An electric vehicle that looks like the future

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

AL they didn't for mine, but my house is setup with electric externally so easy to do (it goes direct to the fuse box point and earthed from there, mine is all in the garage with the point outside the garage).  So it depends how your electrics are set up.

[normal rules]

I drive up to Newcastle last weekend. Stopped off at wetherby services on the A1 so the dog could take a leak as well as myself. Took a walk around the car park. I reckon there must have been 350-400 parking places. And just 4 charging points. Yes, you read that right. 4. One of which was knackered. The other three were taken and while watching I saw two electric cars pull up only to realise they had to wait for one to become free, and then wait to charge theirs. So perhaps an hr or her and a half?
This is a pretty major stop off on the A1 for north and southbound traffic in this area.
If this is to work, every other space in that car park needs a plug in spot.

[Axholme Lion]

Despite the clock ticking down for the ban on ICE vehicles coming in i'm yet to see this massive roll out of charging points coming to fruition. I reckon the date will get knocked back due covid or Boris and Carrie getting the elbow.

[normal rules]

It has to. We are just not geared up for this. Yet.

[selby]

  The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.

[Axholme Lion]

  The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.

This is what i think too. I work in the trade and this is what we're waiting for. I wouldn't be spending my own money on an EV unless there was no other choice.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

They need to sort production issues out first though if it's ever going to happen.  Ordered mine in July last year still not expected until at least April this.

[Axholme Lion]

All new cars of all types are in very short supply.

[albie]

  The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.

Exactly the opposite of what is happening.
Most manufacturers have moved away from fuel cells as a primary technology for cars, only Toyota and Hyundai keep a vehicle on the market, at very low sales volumes.

VW set out the reasons for choosing batteries over hydrogen;
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/volkswagen-explains-why-batteries-not-fuel-cells-are-the-right-choice-for-passenger-cars/

Hydrogen from green sources has a role to play, but not in fuel for cars.
Lorries and rail have a better case.

[Axholme Lion]

  The write ups in magazines and by motoring correspondents seem to be edging more and more to the development of Hydrogen, and it seems to be getting a bigger toe hold in the rush for development route.

Exactly the opposite of what is happening.
Most manufacturers have moved away from fuel cells as a primary technology for cars, only Toyota and Hyundai keep a vehicle on the market, at very low sales volumes.

VW set out the reasons for choosing batteries over hydrogen;
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/volkswagen-explains-why-batteries-not-fuel-cells-are-the-right-choice-for-passenger-cars/

Hydrogen from green sources has a role to play, but not in fuel for cars.
Lorries and rail have a better case.

I think i would trust technology developed by Toyota rather than anything VW could come up with.

[selby]

  I wonder if VW batteries have the same fix on them as the emissions used to have?

[albie]

Axholme/Selby,

You are swimming against the tide here.
The year end sales data for 2021 shows where we are;
https://www.smmt.co.uk/2022/01/covid-stalls-2021-uk-new-car-market-but-record-ev-sales-show-future-direction/

By 2023 price parity will be reached when battery costs fall to $100 per KW.
Legacy vehicles will be more expensive as new purchases by then, and manufacturers still in this market will be left defending stranded assets in the new transport economy.

Diesel will soon be gone from new models, with petrol declining year on year.
Hydrogen is nowhere in this economy, because it is much more costly to develop, implement and use.

There is zero chance of H2 being a market leader for cars in the foreseeable future.

[Axholme Lion]

We've just replaced a 48V battery on a self charging hybrid. Ouch!

[selby]

  Albie, diesel was unknown when I was a kid for driving small cars and was the drive train of heavy goods vehicles and buses. as technical problems of size were overcome they eventually became the propulsion engine of the masses.
  Now two things, they can clean up existing technology (add blue), or the Hydrogen infrastructure will have to be put in to move heavy loads and the Danes are already experimenting with manufacturing Hydrogen with wind power at sea from sea water.
  Battery power is not exciting everybody, and big money is already looking at alternative's before batteries have got off the ground  and are gaining public sympathy as the cost of the green agenda is starting to be transferred to them.
   The economics of energy will determine the future power trains, the one thing that is for sure is to try and take the independence of personal transport from the masses will end up being the end of any government that tries it. 

[selby]

  Any political Party that puts in their next election manifesto we are not going green or woke get in.

[Axholme Lion]

  Any political Party that puts in their next election manifesto we are not going green or woke get in.

Dead right. The Tories need to get rid of BJ and worse still Nut Nut and her barmy ideas.
Labour need to bin off identity politics and allegiance to every lame duck cause of cranks they suck up to.
Anyone who wants to take cars away from the people want their head looking at.

[selby]

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133800_china-s-gac-announces-hydrogen-combustion-engine#
  For Albie

[albie]

Selby,

Your link just backs up what I am saying.

Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.

In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).

I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1

[Axholme Lion]

Selby,

Your link just backs up what I am saying.

Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.

In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).

I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1

Do we know how much it costs to charge an electric car with enough juice to drive say 350 miles (if that's possible)? I know some of the claimed EV ranges are quite optimistic.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Selby,

Your link just backs up what I am saying.

Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.

In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).

I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1

Do we know how much it costs to charge an electric car with enough juice to drive say 350 miles (if that's possible)? I know some of the claimed EV ranges are quite optimistic.

Depends on the price you pay. If you have an ev suitable tarrif it could be as low as £5-6.  On a normal tarrif like mine you're looking at around £20. I get 30 miles typically from a £1.50 charge.

[Metalmicky]

Selby,

Your link just backs up what I am saying.

Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.

In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).

I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1

Do we know how much it costs to charge an electric car with enough juice to drive say 350 miles (if that's possible)? I know some of the claimed EV ranges are quite optimistic.

Depends on the price you pay. If you have an ev suitable tarrif it could be as low as £5-6.  On a normal tarrif like mine you're looking at around £20. I get 30 miles typically from a £1.50 charge.

If you get 30 miles from a £1.50 charge, then 350 miles would actually cost you £17.50.......... I've just saved you £2.50 in a blink

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Selby,

Your link just backs up what I am saying.

Hydrogen is nowhere near production ready, and the green hydrogen supply chains are not in place.
At 44% efficiency, as the article claims, that is way below the efficiency levels from batteries, which is also rising year on year.

In terms of costs, hydrogen is MUCH more expensive than electricity at current prices, so the cost per km to users would be far higher, even if the refuelling infrastructure was in place (it is not, at the moment).

I think you are confusing long term research interest with near market production capability.
Even Toyota and Hyundai have moved into the electric vehicle space as a corporate priority;
https://www.ft.com/content/4e940aef-4513-462f-891b-2592d3e2ffc1

Do we know how much it costs to charge an electric car with enough juice to drive say 350 miles (if that's possible)? I know some of the claimed EV ranges are quite optimistic.

Depends on the price you pay. If you have an ev suitable tarrif it could be as low as £5-6.  On a normal tarrif like mine you're looking at around £20. I get 30 miles typically from a £1.50 charge.

If you get 30 miles from a £1.50 charge, then 350 miles would actually cost you £17.50.......... I've just saved you £2.50 in a blink

It would if your consumption was all level and equal but that's unlikely.  It much depends on if that's long or short journeys.  As with a petrol if you're doing more motorway driving it's less efficient. I assumed that the 350 miles would include that, my 30 usually doesn't as I'd drive it hybrid on a longer journey.

[Axholme Lion]

So even if hydrogen turns out to be more expensive than electric it could be the same or less than petrol for a fill up?
I'd rather pay more for the convenience of just being able to fill up. Maybe we'll end up with a mix of hydrogen and electric vehilces like we now have petrol and diesel?

[selby]

  Why have I got the feeling that electric vehicles will be charged twice, vat on their domestic bills and by the mile with the new tech that comes in on the speed limiter later this year.
  Then the difference in price of an electric vehicle, compared with a well maintained diesel vehicle, it must give you a good few years free motoring as the price difference will buy quite a bit of fuel,
 even if they make it more expensive.

[albie]

I don't understand what you are saying, Selby.

You will pay fuel duty on whatever power source you use, like you do on petrol/diesel today.
Why does VAT on domestic bills apply to using a fast charger at a charging station, over and above any duty levied at the application?

Clearly you have the option of installing home solar, so generating your own energy will not be VAT rated anyway.

The price parity point is thought to be 2023 or 2024....one/two years from now!
This is when the forecast battery cost falls to $100 per kw, meaning that EV will become cheaper than ICE  vehicles to buy.

You seem to think an EV will continue to cost more than an ICE vehicle.
No-one in the industry will agree with that going forwards.
Rather than purchase, I think the market will move towards leasing as a business model.

Anyone still relying on ICE sales after 2025 will not be around for long, something all the major manufacturers have understood.

Axholme asked about costs. Here is a guide;
https://insights.leaseplan.co.uk/electric-vehicles/ev-news/electric-vehicle-cost/

[Axholme Lion]

Not for me i think. I like to buy a car outright and keep it for a good few years. I don't like the idea of paying for something i will never own. To me PCP and leasing are just scams. I suppose if you feel the need for constantly updating your motor it's a good idea, but i don't. My Subaru has just had it's fifth year service and the garage told me it's like a brand new car, so it makes sense to me to keep it at no cost other than maintenance for a few years. i would probably get another petrol car just before the ban comes in and that should see me off. It must be more friendly to the environment to do this rather than getting a new car on a lease every three years.

[drfchound]

I also don’t fancy leasing a car.
I buy mine outright at the beginning and like to make the decision myself when to change it, usually about five or six years.

[Axholme Lion]

I also don’t fancy leasing a car.
I buy mine outright at the beginning and like to make the decision myself when to change it, usually about five or six years.

If you get a good 'un you might as well keep it. I'm told that the Subaru Boxer engine will easily do 250K miles with regular oil changes.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Not for me i think. I like to buy a car outright and keep it for a good few years. I don't like the idea of paying for something i will never own. To me PCP and leasing are just scams. I suppose if you feel the need for constantly updating your motor it's a good idea, but i don't. My Subaru has just had it's fifth year service and the garage told me it's like a brand new car, so it makes sense to me to keep it at no cost other than maintenance for a few years. i would probably get another petrol car just before the ban comes in and that should see me off. It must be more friendly to the environment to do this rather than getting a new car on a lease every three years.

Depends on the terms doesn't it?  I take my company car option as opposed to the money.  I wouldn't get much of a car for the amount I sacrifice and don't have to maintain it, insure it or tax it.  That works great for my main car, but I do own my other car outright, I think that's a good balance.

[Axholme Lion]

Not for me i think. I like to buy a car outright and keep it for a good few years. I don't like the idea of paying for something i will never own. To me PCP and leasing are just scams. I suppose if you feel the need for constantly updating your motor it's a good idea, but i don't. My Subaru has just had it's fifth year service and the garage told me it's like a brand new car, so it makes sense to me to keep it at no cost other than maintenance for a few years. i would probably get another petrol car just before the ban comes in and that should see me off. It must be more friendly to the environment to do this rather than getting a new car on a lease every three years.

Depends on the terms doesn't it?  I take my company car option as opposed to the money.  I wouldn't get much of a car for the amount I sacrifice and don't have to maintain it, insure it or tax it.  That works great for my main car, but I do own my other car outright, I think that's a good balance.

Best of both worlds then?