is moving to that new business model.
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Very fair points in that article. The range on motorways is really quite poor and drops off considerably the faster you go, but it's more complex than that, there's a number of factors aswell. Still no doubt that the cost price of the vehicles is too high.
Worth noting that the production is still very slow. I still haven't got the one I ordered this time last year, though it is finally due in the next few weeks. I've waited that long they've actually discontinued the model.
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With the nearing D year of 2030 approaching, I just cannot see this ban on new petrol/diesel working. I cannot see the price of electric cars coming down either, especially given the current economic climate that will hurt for a good few years yet.
Happy to be proved wrong of course.
The change in infrastructure has to be dramatic. And it just isn’t.
There are still fillings stations being built around the country with no charging points for electric cars, which is beggars belief.
Our local Tesco filling station, which is huge with about 20 pumps, is just undergoing a complete overhaul including full replacement of all the fuel tanks . No provision for electric cars at all. And the car park which holds about 400 cars when full has 4 yes 4 charging points. !
Our local Asda, similar size, has no charging points at all
Some may argue the trip to the local supermarket does not need a charging point . But consider those living in rural areas. You spend an hr in a supermarket. It’s the perfect time to charge your car.
I drive 80 mile round trip to work at Lincoln. The car park there probably holds a few hundred cars. There are no charging points for personal cars. None. And no plans to have any installed either.
Given this is a footy forum, consider an away day. In an electric car. In winter. With a car full of mates. Swindon, Newport, Crawley, Leyton orient, Colchester, Walsall, Carlisle. To name but a few. These are currently trips where unless you have a range busting EV, you are going to have anxieties around getting there. Trips that would take you 2-3 hrs will take you considerably longer if you have to stop to charge. Then there is the issue of actually getting a charging point that is free and working.
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Fair points NR, from my own perspective a full electric would just require too much prior planning at this time to enable me to feel i could fulfill all my requirements. The range and infrastructure is just not there yet. Ive had a hybrid car for a couple of years now, BMW 330e and its a great car but my first thought was that it would cost me £330 a month in BIK less than the diesel version i had previously. The car on electric mode, though only short (high 20ish in good conditions)is nice but it does tend to be petrol mostly as I'm a bit lax in charging the thing.
Like you i feel the supposed big changeover date is still a bit premature but if they do ever sort out the main issues with the economy, build the infrastructure, get the range to something more akin to a ICE car then i could see it eventually taking off.
I still think the initial cost and the strength of the secondhand market for EV's is still something to work on.
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If , and it’s a big if, I ever take the dip into the ev market it will be for an older gen Prius. There is a booming market in the USA already for re balanced, regenerated batteries that you plop in and out of these cars. They are not the most attractive car on the market but who cares. A rebalanced battery in the us costs around $1500. There are YouTube vids showing how they are installed which looks easy too. It’s only a matter of time before a whole garage industry is set up in the uk doing this.I just wish they would build more Ev’s that have removable batteries. Not ones where the power packs are almost integral to the chassis. But we know why they do that don’t we?
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In all honesty I do not know what to do about my next car.
I still have pretty low mileage on the one I have now, I've kind of decided to keep running it as long as possible to put off the decision.
In itself keeping an old car going is quite green. The car you have now is probably the greenest, given the energy that goes into building a new one.
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I'm just wondering at what point driving instructors shift over to electric?
An electric is like driving a dodgem, do you just get a licence for electrics and automatics?
When we are no longer training people to use gears and a clutch is that it for proper cars?
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The crunch will come with the private owners at present with EV's in about four or five years time when they realise they own something that is worthless, needs expensive batteries replaced, and the second hand dealerships will give no guarantee on the batteries.
The hire companies will get rid at two or three years old and pass the problem on. I read a report from America that said batteries on new EV's lost 7% to 15% of their rechargeable power in the first twelve months affecting range when in daily use.
There could well be a diesel gate legal battle to come for the car industry that could dwarf the original court case involving EV's in years to come in my opinion and governments could well be dragged into it because of their legislation imposing change that could well turn out to be faulty.
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I've been driving an electric Hyundai Kona since March. Love it. Not had any issues with charging on public chargers so far, and it's probably the nicest drive I've ever had.
If you can afford it, look into Onto. All-inclusive 750 miles a month and you can buy mileage bolt ons to up that, includes free charging at the major networks other than Gridserve (which annoyingly is at most services, but InstaVolt are everywhere so not really an issue).
I've got a referral code 2db8b that'll get you £50 off your first month if anyone's fussed.
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Ah yes, the old referral code 2db8b.
That fills me with confidence for a start.
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In all honesty I do not know what to do about my next car.
I still have pretty low mileage on the one I have now, I've kind of decided to keep running it as long as possible to put off the decision.
In itself keeping an old car going is quite green. The car you have now is probably the greenest, given the energy that goes into building a new one.
Car ownership is changing that’s for sure. Slowly but surely. The days of going out, for some and just buying what you like are slowly ebbing away. It’s about getting just what you need for your budget. My kids have grown up and moved away. I don’t need a big car to get about. The vehicle I have for towing may not be around for too long. It’s a 2.7 v6 diesel. I’m giving serious thought to ditching the caravan too.
My youngest son lives in London. He tells me they have been around for a while but there is a system in the city where cars can be rented per minute. All through an app. It’s called zipcar I think. There are zip vans too. Most are electric. His mate used one recently to pop to ikea to get some furniture. He found a car via the app. Logged on . Got the keys from the secure under car locker and drive it for a couple of hours before parking it back up. All insurance covered for his trip. Only paid for the time he used.
I can see this being a growth area, especially in urban areas.
Car ownership in the coming years will become a luxury for many.
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Ah yes, the old referral code 2db8b.
That fills me with confidence for a start.
I mean I'd recommend it even without a referral code if that's what's bothering you.
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I've been driving an electric Hyundai Kona since March. Love it. Not had any issues with charging on public chargers so far, and it's probably the nicest drive I've ever had.
If you can afford it, look into Onto. All-inclusive 750 miles a month and you can buy mileage bolt ons to up that, includes free charging at the major networks other than Gridserve (which annoyingly is at most services, but InstaVolt are everywhere so not really an issue).
I've got a referral code 2db8b that'll get you £50 off your first month if anyone's fussed.
I’m interested if you have it on pcp. What’s the predicted resale? Depreciation? Battery warranty?
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I've been driving an electric Hyundai Kona since March. Love it. Not had any issues with charging on public chargers so far, and it's probably the nicest drive I've ever had.
If you can afford it, look into Onto. All-inclusive 750 miles a month and you can buy mileage bolt ons to up that, includes free charging at the major networks other than Gridserve (which annoyingly is at most services, but InstaVolt are everywhere so not really an issue).
I've got a referral code 2db8b that'll get you £50 off your first month if anyone's fussed.
I’m interested if you have it on pcp. What’s the predicted resale? Depreciation? Battery warranty?
I don't, I've got it on a monthly subscription which includes 750 miles, charging, insurance and maintenance. I'm looking at getting one on PCP though now I'm confident it suits my lifestyle.
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I've been driving an electric Hyundai Kona since March. Love it. Not had any issues with charging on public chargers so far, and it's probably the nicest drive I've ever had.
If you can afford it, look into Onto. All-inclusive 750 miles a month and you can buy mileage bolt ons to up that, includes free charging at the major networks other than Gridserve (which annoyingly is at most services, but InstaVolt are everywhere so not really an issue).
I've got a referral code 2db8b that'll get you £50 off your first month if anyone's fussed.
I’m interested if you have it on pcp. What’s the predicted resale? Depreciation? Battery warranty?
I don't, I've got it on a monthly subscription which includes 750 miles, charging, insurance and maintenance. I'm looking at getting one on PCP though now I'm confident it suits my lifestyle.
Dare I ask what this costs?
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NR. Yes my brother in law uses Zipcar occasionally around London. I read BMW are looking into this kind of car rental.
You might well be right about car ownership becoming more of a luxury.
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Just had a look at the website. They have the electric version of my own car, the Vw e up. 750 miles all in £379 per month. But then it’s gets expensive. Very expensive.
The Vw id4 is an watering £900 a month.
They claim car tax is included in the cost lol. It’s zero tax ffs (for now but ev will be taxed soon for sure)
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Just looked at the Kona. £609 per month. Jesus Christ! The last pcp car I had was a brand new bmw 320d m sport. It cost me £379 a month on a 0% deal they had on new 3 series saloons in 2019.
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Just looked at the Kona. £609 per month. Jesus Christ! The last pcp car I had was a brand new bmw 320d m sport. It cost me £379 a month on a 0% deal they had on new 3 series saloons in 2019.
Shop around you can get them cheaper, but they absolutely to me aren't worth buying. Still great for company car drivers.
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Double park – don’t lock the door
Push the pedals through the floor
Give it loads and then some more
It’s a hire car baby
Grip the stick – grind the gears
Watch that distance disappear
Never yours in a thousand years
It’s a hire car baby
Hire-car, hire-car
Why would anybody buy a car?
Bang it, prang it, say ta ta
It’s a hire car baby
Bad behaviour on the street
Save yourself a couple of sheets
Collision rate keeps it sweet
It’s a hire car baby
Show this motor no respect
Bump it, dump it, call collect
What else do the firm expect
It’s a hire car baby
Drive the f**ker anywhere
Just like you don’t care
Put it down to wear and tear
It’s a hire car baby
Pray the person who hired it last
Didn’t drive it quite so fast
This dakarum dodgem doesn’t last
It’s a hire car baby
Try not to kill yourself
Or injure anybody else
Don’t forget to fasten your belts
Rent it, dent it, bang it, prang it
Bump it, dump it, scorch it, torch it
Crash and burn it, don’t return it
Lost deposit, let ’em earn it
Who cares, it’s on the firm
It’s a hire car baby
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It will be interesting to see what petrol/ diesel new cars will be sold at in the uk in 2029. They will be sky high, or they will be giving them away.I suspect it won’t be the latter. Depends on the price of fuel I guess. Who wants a car that will cost £300 every time you need to fill up?
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Just looked at the Kona. £609 per month. Jesus Christ! The last pcp car I had was a brand new bmw 320d m sport. It cost me £379 a month on a 0% deal they had on new 3 series saloons in 2019.
Yeah, sounds on the steep side, but then when you factor in the cost of fuel (or electric), insurance, maintenance costs that may crop up, it's not a million miles away. My parents have a Ford Kuga 2011 and we pay similar amounts when you add everything up.
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I think some on here are underestimating the pace of change in battery tech development;
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/tesla-battery-longevity-100-years-nickel-b2086913.html
This is just 1 example, as the sector moves to reduce costs by replacing the most expensive elements from the mix.
The Lithium Ion batteries of today will be replaced by new batteries very quickly as production ramps up.
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I tried to read your link but it kept asking me to answer questions from dodgy solicitors? but if what you state come to fruition then it would be a massive game changer, something that i think the EV campaign needs to change perceptions on this technology, lets hope something materialises from it.
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Yes, it looks like the link has been moved into the "premium" section on their site.
Same story here, but a shortened version;
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-works-on-next-generation-high-energy-density-battery-that-lasts-for-a-lifetime-189598.html
Not to over focus on Tesla, but to show that the battery sector is moving quickly.
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local news saying a new lithium mine is not far from producing supplies which will see a large drop in prices over the next couple of years but little detail so far.
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some good news
''Electric cars could get cheaper as a crucial component in them drops in price''
''"The price increases we saw with lithium over the last 12 months have actually resulted in battery costs increasing around 30 per cent."''
''By the end of next year, Credit Suisse now predicts the spot price to dive by half to $US2,500 ($3,470) a tonne''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-09/electric-cars-lithium-price-batteries-credit-suisse/101135860
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Going solid state, Syd;
https://www.wired.com/story/the-next-challenge-for-solid-state-batteries-making-lots-of-them/
Chinese looking at Q4 this year to roll out.
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Some years off yet Albie but the sooner the better.
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The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.
A workmate of mine brother works at Toyota near Derby and he says that the Japanese are investing millions in to hydrogen power, they’ve even built a village/small town to test things out on, not just cars
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It's quite interesting what is happening in Japan, they are trying to decarbonise by 2050 and are pouring money into producing cheaper green hydrogen via solar installations and are developing H-fuel cells for transport and also want to use it for steel making. I don't doubt at all their ability to do this but whether they will be able to produce fuel cells that can be exported to run cars to compete with batteries is debateable.
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Green hydrogen is a good option for steel and cement industries, but much less viable for vehicles.
Long distance haulage maybe, but some years down the line.
EV will be the industry standard before 2030, perhaps by 2025.
Fast charging will help, if this story is accurate;
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/news/new-electric-car-battery-can-27231204
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Forgot to add that the economic case for EV has moved along with the rise in fuel costs.
I reckon the tipping point is here, and there will be rapid change going forwards.
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Forgot to add that the economic case for EV has moved along with the rise in fuel costs.
I reckon the tipping point is here, and there will be rapid change going forwards.
This doesn’t take into consideration the stupid high prices for them.
I drive a Vw up 1.0. An electric one costs upwards of 23grand! Mine cost me 5k.
I’d have to own an e up for some years before it became more economically viable. And I don’t get range anxiety.
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You can get a 2nd hand Nissan Leaf for £5k.
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From £29, 790 new and only a three year warranty Billy, £5 grand second hand? A big hit that Billy and who would give you a warranty on second hand batteries. No thanks.
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You can get a 2nd hand Nissan Leaf for £5k.
A 5 grand leaf will have a greatly reduced battery capacity. And I dread to think what a replacement would cost.
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I see the much anticipated Vw Id buzz is out for pre order. The modern battery version of the famous microbus.
Yours FROM £57,000!!!!!!!
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Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.
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Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.
Had my new one two weeks now. It's great, don't knock them until you try them.
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Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.
The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?
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Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.
The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?
I don't care as long as i can fill up and drive away without faffing around with charging.
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Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.
The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?
I don't care as long as i can fill up and drive away without faffing around with charging.
Even though the Laws of Thermodynamics says that you use more energy to get the hydrogen into a usable state than you get from the hydrogen itself? That's a hell of a waste of energy that has to come from somewhere.
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Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.
The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?
I don't care as long as i can fill up and drive away without faffing around with charging.
Even though the Laws of Thermodynamics says that you use more energy to get the hydrogen into a usable state than you get from the hydrogen itself? That's a hell of a waste of energy that has to come from somewhere.
Isn't that also the case with charging an EV. How is the electric generated?
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https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/7/7/lithiums-insane-costs-threaten-ev-fix-for-climate-change
Oh dear...
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Hold out for hydrogen, EVs are the betamax of the future.
The big question is though, where do you get energy you need to harness the hydrogen from?
I don't care as long as i can fill up and drive away without faffing around with charging.
Even though the Laws of Thermodynamics says that you use more energy to get the hydrogen into a usable state than you get from the hydrogen itself? That's a hell of a waste of energy that has to come from somewhere.
Isn't that also the case with charging an EV. How is the electric generated?
Generating electricity is a one-stage energy conversion only one inefficiency. Obtaining hydrogen in a usable state is at least a two-stage energy conversion so much more inefficient and uses more energy in total.
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Cheaper solar EV in the pipeline;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjoHimaqqfY
Be interesting to see how the big boys react to new kids stealing their lunch!
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Cheaper solar EV in the pipeline;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjoHimaqqfY
Be interesting to see how the big boys react to new kids stealing their lunch!
A £21000 price tag would appeal.
Go on their website though. It starts at 29000euro.
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An interesting piece.
“This machine is required to move 500 tons of earth/ ore which will be refined into one lithium car battery. It burns 900-1000 gallons of fuel in a 12 hour shift.
Lithium is refined from ore using sulfuric acid. The proposed lithium mine at Thacker Pass is estimated to require up to 75 semi loads of sulfuric acid a day! The acid does not turn into unicorn food like AOC believes.
A battery in an electric car, lets say an average Tesla, is made of 25 pounds of lithium, 60 pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds of cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic, etc...... averaging 750-1,000 pounds
of minerals, that had to be mined and processed into a battery that merely stores electricity..... Electricity which is generated by oil, gas, coal, nuclear, or water (and a tiny fraction of wind and solar)....
That is the truth, about the lie, of "green" energy.
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A battery is not energy.
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Normal Rules,
I don't know where you got that info from, but it is highly misleading.
Battery chemistry is evolving, and changing at speed.
Stripping out expensive components is the goal, to lower manufacturing costs.
Here is one example;
https://youtu.be/IBE0NADjSrE
Worth a watch.
There are others, and all these developments are falling down a technology cost curve, not a rising cost of scarce raw materials problem.
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They may strip out the main reliance of cobalt, which there are already concerns about terrestrial supplies, but the shift will be to nickel based, where there are concerns also.
Lithium sulphur is spoken about, but they reckon they are 5-10 years from this.
In the meantime, the earth will continue to be ravaged for cobalt, and the other precious metals needed.
And lord help us if the go ahead and mine huge swathes if the ocean bed.
A small-scale simulated mining experiment was done in 1989 to see what deep seabed mining did. “Scientists have returned to the site four times, most recently in 2015,” an article in Nature explained. “The site has never recovered. In the ploughed areas, which remain as visible today as they were 30 years ago, there’s been little return of characteristic animals such as sponges, soft corals and sea anemones.”
We have f**ked our atmosphere. We are on the brink of f**king the deep oceans too.
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Got an interesting email from my local Vw dealer trying to impress on me the wonder of the new VW ID range. Now I would class myself as lower middle class. I have some decent savings, investments and I am lucky enough to be a mortgage paid home owner.
But these figures are eye watering . I quite like the look of the new VW ID Bus. But take a look at their example finance package.
VOLKSWAGEN ID.BUZZ 150KW LIFE PRO 77KWH
Duration
49 months
Monthly Payments
48 × £627
Customer Deposit
£5,711.50
Recommended On The Road Price
£57,115
Total Amount of Credit
£51,403.50
Optional Final Payment
£33,398.91
Total Amount Payable
£69,216.41
Option to Purchase Fee
£10
Annual Mileage
10,000
Excess (per mile)
9.9p
Rate of Interest p.a.
7.16% Fixed
£627 a month! That’s a mortgage payment! For a car! And after 4 years of hurt. You still owe over 33 grand! This is just for the basic model.
I don’t expect to see many of these on UK roads. Who in their right mind would pay this? Utterly ludicrous sums of money, from a brand who prided themselves years ago for creating the peoples car.
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My neighbour took delivery of a BMW estate company car duel fuel about six months ago, the other day we bumped into each other I asked what he thought to it.
Great was the answer I have just come back from a golf day in South Wales it went great.
Silly me asked how long did he drive on the batteries. "Oh I haven't used them since the first fortnight, they only do about 27miles I use the petrol engine all the time charging the batteries is a pain "
What? that's progress banging about in a tuned up small petrol engine getting about 42 miles to the gallon and knocking the guts out of it. not for me I am afraid.
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Conversely I've now done nearly 2000 miles in my new one. Spent less than £100 on fuel so far.
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My neighbour took delivery of a BMW estate company car duel fuel about six months ago, the other day we bumped into each other I asked what he thought to it.
Great was the answer I have just come back from a golf day in South Wales it went great.
Silly me asked how long did he drive on the batteries. "Oh I haven't used them since the first fortnight, they only do about 27miles I use the petrol engine all the time charging the batteries is a pain "
What? that's progress banging about in a tuned up small petrol engine getting about 42 miles to the gallon and knocking the guts out of it. not for me I am afraid.
Given it’s a company car, it’s likely he won’t pay for fuel in any case.
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So, with one kWh of leccy going up to 52p and the average ev taking 29.6 kwh to fully charge, that’s £15 per full charge. If you charge every night. Which I’m guessing most people would, that’s £105 a week. But every day there would be effective unused charge?
I wonder how much wastage there is charging evs for charge they don’t use?
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You don't not use it. It's the same as having fuel in the tank it doesn't go anywhere. You charge when you need to not every night but if you did keep it full the cost would be just what you've used.
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Conversely I've now done nearly 2000 miles in my new one. Spent less than £100 on fuel so far.
What model did you buy? Was it worth the wait?
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Conversely I've now done nearly 2000 miles in my new one. Spent less than £100 on fuel so far.
What model did you buy? Was it worth the wait?
Passat gte, company car though so the cost doesn't massively come in to it, in fact it's cheaper than a full petrol would be tax wise.
Nice car though, got everything I need, quiet, comfortable and easy to drive. Can't really fault it if you want something smart and efficient enough. Absolutely wouldn't buy one myself though, couldn't justify the £35k+ price imo.
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You don't not use it. It's the same as having fuel in the tank it doesn't go anywhere. You charge when you need to not every night but if you did keep it full the cost would be just what you've used.
All well and good, unless your ev does around 160 ( Vw e up) mile to a charge. And you have an 80 mile commute every day. Then you charge every night. Because not to, would invoke certain range anxiety. Especially in the winter when you won’t be getting anywhere near 160 to a charge.
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The China made BYD Atto 3 looks like a viable option. Uk release later this year and expected price around 25k. Good range. Good looks . Good quality. They are already shifting loads of them in Australia. They have outstripped Tesla in sales so far this year to be the single biggest ev supplier. They are partnered with Toyota also.
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You don't not use it. It's the same as having fuel in the tank it doesn't go anywhere. You charge when you need to not every night but if you did keep it full the cost would be just what you've used.
All well and good, unless your ev does around 160 ( Vw e up) mile to a charge. And you have an 80 mile commute every day. Then you charge every night. Because not to, would invoke certain range anxiety. Especially in the winter when you won’t be getting anywhere near 160 to a charge.
Well firstly that's no different to the same scenario with fuel, it's in fact easier as you just plug in at home. And secondly you would either get a bigger range or not bother at all if you drive long distances frequently until the range is even bigger. Most of those I know with a Tesla for example find it no issue as they'd stop for a drink on a long drive anyway and can nearly fully charge in 45 minutes.
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The general point NR is making is very valid.
A typical small ICE car might do 8-10 miles per litre of fuel. At, say £1.75/litre, that's about 20p/mile.
A typical EV does 3 miles/kWh. The price of electric was 18p/kWh last year, so that was 6p/mile. That was a no brainer. But I've had a quote of 75p/kWh for next year! That makes it 25p/mile. This is going to be a very serious drag on new uptake.
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https://youtu.be/ay2mO7AlBU8
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The general point NR is making is very valid.
A typical small ICE car might do 8-10 miles per litre of fuel. At, say £1.75/litre, that's about 20p/mile.
A typical EV does 3 miles/kWh. The price of electric was 18p/kWh last year, so that was 6p/mile. That was a no brainer. But I've had a quote of 75p/kWh for next year! That makes it 25p/mile. This is going to be a very serious drag on new uptake.
My understanding is that, as a general rules of thumb, an ice car is around 10p per mile whereas an ev is around half that. This is very general of course.
But, this is about to change with standing charges for leccy about to double. And go up again next year. And all this with the backdrop of falling fuel prices.
I’m certainly not being swayed towards ev any time soon.
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Another thing, whilst the uk govt is banning the sale of new ice cars from 2030, I’m guessing the production of fossil fuels will continue un abated. Of course there will still be ice cars on the road, but their numbers will slowly decline. Less demand for petrol and diesel will surely drive the price down? The big suppliers will have excess stocks to shift?
That’s said, I’m sure the uk govt will tax fossil fuels and their users to the hilt. But let’s not forget, if everyone was driving an ev, you can bet your life they will soon feature in car taxation brackets also. And it will be interesting to see how they figure that one out.
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The general point NR is making is very valid.
A typical small ICE car might do 8-10 miles per litre of fuel. At, say £1.75/litre, that's about 20p/mile.
A typical EV does 3 miles/kWh. The price of electric was 18p/kWh last year, so that was 6p/mile. That was a no brainer. But I've had a quote of 75p/kWh for next year! That makes it 25p/mile. This is going to be a very serious drag on new uptake.
My understanding is that, as a general rules of thumb, an ice car is around 10p per mile whereas an ev is around half that. This is very general of course.
But, this is about to change with standing charges for leccy about to double. And go up again next year. And all this with the backdrop of falling fuel prices.
I’m certainly not being swayed towards ev any time soon.
At £1.80/litre (roughly £8/gallon) you'd have to do 80mpg to make it 10p/mile.
EVs WERE about 5p/mile a year ago. Not any more.
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1.59 a litre near me.
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Then you'd need to do 72mpg.
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The general point NR is making is very valid.
A typical small ICE car might do 8-10 miles per litre of fuel. At, say £1.75/litre, that's about 20p/mile.
A typical EV does 3 miles/kWh. The price of electric was 18p/kWh last year, so that was 6p/mile. That was a no brainer. But I've had a quote of 75p/kWh for next year! That makes it 25p/mile. This is going to be a very serious drag on new uptake.
I absolutely get this and I can use both so I'm lucky. I've worked it out for my car at a standard tarrif for 52p per kWh it would cost me £5.93 to fully charge (on my current tarrif it's £2.09 and used to be less). On pure petrol I get 16-17p per mile roughly versus 24p it will end up costing on electric (this time last year it was 5p a mile).
So I won't charge at home but I can charge for free at work, I'm still a winner. If you can't do that then you wouldn't though and it does make it more expensive.
Opens up another conversation potentially for the future. Can we afford to move away from petrol/diesel? We have to consider that.
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The general point NR is making is very valid.
A typical small ICE car might do 8-10 miles per litre of fuel. At, say £1.75/litre, that's about 20p/mile.
A typical EV does 3 miles/kWh. The price of electric was 18p/kWh last year, so that was 6p/mile. That was a no brainer. But I've had a quote of 75p/kWh for next year! That makes it 25p/mile. This is going to be a very serious drag on new uptake.
I absolutely get this and I can use both so I'm lucky. I've worked it out for my car at a standard tarrif for 52p per kWh it would cost me £5.93 to fully charge (on my current tarrif it's £2.09 and used to be less). On pure petrol I get 16-17p per mile roughly versus 24p it will end up costing on electric (this time last year it was 5p a mile).
So I won't charge at home but I can charge for free at work, I'm still a winner. If you can't do that then you wouldn't though and it does make it more expensive.
Opens up another conversation potentially for the future. Can we afford to move away from petrol/diesel? We have to consider that.
Charging for free at work is a luxury. I can’t see many places doing this .
And the real biggy for me is the cost of ev’s in the first place. Someone said on here that over time they would come down in price. Statistics show that despite their increase in popularity. Pound for pound, they are not getting cheaper. Far from it.
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The general point NR is making is very valid.
A typical small ICE car might do 8-10 miles per litre of fuel. At, say £1.75/litre, that's about 20p/mile.
A typical EV does 3 miles/kWh. The price of electric was 18p/kWh last year, so that was 6p/mile. That was a no brainer. But I've had a quote of 75p/kWh for next year! That makes it 25p/mile. This is going to be a very serious drag on new uptake.
I absolutely get this and I can use both so I'm lucky. I've worked it out for my car at a standard tarrif for 52p per kWh it would cost me £5.93 to fully charge (on my current tarrif it's £2.09 and used to be less). On pure petrol I get 16-17p per mile roughly versus 24p it will end up costing on electric (this time last year it was 5p a mile).
So I won't charge at home but I can charge for free at work, I'm still a winner. If you can't do that then you wouldn't though and it does make it more expensive.
Opens up another conversation potentially for the future. Can we afford to move away from petrol/diesel? We have to consider that.
Ev car makers are not making it too clear about cost per mile for these cars either. We have seen for years that mpg and taxation brackets have been made clear at point of sale ( diesel gate aside) . Yet all ev makers sing about is range and charging time.
The current hike in leccy is levelling off the diff between running costs of ice and ev. The makers of which won’t want to talk about I guess.
They may say this is a 60 kWh battery etc etc but the average joe in the street will have no idea what this actually relates to and what impact it has on leccy use.
And if you did not need any more convincing on the subject, ask yourself this. Why are ev makers not designing cars that have a very easy and quick way to replace the batteries in them. Like you would in a torch, or anything battery operated for that matter.
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The general point NR is making is very valid.
A typical small ICE car might do 8-10 miles per litre of fuel. At, say £1.75/litre, that's about 20p/mile.
A typical EV does 3 miles/kWh. The price of electric was 18p/kWh last year, so that was 6p/mile. That was a no brainer. But I've had a quote of 75p/kWh for next year! That makes it 25p/mile. This is going to be a very serious drag on new uptake.
BST,
Most EV owners are expected to charge overnight, at the lowest tariff rates, not at peak prices.
The exception might be those with solar, using the excess into a parked vehicle during the day.
In addition, the link between electricity prices and wholesale gas costs will be broken in the near future. The EU are expected to change this in October, and the UK will need to follow suit in consequence.
Once that change is brought in, electricity markets will find their own level, and because an increasing percentage of UK electricity is produced from cheap renewables, the unit costs will fall.
The restriction that the UK needs to introduce is to reserve sufficient for UK use, rather than allowing the new capacity to feed international markets. Energy export tariffs is one mechanism to that purpose.
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Albie.
I get all that but there are still likely to be high electricity costs for the next year or two at least. You aren't going to be able to wean us off gas as a major producer of electricity in the blink of an eye.
Regarding charging overnight, that's fine if you have an Economy7 meter (which of course you should if you have an EV and the ability to charge at home). An issue with that is, my understanding is that it was considerably harder to get dual fuel rates (when there were deals to be had) if you had an E7 meter. Sounds like an important thing to be sorted out if a d when we ever get back to non-crisis conditions.
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I looked into E7 tariffs when i got my hybrid car, after working through the tariffs it was cheaper to charge your car overnight compared with the tariffs other company's were offering for EV use(even the Octopus 5p per kWh between 0001 and 04.00) But the payback was for domestic use, the charges where higher so your overall costs increased.
Did anyone else get this impression?
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We've bitten the bullet and are getting solar panels and a battery installed. That makes it a no brainer to go into an E7 tariff.
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We've bitten the bullet and are getting solar panels and a battery installed. That makes it a no brainer to go into an E7 tariff.
Interested to hear about spec and price
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''Printed solar cells to power electric vehicle enthusiast Stuart McBain in Charge Around Australia
Stuart McBain is no stranger to pushing electric vehicles (EVs) to their limits.
Key points:
An EV will be driven 15,000km around Australia to test printed solar
Printed solar has been in development at the University of Newcastle for 27 years
It could one day be incorporated into the body of an EV
He was the first person to drive one right around the United Kingdom, just to prove you could do it, and did the same in Iceland.
But his next EV challenge is possibly his greatest yet.
The accountant from Liverpool in the UK has swapped the overcast chilly climate of home for the beaming hot outback, as he sets off from Newcastle in New South Wales for a lap of Australia.
Inside his EV are rolls of printed solar and they will be used to help power the vehicle on the 15,000-kilometre trip''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-02/printed-solar-cells-power-electric-vehicle-charge-australia/101394840
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Thieves are targeting public charging cables for the copper content.
So, you’ve spent a second mortgage on your ev, you arrive at you charging point with low charge, only to find there are no cables.
Good luck.
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I'll stick to petrol cars. Much less hassle.
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And you can bet your life that those with on street parking will suffer the same fate. There is little to stop thieves taking these. And for those that think that anti theft measures such as at the plug in points will help, think again, the thieving idiots are using bolt croppers while the cars are plugged in to get around this .
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The Chinese are producing lower cost smaller EV's at scale;
https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/04/the-wuling-bingo-shines-in-china-silver-badge-good-news-for-global-market/
Once these get to international markets, the big beasts of the western motor economy are in for a rinse, unless they do the same.
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Then you'd need to do 72mpg.
my little 1.0 litre vw up does between 50 and 70mpg.
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Not as green as we’re led to believe
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10161697/Volvo-says-electric-car-making-emissions-70-HIGHER-petrol.html
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I’m hearing more and more murmurs in the media that the govt are having second thoughts on the 2030 New ICE car ban. Citing insufficient infrastructure.
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I’m hearing more and more murmurs in the media that the govt are having second thoughts on the 2030 New ICE car ban. Citing insufficient infrastructure.
I have always thought that was likely to happen.
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Chinese BYD now bringing their hatchback to the UK:
https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/26/byd-dolphin-looks-set-to-make-big-splash-in-uk-australia-new-zealand/
It will be interesting to see how the UK and EU auto sector respond.
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I suspect they won't, I don't see how those markets can compete with Chinese manufacturing unfortunately.
Got our first full ev yesterday alongside our plug in hybrid, will be interesting to see how we get on with it.
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I have a Citroen C5 SUV 1.6 diesel car I fill it up with JET super fuel every time yesterday checked the cost per mile filling up of 547 miles on the trip meter I change every time I fill up 12.6p per mile doing motor way and trunk roads etc and in towns.
At the height of fuel prices it was just over 18p that's using premium price fuel only basically the same pump.
Add blue engine so clean, not carrying heavy battery dead weight, only done 4k in it since new January and very pleased with it especially on long journeys which I do as much as short ones.
I reckon about 10p per mile if only using standard diesel so the up front cost of a similar car top of the range electric would allow the purchase of a lot of diesel and does away with fuel anxiety on long journeys especially in winter when I do the longest journeys going to football games.
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I have a Citroen C5 SUV 1.6 diesel car I fill it up with JET super fuel every time yesterday checked the cost per mile filling up of 547 miles on the trip meter I change every time I fill up 12.6p per mile doing motor way and trunk roads etc and in towns.
At the height of fuel prices it was just over 18p that's using premium price fuel only basically the same pump.
Add blue engine so clean, not carrying heavy battery dead weight, only done 4k in it since new January and very pleased with it especially on long journeys which I do as much as short ones.
I reckon about 10p per mile if only using standard diesel so the up front cost of a similar car top of the range electric would allow the purchase of a lot of diesel and does away with fuel anxiety on long journeys especially in winter when I do the longest journeys going to football games.
Add to that Selby that electric cars range plummets in cold weather.
Would be interesting to see the co2 emissions of buying a used car like this and keeping it for say 5 years compared to the co2 created from the manufacture and charging of a brand new electric car over the same period. Can’t be much in it.
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Of course all of that is hugely different if you're a company car driver.
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ncRover,
The range reduction of an EV in extreme cold is about 20%.
This is more than offset by the increase in range capacity of modern batteries compared to first gen from 2010ish.
The data is contained in this post:
https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electric-cars-cold
You can see that the market share of EV is much higher in the nordic countries, where the colder climate does not seem to be an issue.
On your point about carbon emissions, you cannot compare a new electric vehicle with a second hand purchase of a different technology.
The lifetime emission profile is the correct measure, not a snapshot at a particular time.
This data is available online if you are really interested.
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Thanks albie.
You’d think the range would keep improving and that it will get more affordable also as the technology becomes better and more widespread.
I just think the ban on new petrol and diesel from 2030 is premature.
6.6 million UK households don’t have off-street parking.
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Vw are scaling back prod of ev’s.
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Report out yesterday by insurance companies on electric cars.
Relatively minor accidents in electric only and dual fuel cars are causing concern that will be reflected in much higher insurance premiums than for ice cars.
Minor accidents that effect the batteries are resulting in the car being scrapped because of the cost of replacement, in the case of Tesla £28k + and lower priced cars £15k+ add other costs such as specialist labour a high percentage are being scrapped even nearly new cars are deemed to be not as valuable as the repair because of the big valuation drop in second hand electric cars.
Another problem is the time scale of parts supply especially batteries being supplied to do the repairs and the specialist labour needed to do the repairs, you can't just go to the local repair shop.
Expect insurance premiums to rocket way above combustion and diesel cars.
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Not sure about that, Selby.
The Sun ran a story on this, but it is not exactly a reliable source is it?
Insurance costs are rising for all drivers, part of the cost of living crisis:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/25/uk-drivers-complain-as-car-insurance-renewal-costs-rise-up-to-70
Which gives figures for EV drivers in comparison to different types of user;
https://www.which.co.uk/money/insurance/car-insurance/electric-car-insurance-an1rC7l1KnBY
It looks much of a muchness to me...little real difference at the moment, but as always, things might change.
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Motors cost more to replace than a horse and cart once, we didn't stick with those did we?
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I can’t hear the buggers coming!
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Well I've finally got my EV (couple of weeks ago) and absolutely love it. Honestly can't see me ever going back to an ICE.
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Just ordered one for my next lease, let me know how you get on Superspy pls
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Well I've finally got my EV (couple of weeks ago) and absolutely love it. Honestly can't see me ever going back to an ICE.
I'm still tempted to have one of each. But that will depend on how the world lies when I replace these two in 3 years.
With the new full electric we have it's surprisingly quick to charge on the rapid charger and on a recent trip my other half had no issues getting a near full charge in whilst stopping for a quick 30 minute break.
We're not taking it to Scotland on a trip there soon though, there isn't a great infrastructure in the area we're heading hence still liking having both options.
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My concern is, once fully electric is the only option, how much will the cost of running them be? I recall when Tony Blair told us all to drive diesel vehicles to save the environment the price of diesel went up astronomically.
Bearing in mind that we still had an alternative fuel option then, and presuming we will have no other option when conventional petrol and diesel vehicles are banned in 2030, I reckon there's a fair chance we're gonna be unprecedently ripped off.
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Some will put solar on the roof, BB.
Getting cheaper every year now.
Once Dogger Bank wind is complete, leccy prices in the UK should begin to fall.
EV is a good way to mop up the excess produced at night by the offshore wind.
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Well I've finally got my EV (couple of weeks ago) and absolutely love it. Honestly can't see me ever going back to an ICE.
I'm still tempted to have one of each. But that will depend on how the world lies when I replace these two in 3 years.
With the new full electric we have it's surprisingly quick to charge on the rapid charger and on a recent trip my other half had no issues getting a near full charge in whilst stopping for a quick 30 minute break.
We're not taking it to Scotland on a trip there soon though, there isn't a great infrastructure in the area we're heading hence still liking having both options.
Yeah it definitely makes sense to have both options for those who do super long trips fairly often.
In our case we're down to 1 car after having 2 for years, and our average daily drive is usually less than 20 miles - covid was the cause for both of those things as it resulted in us both working from home permanently. Our EV has a range of 300+ miles (real world it likely won't get that but the point is it's a pretty big battery) and for the odd occasion where we might go further I'm happy to build a charging stop into the travel planning. It's a small inconvenience stacked against running 2 cars or hiring an ICE for the 2 or 3 times a year we might go further afield.
We'll be flying from East Midlands this year...60 miles give or take...full charge on the car more than enough to get us there and back so it's all we need.
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My concern is, once fully electric is the only option, how much will the cost of running them be? I recall when Tony Blair told us all to drive diesel vehicles to save the environment the price of diesel went up astronomically.
Bearing in mind that we still had an alternative fuel option then, and presuming we will have no other option when conventional petrol and diesel vehicles are banned in 2030, I reckon there's a fair chance we're gonna be unprecedently ripped off.
BB they are not banned in 2030 just production of new.
Mindst whichever party is in power I wonder if that will still happen. Green policies seem to be going to the wall on both sides
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Another kick between the legs again in a report out today. the top twenty car models with the biggest depreciation in the first twelve months are all electric vehicles.
With manufacturers pulling manufacturing levels, the problems with repairs, spare parts, trained mechanics, lack of infrastructure, the initial cost of the vehicles, and now the insurance industry looking to hike the premiums significantly, the problems are now beginning to raise their head.
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Apparently there is talk of upping the road tax on electric cars because their extra weight causes more pothole damage than ICE cars.
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For the record I do think EVs are the future.
But what infrastructure is being proposed to enable the 6.6 million UK households with no off-street parking the capability to charge an EV?
Perhaps it’s not considered at the moment as it’s mostly the middle classes and the well-off with driveways buying EVs. Charging points are also costly to install.
The used market for petrol and diesel will see huge inflation in the build up to the 2030 new car ban. Those in a low socio-economic group will be driving around in older, less efficient and higher polluting cars as a result.
BFYP is correct though that capitalism generally sees new technologies get cheaper as well as better. But the example of the motor vs the horse and cart is the market being left to do its thing. The government didn’t ban the horse and cart. The 2030 new ICE car ban is a huge government intervention and the transition to EVs would happen in a more cost-efficient and practical manner for the consumer otherwise I think.
Are the lithium iron batteries recyclable? Does the earth have a infinite amount of the minerals needed to manufacture these batteries? Is the extraction of them environmentally friendly?
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The motor industry is now pushing for the 2030 sales of ice cars to be pushed back as more and more problems arise with the electric cars become apparent.
Repair shops of EV's are now obliged to park damaged cars at least 15 metres apart because of the risk of fire with damaged batteries which puts up costs and minimises numbers in repair shops.
Repair costs are now so high that cars with minor damage, but in the battery storage area where costs to replace are high are being scrapped, and a report also adds that an EV has to do 90,000 miles to warrant the additional cost of an ice car, and with the battery life averaging about 60,000 miles and the astronomical cost of renewing the batteries can never be economical and the cost of extracting the materials to manufacture the batteries means that an EV is more polluting than the ICE cars it is supposed to replace.
What a balls up.
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I don't know where this barmy idea about manufacturers scaling back is from.
All the big players have a business plan to transition to electric at speed.
Here is the up to date list:
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/new-cars/current-upcoming-pure-electric-car-guide-updated/
Anyone who stands still will be swept away by our old friend exponential growth.
The car makers have got the message.
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Just watched an expert start to take wind power apart as it is costing up to eight times the cost of generating power by gas.
Also he has opened up the debate on reliability of wind power, and opened up the fact that the manufacturers are building the fields and selling them to our pension firms.
That means you and I will pay the price of repairing clapped out old wind pylons in the future, it is going to be the biggest con ever, fortunately the people who are up to what their plans are have now got a voice on TV. and the public domain, although I expect some on here to put dark glasses and ear plugs in when the truth is exposed.
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Hound,
Battery development is leading to higher energy density.
This means that you can have greater range from a given weight of battery, or reduce the battery weight for an equal performance.
The sweet spot is likely to be reducing overall weight while extending range to some extent.
Range is not really an issue any more for a modern EV.
The best way of increasing performance is by lightweighting the overall vehicle, but battery technology is moving fast;
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/catl-touts-breakthrough-cold-weather-ev-charging-2023-07-06/
Some of the silly myths posted on here are debunked here;
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/common-misconceptions-about-electric-vehicles/common-misconceptions-about-electric-vehicles
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That’s quite informative Albie, thanks. But you or the government page don’t answer my main question.
“Most drivers charge at home and we expect to see this trend to continue.”
So how do 6.6 million households without a driveway or garage charge an EV?
“There are more than enough global resources for EV batteries to meet the UK and global demands [until at least 2050](Publications - The Faraday Institution. Production will need to scale up in line with the increasing demand for EVs.”
2050 is not very far away. Yes it mentions there could be an increase in a circular economy through recycling but is vague on the details. That being said there is still an abundance of non-renewables after scare-mongering that they would run out so I guess the same applies.
“We expect continued, accelerated deployment of public chargepoints. On average, over 600 new chargers are being added to the UK’s road network each month”
There are 31,000 public charge points currently. That’s another 7200 each year so 80,000 in place. There are 32 million cars registered in the UK, 250,000 of which are electric.
According to a report by the Local Government Association, by 2030, it is anticipated that there will be between approximately 8 million and 11 million hybrid or electric cars in the UK, if uptake is aligned with the Road to Zero (RTZ) targets.
That’s not many public chargers for that amount of expected EVs to make up for those that can’t charge at home.
Do you also think that the cost of used cars will go up around 2030 and price low income people out of getting a vehicle? Because we’re only 6 years away and the average cost of a new EV is just shy of £50k.
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ncRover,
Those who do not charge at home will go to a charging station, in just the same way as an ICE driver goes to a filling station.
No-one would expect an ICE driver to have a petrol station at his/her house, would they?
These facilities will grow in proportion to demand, and there are already more charge points in the UK than petrol pumps.
Purchase prices will reduce as volume enters the market, and Chinese imports are pushing that reduction.
The cost will decline on the technology model, like computers did in the past.
Once purchase prices for similar spec models reach parity, the market will tip rapidly.
Manufacturers know this, hence the stampede to refurbish their production facilities to make EV rather than ICE.
Very difficult to say if used car prices will move in 2030, and which way.
What assumption do you make about availability of supplies, and the geopolitical situation?
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NCR that average price is the only thing going for the car manufacturers, giving them bigger profits.
Less parts to the drive train means less costs, most parts supplied by cheap labour in China who have cornered that market, and educated idiots who have fallen for the guff.
The concept is gathering exposure to the problems after two or three years of everyone fornicating over it and the golden chalice of it being the in thing to have on the drive for those of a certain disposition of one upmanship and their bank account on the drive.
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Report out yesterday by insurance companies on electric cars.
Relatively minor accidents in electric only and dual fuel cars are causing concern that will be reflected in much higher insurance premiums than for ice cars.
Minor accidents that effect the batteries are resulting in the car being scrapped because of the cost of replacement, in the case of Tesla £28k + and lower priced cars £15k+ add other costs such as specialist labour a high percentage are being scrapped even nearly new cars are deemed to be not as valuable as the repair because of the big valuation drop in second hand electric cars.
Another problem is the time scale of parts supply especially batteries being supplied to do the repairs and the specialist labour needed to do the repairs, you can't just go to the local repair shop.
Expect insurance premiums to rocket way above combustion and diesel cars.
I mentioned this issue previously. If the ICE ban continues and you end up writing off an ICE post 2030, the like for like EV replacement is likely to be much higher in price. Meaning much higher premiums.
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ncRover,
Those who do not charge at home will go to a charging station, in just the same way as an ICE driver goes to a filling station.
No-one would expect an ICE driver to have a petrol station at his/her house, would they?
These facilities will grow in proportion to demand, and there are already more charge points in the UK than petrol pumps.
Purchase prices will reduce as volume enters the market, and Chinese imports are pushing that reduction.
The cost will decline on the technology model, like computers did in the past.
Once purchase prices for similar spec models reach parity, the market will tip rapidly.
Manufacturers know this, hence the stampede to refurbish their production facilities to make EV rather than ICE.
Very difficult to say if used car prices will move in 2030, and which way.
What assumption do you make about availability of supplies, and the geopolitical situation?
No one would expect an ICE driver to take 30 mins *minimum* to fill up their car.
Because it takes 30 times longer I would certainly hope there are more charging points than petrol pumps already.
So based on the projections we’ve got 80,000 public charging points for 8 million or so electric cars. People without the capacity to charge at home will not fancy that.
You can’t beat that practicality or range (530 miles on my 8 year old diesel Skoda that takes a few minutes to fill up) that an ICE car offers at present. And the average person cannot afford a brand new car. For those reasons, it’s common sense to expect used prices to go up.
You make some good points about how the market can progress and I agree. So why the need to ban new ICE cars? Just leave the EV market to takeover naturally if it’s so good.
In terms of geopolitics I’d expect a few economies that aren’t pursuing net zero so quickly will overtake ours like Poland did recently. Because all of this is looking incredibly expensive.
Can you explain the governments reassurance that the wind and solar powered electricity grid will be able to cope with the demands in 2050. It says:
“Smart charging is an important part of this process. Smart charging technologies allow EV charging to take place when demand for electricity is lower. For example, at night or when there is lots of renewable energy on the grid.
This reduces electricity system costs, lowering prices for everyone. The motorist pays less for charging their EV and the electricity powering the EVs is greener.”
So if there’s a few days cloudy days with no wind you can’t charge your car?
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Hound,
Battery development is leading to higher energy density.
This means that you can have greater range from a given weight of battery, or reduce the battery weight for an equal performance.
The sweet spot is likely to be reducing overall weight while extending range to some extent.
Range is not really an issue any more for a modern EV.
The best way of increasing performance is by lightweighting the overall vehicle, but battery technology is moving fast;
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/catl-touts-breakthrough-cold-weather-ev-charging-2023-07-06/
Some of the silly myths posted on here are debunked here;
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/common-misconceptions-about-electric-vehicles/common-misconceptions-about-electric-vehicles
The battery weight/pothole cost thing I mentioned was just a thing I had heard a few days ago, I think it was on a tv news broadcast.
You make some good points of course and some of them may come to fruition.
I’m not so sure that people would want to drive to a charging station, leave the car for 30/60 minutes then go back to pick it up on a regular basis.
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Can you imagine it, orderly queues still waiting to charge their car at 2.00am with work next morning
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Can you imagine it, orderly queues still waiting to charge their car at 2.00am with work next morning
a whole new reason not to turn up for work.
power cut.
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Can you imagine it, orderly queues still waiting to charge their car at 2.00am with work next morning
a whole new reason not to turn up for work.
power cut.
Or just work from home. Difficult if you are a Postie or something, mind.
To answer ncRover's point about people with no off-street parking, local authorities have been looking at feasibility of strategically placed "park and charge" facilities. I did some work with a local authority in Somerset on mapping where to locate facilities for maximum coverage within 10 mins walk in areas with little off-Street parking. The number of properties the coverage maps identified was massive.
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Not sure if this has been posted...
https://futurism.com/the-byte/mitsubishi-dendo-drive-house-car-power
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Can you imagine it, orderly queues still waiting to charge their car at 2.00am with work next morning
a whole new reason not to turn up for work.
power cut.
Or just work from home. Difficult if you are a Postie or something, mind.
To answer ncRover's point about people with no off-street parking, local authorities have been looking at feasibility of strategically placed "park and charge" facilities. I did some work with a local authority in Somerset on mapping where to locate facilities for maximum coverage within 10 mins walk in areas with little off-Street parking. The number of properties the coverage maps identified was massive.
I can’t see that working with parents of young children, disabled and elderly.
I see new hybrid options banned from 2035 unless they can “drive a significant distance without carbon coming out the exhaust pipe”. Would these still need charging somewhat?
Any clarification on the smart charging to take the strain off the grid Albie? Sounds a bit worrying to me.
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ncRover,
Your post 268:
The reason 2030 was given is to meet the UK net zero pathway set in law.
The ban on new ICE sales is to reduce severe air pollution impacts from petrol/diesel, so avoiding health service costs, and to move the UK economy towards full electrification to meet climate change rules.
Electrification is needed as well because in terms of energy efficiency, an ICE car wastes 80% of the energy as heat...only 20% is useful to give propulsion.
"Because all of this is looking incredibly expensive".
No, the higher cost is in delay which prevents the market to mature.
Biden's Inflation Reduction Act, and Chinese expansion means the UK risks very heavy economic damage from delay that gives advantage to others.
Average purchase price is not really relevant, because most of the early models were high end like Tesla. The UK has new car models at £25k, but given the rapid market development a 2 year lease might be better for many.
"Just leave the EV market to takeover naturally if it’s so good".
In truth, it will all be over by 2030, as the reduction in EV costs will make them the rational choice on economic grounds.
Government know this, so only a few petrol heads will be left to moan.
"So if there’s a few days cloudy days with no wind you can’t charge your car?"
No-one is saying that.
Smart charging is where incentives are given to use the grid at times of low demand.
See the solar thread where there is discussion of the different tariffs on offer.
The fall in battery costs (around 18% per annum) means that energy storage costs will continue to fall. That means that excess production will be stockpiled against occasional lulls in supply due to windless days.
"Because it takes 30 times longer I would certainly hope there are more charging points than petrol pumps already."
See the Reuters link I posted above. If the frequency of charging is reduced, there is less pressure on the charging structure in place.
New regulations for chargers have just been introduced:
https://nitter.net/EVAEOfficial/status/1678794976086425601#m
National Grid do not share your concerns over these issues, they are considered resolved.
The issue the UK faces is transmission infrastructure updates need to be faster to meet the rising renewable supply.
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2030 set in law! Do you not think that whoever is in power will change that date to suit?
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Of course things can change, Raven, no-one said they can't.
If the 2030 date was pushed back, the UK would be behind and need to increase carbon savings in other areas to get back on track.
This is unlikely because the international consensus is pushing the other way.
Just my opinion!
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If the fossil fuels company press hard perhaps the ban on new build ICE will be pushed back too, ££££££s tend to have a big influence on political parties
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Great advert for electric vehicles currently on fire in a ship in the North Sea, and the second time transporting them by sea has caused a major incident at sea, the first ship sank and this one is in major trouble, lives already lost and the crew abandoned the ship.
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Aye.
Thank f**k no oil tanker has ever sank.
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"The ship’s owner said an electric car in the cargo was suspected as a possible cause for the blaze."
Easy to blame the cargo, rather than anything being wrong with his ship,
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I see Vauxhall (Stellantis) have released details of their long awaited electric Astra. That affordable staple family car that hundreds of thousands have owned over the years
Now, you can currently buy a brand new ICE Astra for around 25 grand.
The new electric one starts at 40 grand!! 40 f**kin grand !
You could buy a tesla for that.
Seriously though, We are running headlong into a situation where car ownership, for many, simply won’t be affordable.
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40 grand for a Vauxhall Astra, imagine that....
Who on earth is gonna pay that? Ridiculous.
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Putting my order in today for mine.
(not a Vauxhall Astra)
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So why would anyone buy this Astra when you can go for a BYD Dolphin at £26k;
https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1917/BYD-DOLPHIN-449-kWh-Active
Better still, consider leasing for 2 years!