Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on June 09, 2023, 07:14:52 pm
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...still execute agents of hostile countries?
https://twitter.com/abbydphillip/status/1667228188248776718?s=20
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This is beyond words
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65852074
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Trump was clearly short of toilet paper due to the lockdown and had to use ‘something!”
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Trump back in the Whitehouse 2024?
Could it happen, it’s America so….you betcha.
It’s like watching a s**t America soap where you don’t want to tune in anymore because it’s regurgitated c**p & yet, you suspect there may be a twist in a tawdry script that makes you sit up in the penultimate scene & say “What!, no way!”.
It’s ‘pure’ Hollywood & Putin would be the first to own the first box set!
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I can't believe a single word the bloke says , and his drawling , crawling , moaning method of delivering his speeches is so irritating
Amazing to think he could go to Prison , still run for President AND win AND then pardon himself
Bet 40% of the Electorate believe what he is telling them
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Trump said he could shoot a guy on central avenue and not lose any poll numbers. I suspect we'll get as close to finding out whether that's true soon.
Trump will be the republican nomination. DeSantis is a socially awkward weirdo. He's every bit as unhinged as Trump, but he can string a sentence together, which oddly works against him next to Trump's freewheeling nonsense.
This republican nomination race is going to be extremely funny I can guarantee you that. Politics as booked by the WWE.
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He won’t win an election. It’s impossible. The man is horrific isn’t he.
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Trump said he could shoot a guy on central avenue and not lose any poll numbers. I suspect we'll get as close to finding out whether that's true soon.
Trump will be the republican nomination. DeSantis is a socially awkward weirdo. He's every bit as unhinged as Trump, but he can string a sentence together, which oddly works against him next to Trump's freewheeling nonsense.
This republican nomination race is going to be extremely funny I can guarantee you that. Politics as booked by the WWE.
Frighteningly funny.
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I disagree, it is entirely possible. Don't underestimate just how right wing leaning a lot of Americans are. Even the democrats are arguably further right than our UK government.
Trump's almost a cult, despite losing, he didn't really lose by much did he? Very dangerous if he gets away with doing whatever he likes and not all western values.
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Trump absolutely has a very good chance of beating Biden.
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Americans have a choice between ventriloquist’s dummy or a game show host as ‘Leader of the Free World’.
Gawd help us.
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Don't slag them, look at the choices we have!
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Don't slag them, look at the choices we have!
Dead right, Raven. A multi-billionaire totally out of touch with ordinary people, and a guy who changes his mind as often as his underpants.
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Don't forget the multi-millionaire who changes his mind as often as his underpants is also totally out of touch with reality, as well as ordinary people.
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I hate to break into this "all the same" love in, but have you noticed what this current utterly useless President has done with the US economy?
Or how he's facing down Putin, while Trump cowered and cringed round him?
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Biden really shouldn’t be doing this at his age. Is he going to run again?
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1669841532700983299?s=46&t=Uj9lS9cW2ksdznjWwHqrkQ
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I hate to break into this "all the same" love in, but have you noticed what this current utterly useless President has done with the US economy?
Or how he's facing down Putin, while Trump cowered and cringed round him?
Would make very interesting questions for the pollsters,
Do you consider yourself and the world are in a safer and better place now than prior to the geriatric taking power?
Do you consider yourself better or worse off financially since the big spender took office?
Do you think Bidons next stage presentation is going to end with him frothing at the mouth whilst his secret service bods drag him off stage cackling like an hyena?
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Another month, another set of criminal indictments against Trump.
If he wins next year and absolves himself of any prosecutions, that's American democracy funked for the foreseeable future.
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Trump absolutely has a very good chance of beating Biden.
Not according to the current polls and being dragged through court several times before the election can't do him any good.
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The people who have undermined the democratic Brexit vote in this country both high and low such as Starmer and labour MP.s and the speaker in the house Bercow and some on here have stoked up and kept up their undermining of that democratic vote which is largely no different from what Trump has done since being voted out of office, while the same people deplore Trump and condemn him.
Some on here want to look at themselves and their posts over that period and take a moment to think.
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Oh here he comes.
Let's draw an equivalence between a man who organised an attempted couple by an armed mob and a man who asked for a vote.
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You and I who voted to stay in had our vote and we lost, I accepted the democratic vote, you didn't, and still don't, it's as simple as that.
And you are still harping on about it to this day, full of self importance.
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I think that the biggest gripe about Brexit is the deal that we ended up with. The hard Brexit that we ended up with was nothing like the one talked about during the campaign.
It's a bit like going into hospital with a sceptic toe and being told yes we can cure it to find on waking up that they have amputated your leg to the knee.
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And the situation that finally emerged in 2019, after the process had been hijacked by the far rightvwas not like anything that had been discussed in 2016. Even after signing the deal, Johnson was still lying about what it contained. That was what justified the call for a confirmatory vote. To ask the British people if that wad what they wanted.
Comparing that to a violent insurrection in which people died and senior politicians' lives were at risk is stupid.
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I think that the biggest gripe about Brexit is the deal that we ended up with. The hard Brexit that we ended up with was nothing like the one talked about during the campaign.
It's a bit like going into hospital with a sceptic toe and being told yes we can cure it to find on waking up that they have amputated your leg to the knee.
With all the accusations of lies being poured out in order to swing votes in favour of Brexit, anyone would think there were no lies from the Remain side!
It's as though lying about manifestoes is a new thing! For heaven's sake, there are examples on this very forum where people want The Labour Party to lie its way into power with more right-wing proposals, with the intention of conning voters by turning to Left-wing proposals once they get into power!
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Trump absolutely has a very good chance of beating Biden.
Not according to the current polls and being dragged through court several times before the election can't do him any good.
Won't affect him as much as it would a 'normal' candidate. His defence is rock solid and built in. Deep state! Radical left Marxist Democrats trying to overthrow democracy! I actually won the election and everyone knows it!
Trump being charged with crimes isn't going to change anyone's mind about him. Everyone knew what he was like the first time, didn't stop him getting voted in then.
Apathy stemming from Biden's general lack of achievement - albeit where his hands are tied to some extent by the Supreme Court weighting - could very easily swing it.
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MM
That "Biden lack of achievement" line is one I hear regularly from the left.
I've absolutely no idea what it is based on.
America has booming GDP, it has ridden the inflation wave and got it back down to 3%. Unemployment hasn't been lower since the days of Neil Armstrong and Vietnam and real wages are rising.
What exactly does achievement look like if this is an absence of it?
But I agree that America is in a very bad place. There's a baked in 40% who will refuse to believe anything bad about Trump. Not fraud. Not stealing Top Secret documents and piling them up in his gold plated shitter. Not organising an attempted coup.
It's the consequence of 3 decades of the far right of the Republican party abusing the whole concept of Objective Truth. I honestly don't know how America gets out of this. Either they end up with a would be insurrectionist in the WH in 18 months. Or he ends up in prison. Or he ends up whipping his followers up to a bigger frenzy, claiming the court action cost him the Presidency.
The first one is the de facto end of US democracy. The other two are likely to lead to social unrest on a scale they've never seen before.
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Trump absolutely has a very good chance of beating Biden.
Not according to the current polls and being dragged through court several times before the election can't do him any good.
Won't affect him as much as it would a 'normal' candidate. His defence is rock solid and built in. Deep state! Radical left Marxist Democrats trying to overthrow democracy! I actually won the election and everyone knows it!
Trump being charged with crimes isn't going to change anyone's mind about him. Everyone knew what he was like the first time, didn't stop him getting voted in then.
Apathy stemming from Biden's general lack of achievement - albeit where his hands are tied to some extent by the Supreme Court weighting - could very easily swing it.
No they didn't. People thought he'd do what he said he was going to do. The thing is, he didn't, except cut taxes for the mega-wealthy. Because of that people now know that he's full of shit due his record this time around, which is why he won't win.
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I think that the biggest gripe about Brexit is the deal that we ended up with. The hard Brexit that we ended up with was nothing like the one talked about during the campaign.
It's a bit like going into hospital with a sceptic toe and being told yes we can cure it to find on waking up that they have amputated your leg to the knee.
Post of the century.!!
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The Remoaners were griping about Brexit the minute the result was announced and before any deal was struck, good or bad. The truth is, there would never be a good deal no matter what deal was struck in the eyes of the Remoaners.
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Another thread in danger of vanishing down the rabbit hole dug by a couple of Brexit obsessives.
Anyway, back to what we were talking about before they waded in.
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1686813844469858319
This is what I meant about Republicans being in longer term denial on the issue of objective truth. Its really quite shocking. And it led directly to many more Republicans than Democrats dying of COVID. Egged on by the Trumpian cohort of Republican leaders who actively encouraged their supporters to due because the alternative would have been to give up on their Culture War and talk f**king sense.
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Another thread in danger of vanishing down the rabbit hole dug by a couple of Brexit obsessives.
Brexit obsessives?
Oh, dear.
Oh dear oh dear.
Oh dear, oh dear oh dear.
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BB, what have I told you about responding to wind ups.
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I know mate. I really should rise above it.
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The Remoaners were griping about Brexit the minute the result was announced and before any deal was struck, good or bad. The truth is, there would never be a good deal no matter what deal was struck in the eyes of the Remoaners.
Farage said the fight would go on if he lost the Brexit vote so the same can be said of both sides BB.
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What's up BB?
Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America, threatening to kill the Vice President for doing his constitutional duty?
Me, I'm happy to talk facts about Brexit in any discussion that's about Brexit. I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.
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What's up BB?
Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America, threatening to kill the Vice President for doing his constitutional duty?
Me, I'm happy to talk facts about Brexit in any discussion that's about Brexit. I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.
I didn't!
Oh, there I go again. I'll try harder, Hound!
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The Remoaners were griping about Brexit the minute the result was announced and before any deal was struck, good or bad. The truth is, there would never be a good deal no matter what deal was struck in the eyes of the Remoaners.
Farage said the fight would go on if he lost the Brexit vote so the same can be said of both sides BB.
Idler, it is totally democratic to fight for a cause that you firmly believe in, but how can democracy work if after every vote the losers claim it is their democratic right to overrule it and demand a re-vote?
Farage stated his intent to fight against EU membership had he lost, but if he had lost, the default position of the UK being a member of the EU would not have changed. Things would have carried on as normal, meaning the remain voters would have democratically got their wish instantly.
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Farage would have been going against a democratic vote as well though. The vote was too close to warrant the disparity between the Brexit agreement campaigned on and the one we ended up with.
There were enough leavers that would have rejected the hard final outcome to have swung the vote the other way. That is what has left a bitter taste in mouths of many leave voters. A Norway type deal would have been acceptable to most leavers.
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Pence has mostly kept his mouth shut since the coup attempt.
Not any more. He's giving Trump both barrels now.
https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1686819913833267227
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What's up BB?
Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America, threatening to kill the Vice President for doing his constitutional duty?
Me, I'm happy to talk facts about Brexit in any discussion that's about Brexit. I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.
I didn't!
Oh, there I go again. I'll try harder, Hound!
No, I guess it's too much to expect you hmto have any sense of self awareness.
In a thread about THE most momentous events in Western democracy since the War, you don't give a single comment on the actual theme. You slag off Starmer, the Labour Party and Remoaners.
Because, as ever, you have nothing to offer to any sensible conversation.
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I think you'll find one or two people posted about Brexit on this thread before me, YOU being one of 'em!
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Farage would have been going against a democratic vote as well though. The vote was too close to warrant the disparity between the Brexit agreement campaigned on and the one we ended up with.
There were enough leavers that would have rejected the hard final outcome to have swung the vote the other way. That is what has left a bitter taste in mouths of many leave voters. A Norway type deal would have been acceptable to most leavers.
No one expected Farage to change his views and become a staunch Remainer had the vote gone against his wishes, but if he had demanded an immediate re-vote in the hope of reversing the outcome he would have been as undemocratic as the Remoaners were/are, and those very same undemocratic people would be condemning him for being undemocratic!
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Back to the topic of the thread,Bill Barr has no stuck the boot in.
Trump's defence is looking more and more fragile.
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I think you'll find one or two people posted about Brexit on this thread before me, YOU being one of 'em!
As you know full well, I responded to show how utterly stupid the comparison is.
You then piled in to give your two pennorth on Remoaners, with no reference whatsoever to the theme of the thread.
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Back to the topic of the thread,Bill Barr has no stuck the boot in.
Trump's defence is looking more and more fragile.
Rats are jumping off the ship because they know they are facing 20 years if they are found to have supported the conspiracy.
I bet Giuliani is sweating more than usual.
https://youtu.be/_2r2msBEiXI
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It would appear that Trump could still run a campaign for election whilst behind bars. It was done in the 1920's apparantly
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What's up BB?
Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America
Just remind me who, only last week, was irredeemably stupid enough to bring their personal view on Brexit into a discussion about climate change - one of the most serious issues threatening mankind.
"I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit."
Unbelievable lack of self awareness! And unbelievably ironic.
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You've just done the same yourself!
More irony I suppose
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I think you'll find one or two people posted about Brexit on this thread before me, YOU being one of 'em!
As you know full well, I responded to show how utterly stupid the comparison is.
You then piled in to give your two pennorth on Remoaners, with no reference whatsoever to the theme of the thread.
I don't think the comparison is stupid if you compare the attitudes of Trump supporters and Remoaners who wanted a Democratic vote overturned.
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What's up BB?
Have you had a moment of self awareness of how irredeemable stupid it is to bring Brexit into a discussion about a man who enabled a violent mob to storm the centre of Government in America
Just remind me who, only last week, was irredeemably stupid enough to bring their personal view on Brexit into a discussion about climate change - one of the most serious issues threatening mankind.
"I just don't understand people who have to bring it up in every discussion. Like they have no intellectual anchor bar Brexit, Brexit, Brexit."
Unbelievable lack of self awareness! And unbelievably ironic.
Go on. I'll humour you. Do you want to point out where I brought up Brexit in the context of climate change in a way that wasn't central to the point at hand?
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I think you'll find one or two people posted about Brexit on this thread before me, YOU being one of 'em!
As you know full well, I responded to show how utterly stupid the comparison is.
You then piled in to give your two pennorth on Remoaners, with no reference whatsoever to the theme of the thread.
I don't think the comparison is stupid if you compare the attitudes of Trump supporters and Remoaners who wanted a Democratic vote overturned.
Let me get this right.
You don't think there's anything stupid about comparing
1) The encouraging of a violent insurrection in which several people died and the Vice President's life was put in danger.
And
2) People asking for a vote to see if a policy they'd never been asked their opinion on was actually what they wanted.
Is that what you're saying? Because that what it sounds like. And how stupid would that be?
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Watch my lips. I don't think the comparison is stupid if you compare the attitudes of Trump supporters and Remoaners who wanted a Democratic vote overturned.
The USA may be further down the road of anti-democratic behaviour as witnessed by the post-election rioting, but such actions could well soon occur in the UK if we allow democratic votes to be overruled by bad losers.
We could very easily have allowed that to happen by cancelling the Brexit result and holding another referendum.
Shame on those who wanted one, that's what I say.
That is the comparison.
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Yes, I know what you are saying. You think it's suitable to draw a comparison between a violent attempted coup and a call for a free vote. I get that that's what you mean.
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15 years ago......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIjenjANqAk
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Just a thought.
If by some remote chance the Tories win the next GE would it be appropriate for Labour supporters to request another election?
The same could be applied to the reverse situation of course, just for balance.
Is it any different to requesting a revote in the Brexit situation?
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Confusing threads again.
Dear me.
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15 years ago......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIjenjANqAk
Different world.
The moderates have been purged from what used to be centre-right parties in both the USA and UK.
McCain was a thoroughly decent and honorable man.
There us not a chance in a million of someone like him being chosen as the Republican candidate by the current party.
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15 years ago......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIjenjANqAk
Different world.
The moderates have been purged from what used to be centre-right parties in both the USA and UK.
McCain was a thoroughly decent and honorable man.
There us not a chance in a million of someone like him being chosen as the Republican candidate by the current party.
I agree on the USA but not on the UK .......yet.
I disagree with their take on economics but both Sunak and Hunt are moderates.
The danger comes after the next GE - which is why those slavering for a Tory annihilation should be careful what they wish for.
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Sunak is way further to the right than any PM between 1945 and 2019. No Tory PM of the second half of the 20th century would have campaigned on the Culture War theme that Sunak is going to do. It's a lesson the Tories are learning from the Republicans.
Hunt is a moderate only in the context of the current Tory Overton Window. 15 years ago he was campaigning for the NHS to be privatised. 11 years ago he was leaning over backwards to help Murdoch buy a full stake in Sky. He looks moderate now because of the way that parry has lurched way to the right of him.
There was a mass clearance of genuinely moderate centrist Tories before the last election. You're not going to see another Ken Clarke on the Tory benches in your lifetime.
The key thing (applying on both sides of the Atlantic) is that the Right doesn't have any guiding economic philosophy that works. Culture War is all they have. Trump sensed that a decade ago and went all in on it. He's convinced 40% of the population that the other side is genuinely conspiring to screw them down.
I agree that the danger comes after the next election when they are wiped out and the fighting over who can best capture the far right begins.
But I'm hopeful that we are better than that in the UK. Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't see a Braverman led English National Party picking up more than 25% of the vote here.
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I disagree that Sunak is to the right of Thatcher.
I think you are being naive.
Not in normal economic circumstances (remember those?!)
But if a major economic downturn were to occur - almost certainly due to global events as is usually the case - with a far right Tory party in opposition..........
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
Irony alert GG
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
Irony alert GG
Now I have your attention again how about naming those racists you were on about a few days ago.
I bet you won’t.
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
Irony alert GG
Now I have your attention again how about naming those racists you were on about a few days ago.
I bet you won’t.
You don't have my attention. You haven't for over 40 years. You keep chucking grenades.
Maybe one won't land somewhere cerca 1915 in no man's land.
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Anything to say about the topic?
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
Irony alert GG
Now I have your attention again how about naming those racists you were on about a few days ago.
I bet you won’t.
You don't have my attention. You haven't for over 40 years. You keep chucking grenades.
Maybe one won't land somewhere cerca 1915 in no man's land.
Now that is funny.
I don’t have your attention and yet you jump on sooooo many of my posts.
Don’t talk daft lad.
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I'm a sad man,remoaner,woke,snowflake etc.
You've nailed me with your acerbic tongue.
You must have been a big hit with the ladies with that tongue.
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I'm a sad man,remoaner,woke,snowflake etc.
You've nailed me with your acerbic tongue.
You must have been a big hit with the ladies with that tongue.
I have called you a sad man, because you are.
I haven’t used any of the others that you quote.
By the way, I voted remain.
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As I dont come on here that much I tend to look at the last page of a topic first to see if it is worth reading from the beginning to catch up.
Think I will be passing on this one.
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I'm a sad man,remoaner,woke,snowflake etc.
You've nailed me with your acerbic tongue.
You must have been a big hit with the ladies with that tongue.
I have called you a sad man, because you are.
I haven’t used any of the others that you quote.
By the way, I voted remain.
I'm a sad man,,because you say I am.
Now imagine if I was a sad man suffering deprssion.
That truly is a great put down.
I'm in a far better position to call you a ginger haired CF from Pompey.
Can we just keep the debate to Donald Trump,rather than resorting to personal insults?
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Yeah, that’s fine by me, but who are those racists, you didn’t say.
You should be able to back it up when you make comments like that.
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
Altering other people's quotes? Wow.
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
Altering other people's quotes? Wow (pretending to be shocked and appalled)
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
Altering other people's quotes? Wow (pretending to be shocked and appalled)
If you don't know the history, keep your comments to yourself.
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If you don’t want comments, don’t post on an open forum.
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Every single thread...
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It’s how the forum has been for a long time, Billy. Almost every regular poster is guilty of it.
It’s a shame, but this is how it is.
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The problem with this forum is it is a closed shop consisting of a leader and his disciples. Anyone with an alternative view is accused of ruining the thread, but what really ruins it is the inevitable intervention of his disciples all eager to show their undying support for their leader.
Maybe the best thing is to give them their wish and leave them to their love-in.
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BB,despite your numerous,daily attempts,that's the first post of yours I've found funny.
Disciples etc,closed shop etc.
I'm going to be a rich man on this bingo lark, I've bagged a line again!
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BB,despite your numerous,daily attempts,that's the first post of yours I've found funny.
Disciples etc,closed shop etc.
I'm going to be a rich man on this bingo lark, I've bagged a line again!
Along with the hook and sinker.
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If all you've got is a little, wrinkled old maggot,you might as well go fishing
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Leave Mrs Belton’s opinion out of this.
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The problem with this forum is it is a closed shop consisting of a leader and his disciples. Anyone with an alternative view is accused of ruining the thread, but what really ruins it is the inevitable intervention of his disciples all eager to show their undying support for their leader.
Maybe the best thing is to give them their wish and leave them to their love-in.
The guardian isn’t always a reference to a newspaper on this forum.
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BST Confusing threads again ?
Dear me.
:thumbsup:
Altering other people's quotes? Wow.
I learned from the master.
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In an effort to get back to a very important topic, and given today's events:
1) Trump claims he is under political persecution and is the victim of a politically motivated charge
2) Navalny has just been sentenced to a further 19 years in prison in Russia
Will some journalist please please ask Trump to denounce this political persecution perpetrated by his friend Putin
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I dont think Trump is any friend of Putin, just that Trump is easy to play for Putin. The Republicans strangely struggle.
Interesting the difference in how Navalny is treated, and then over here we have the treatment that was dished out to, for example, Corbyn. Same issues, same effect, just a different style.
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I dont think Trump is any friend of Putin, just that Trump is easy to play for Putin. The Republicans strangely struggle.
Interesting the difference in how Navalny is treated, and then over here we have the treatment that was dished out to, for example, Corbyn. Same issues, same effect, just a different style.
Yeah Corbyn was poisoned, arrested and thrown in jail on trumped up charges eh?
Your statements get madder by the posts
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My point was simply that the question would be a real problem for Trump. He can't (and never has) spoken out against Putin, and if he didn't he would be saying political persecution through the justice system is OK. My use of 'friend' should really have been in inverted commas.
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Doesn't Putin have something on him since he judged Miss Universe in Moscow, probably something planted in his hotel room, either a camera or microphone, just rumours and accounts for the lack of criticism
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Doesn't Putin have something on him since he judged Miss Universe in Moscow, probably something planted in his hotel room, either a camera or microphone, just rumours and accounts for the lack of criticism
That might just be part of it. I think there may well have been financial aspects as well. The Steele dossier had a lot if things in it. I think some of Trump's debts were covered by a Russian bank. Either way Trump does not want to annoy Putin.
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The word from ex-KGB officers is that they targeted Trump from the 1980s as someone who might be a useful asset.
It's not always money that's necessary. The story is that they identified him as someone who could become a prominent figure, but who was intellectually weak and emotionally immature. So they played on his narcissistic side. Told him how impressed they were with his intellect and strategic thinking. Told him he was the sort of person that America needed. Maybe even at the higher levels of politics one day.
It makes sense as a story. Trump has made money (maybe, maybe not) but he never had respect from the top of American society. He was belittled. Made fun of. Maybe there's a part of him that's still the little boy who was never loved by his father. And he found respect from the Russians. And he clings to that.
Either that or maybe they just have a video of him being w**ked off by someone with a Putin face mask on.
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I dont think Trump is any friend of Putin, just that Trump is easy to play for Putin. The Republicans strangely struggle.
Interesting the difference in how Navalny is treated, and then over here we have the treatment that was dished out to, for example, Corbyn. Same issues, same effect, just a different style.
Yeah Corbyn was poisoned, arrested and thrown in jail on trumped up charges eh?
Your statements get madder by the posts
I covered that. My point was on the effect of power elites, not their means.
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Trump, the man who facilitated an armed attack on Congress and who is now facing three criminal trial said last night on social media "IF YOU COME AFTER ME, I'M COMING AFTER YOU".
Seems like a clear case of witness intimidation to add to the list.
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...and contempt of court.
https://twitter.com/jamiedupree/status/1688221018693742593
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Surely if he has committed contempt of court he will suffer the penalty for that offence.
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Well this explains a lot about why Trump is so popular. Many if his supporters don't trust those closest to them to be honest with them.
https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1693267774313759209
It's a truly dystopian nightmare. People used to living around liars giving a pass to the greatest liar in American political history.
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(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/bd03a9d3c6204fdc9d1136ac95cacad8ee41af2d/0_0_2700_2700/master/2700.jpg?width=620&dpr=1&s=none)
A historic image.
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What a d!ck!!
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Self declared his weight as 215lbs (just over 15 stone) might start self declaring my weight as 9 stone now!
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What was his hair description? Natural,full headed?
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What was his hair description? Natural,full headed?
Nicked from Twitter or X if you like
Donald Trump self-declares his weight as 215lbs, his height as 6 foot 3…and his hair as bountiful/plentiful…
I’d have put his hair down as a comb over myself
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(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/bd03a9d3c6204fdc9d1136ac95cacad8ee41af2d/0_0_2700_2700/master/2700.jpg?width=620&dpr=1&s=none)
A historic image.
Truly is a historic image. The US President who tried to overthrow US democracy. One that will be in the history books in 500 years.
I wonder how things might have panned out differently if his dad had told him he loved him? Or just not been a Kitson.
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Trump is already using the mugshot as the central image of his campaign. You can already buy it on a t-shirt.
Bizarre timeline where he wins the nomination at a canter despite having all this hanging over him. And he will. Then America has a real problem to sort out.
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It was inevitable that it'd come to this.
Influential people in the Republicans m, like Newt Gingrich, realised in the 90s that the tide of history was moving against them. The Reagan Revolution had done what the Republicans wanted - massively tipped the balance of wealth away from ordinary people and towards the rich. That's a stone cold fact.
But how do you keep on having a chance to win elections when you are sitting on the economic prospects of millions of people whose votes you need?
Gingrich and others were up front about it. They couldn't win if the battle was based on established facts. They realised that the Republicans' only chance was Culture War. Tell a consistent story to people who are working hard and getting no better off: it's obvious who the problem us - liberal city dwellers: college graduates: people who refuse God's Will like gays and single mothers and abortionists: moochers who stay in bed and get benefits: and many of them are blacks and the f**king libs won't even let you call a black what your grandpappy used to call them.
Consistent line for years from shock jocks and Fox News.
And you end up with a criminal and insurrectionist putting himself up as the victim of The Elite - and 40% of the population agree with him.
And you’ve now got Ramaswamy going on stage at events shouting at people "You know who's to blame for 6th Jan? The Government who imposed lockdowns. The "protest" was just a reaction to that."
And that's where the Republicans are. Dominated by a criminal monster. The future belonging to a chancer who justifies an attempted coup and vilifies Government that took drastic action to save maybe a million lives.
At best, it's going to be a 50 year job to drain the infection out of the right of American politics. Let demographics do the job as the population becomes more urban, less white and more educated.
But that's the best case. The worst is that Trump comes rolling back in seething with vengeance and we see a true collapse into American Facism.
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Largely agree with that, BST. Fascists are already at the door, radicalised through years of Murdoch bullshit and online subcultures. The only question is, are Americans going to let them in to run the government or are they going to be repelled violently. Those are the only 2 options. One way or another there's going to be violence before this election cycle is over, unfortunately.
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At best, it's going to be a 50 year job to drain the infection out of the right of American politics. Let demographics do the job as the population becomes more urban, less white and more educated.
This sums up the the intellectual vacuum of the "intellectual" Left (I use the quotation marks advisedly) on their approach to dealing with Trump.
People are not stupid.
People are certainly not irredeemably stupid. Whether because of how poor they are, how educated they are, where they're from or the colour of their skin. To think such a thing is abhorrent.
People can be persuaded to think stupidly and make stupid decisions. Playing on people's emotions is a big influence in this process.
The Democrats/political Left en masse continue to play into Trump's hands.
The Lefts strategy on Trump is: He's an idiot; You're all idiots for voting for him; Please vote differently next time idiots; and then to complain uncomprehendingly that these "idiots" are still not voting for them!
How about instead: Putting up a credible (even coherent) candidate; Putting out a positive message of hope on how to improve people's lives; attacking the Republicans on policy and past performance rather than on personality.
Play the Ball not the Man. Doing the latter is continually playing into Trump's hands.
The way to drain the infection out of the right of American politics is to defeat it time and again at the ballot box
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BR people only think like that because of the woke,virtue signallers at the BBC ramming it down our throats.
Oh,sorry,I've confused that with the Women's World Cup.
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BR people only think like that because of the woke,virtue signallers at the BBC ramming it down our throats.
Oh,sorry,I've confused that with the Women's World Cup.
I wanted them to win. However delighted it’s not going to be wall to wall flag for waving coverage from virtue signallers. I hate it how they ram their woke agenda down our throats.
Wondered what on Earth you were referring to there Iberian.
A case of mistaken identity - a different Branton R.
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BR
Have you looked at:
a) What's actually going on in the US economy at the moment?
b) How the US right wing media, led by Fox, are presenting it
b) What Republican supporters think is happenening in the US economy according to opinion polls.
Go and do some digging into it. Then come back and tell me what the Democrats are supposed to do.
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BR people only think like that because of the woke,virtue signallers at the BBC ramming it down our throats.
Oh,sorry,I've confused that with the Women's World Cup.
I wanted them to win. However delighted it’s not going to be wall to wall flag for waving coverage from virtue signallers. I hate it how they ram their woke agenda down our throats.
Wondered what on Earth you were referring to there Iberian.
A case of mistaken identity - a different Branton R.
My apologies! I presumed it was the same one!
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While you're at it, tell me how the Democrats are supposed to reach out to the 87% of Republican supporters in a recent poll who said that Trump shouldn't be prosecuted for inciting an attempted coup.
You don't defeat ignorance and collective insanity by meeting it halfway.
As I said in my original post on this theme, the current state of the Republican party base is the consequence of a deliberate policy of weaning them off truth for decades. Look at how few of them trust the scientific method. Look at how many of them believe the literal truth of Genesis over evolution. There's no way to win those people back without losing the very battle you need to win.
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At best, it's going to be a 50 year job to drain the infection out of the right of American politics. Let demographics do the job as the population becomes more urban, less white and more educated.
This sums up the the intellectual vacuum of the "intellectual" Left (I use the quotation marks advisedly) on their approach to dealing with Trump.
People are not stupid.
People are certainly not irredeemably stupid. Whether because of how poor they are, how educated they are, where they're from or the colour of their skin. To think such a thing is abhorrent.
People can be persuaded to think stupidly and make stupid decisions. Playing on people's emotions is a big influence in this process.
The Democrats/political Left en masse continue to play into Trump's hands.
The Lefts strategy on Trump is: He's an idiot; You're all idiots for voting for him; Please vote differently next time idiots; and then to complain uncomprehendingly that these "idiots" are still not voting for them!
How about instead: Putting up a credible (even coherent) candidate; Putting out a positive message of hope on how to improve people's lives; attacking the Republicans on policy and past performance rather than on personality.
Play the Ball not the Man. Doing the latter is continually playing into Trump's hands.
The way to drain the infection out of the right of American politics is to defeat it time and again at the ballot box
You'd of thought the "intellectual left" both in the states and our motley representation this side of the pond would of learnt from last time that their constant goading of the Republicans and Trump in particular did them absolutely no favours at all.
This has leanings towards the lefts campaign during the Brexit referendum, talking down to a stubborn electorate has never worked yet.
Do you think they will get the message this time, i very much doubt it and consequently play right into the hands of dangerous people like this man.
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Just stop and think what DD and BR are saying here.
"Yes, of course Trump is a criminal and a would-be insurrectionist but its the fault of people on the Left that people on the Right adore him."
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Oh yeah. "And the people on the Right aren't stupid..."
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BR people only think like that because of the woke,virtue signallers at the BBC ramming it down our throats.
Oh,sorry,I've confused that with the Women's World Cup.
I wanted them to win. However delighted it’s not going to be wall to wall flag for waving coverage from virtue signallers. I hate it how they ram their woke agenda down our throats.
Wondered what on Earth you were referring to there Iberian.
A case of mistaken identity - a different Branton R.
My apologies! I presumed it was the same one!
No problem mate
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Just stop and think what DD and BR are saying here.
"Yes, of course Trump is a criminal and a would-be insurrectionist but its the fault of people on the Left that people on the Right adore him."
So, like usual the left paraphrasing what someone has said with their own version of what they would like it to be.
And as usual BST you get it wrong again,
Nothing changes, and you wonder why the populace can't abide the left's attitudes to everything and everyone.
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DD
Tell me how I'm supposed to interpret this other than how I did.
"Do you think they will get the message this time, i very much doubt it and consequently play right into the hands of dangerous people like this man."
You have a situation where 87% of Republican voters think Trump shouldn't be prosecuted for attempting to overthrow democracy.
How is the Left supposed to reach out to those people? Tell them "yes, we hear you and we respect your opinions and we will accommodate them in our policy on the protection of democracy"?
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At best, it's going to be a 50 year job to drain the infection out of the right of American politics. Let demographics do the job as the population becomes more urban, less white and more educated.
This sums up the the intellectual vacuum of the "intellectual" Left (I use the quotation marks advisedly) on their approach to dealing with Trump.
People are not stupid.
People are certainly not irredeemably stupid. Whether because of how poor they are, how educated they are, where they're from or the colour of their skin. To think such a thing is abhorrent.
People can be persuaded to think stupidly and make stupid decisions. Playing on people's emotions is a big influence in this process.
The Democrats/political Left en masse continue to play into Trump's hands.
The Lefts strategy on Trump is: He's an idiot; You're all idiots for voting for him; Please vote differently next time idiots; and then to complain uncomprehendingly that these "idiots" are still not voting for them!
How about instead: Putting up a credible (even coherent) candidate; Putting out a positive message of hope on how to improve people's lives; attacking the Republicans on policy and past performance rather than on personality.
Play the Ball not the Man. Doing the latter is continually playing into Trump's hands.
The way to drain the infection out of the right of American politics is to defeat it time and again at the ballot box
You'd of thought the "intellectual left" both in the states and our motley representation this side of the pond would of learnt from last time that their constant goading of the Republicans and Trump in particular did them absolutely no favours at all.
This has leanings towards the lefts campaign during the Brexit referendum, talking down to a stubborn electorate has never worked yet.
Do you think they will get the message this time, i very much doubt it and consequently play right into the hands of dangerous people like this man.
Presciscely danumdon. I have read several posts over the years on here where Labour supporters have called Tory voters idiots for voting for their preferred Party.
It is no different to the approach that bst is talking about in the USA.
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Just stop and think what DD and BR are saying here.
"Yes, of course Trump is a criminal and a would-be insurrectionist but its the fault of people on the Left that people on the Right adore him."
I'm not saying that whatsoever. Please do not represent me.
I'm querying the strategy the Left have adopted in trying to defeat Trump. Go do some digging into US polling if you doubt this needs questioning.
I'm not advocating meeting Trump or his die hard supporters half-way. Or anything like that
I'm advocating positive campaigning based on policy over negative campaigning based on personality.
I'm advocating treating people as intelligent sentient beings and appealing to them as such over telling them how stupid and wrong they are and thereby implying (to them) how inferior they are.
It's not hard to see why someone who thinks a large part of an electorate is "ignorant" and "collectively insane" would disagree with me on this.
Believing in democracy is about believing in the people and respecting the people. If you don't have the courage to do that and behave accordingly you've politically lost the battle.
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DD
Tell me how I'm supposed to interpret this other than how I did.
"Do you think they will get the message this time, i very much doubt it and consequently play right into the hands of dangerous people like this man."
You have a situation where 87% of Republican voters think Trump shouldn't be prosecuted for attempting to overthrow democracy.
How is the Left supposed to reach out to those people? Tell them "yes, we hear you and we respect your opinions and we will accommodate them in our policy on the protection of democracy"?
Pointless trying to tell the left anything as you always assume your right and everyone else is wrong, in effect every inch a reactionary cabal.
As they say, the definition of insanity is repeating a thing constantly and getting the same result, I'm betting they will do exactly the same again because they never learn.
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BR.
Tell me HOW you reach out to them! How do you reach out to people who don't believe in evolution or that Trump should be prosecuted.
What do you mean by "positive campaigning" to attract those people?
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DD
Tell me how I'm supposed to interpret this other than how I did.
"Do you think they will get the message this time, i very much doubt it and consequently play right into the hands of dangerous people like this man."
You have a situation where 87% of Republican voters think Trump shouldn't be prosecuted for attempting to overthrow democracy.
How is the Left supposed to reach out to those people? Tell them "yes, we hear you and we respect your opinions and we will accommodate them in our policy on the protection of democracy"?
Pointless trying to tell the left anything as you always assume your right and everyone else is wrong, in effect every inch a reactionary cabal.
As they say, the definition of insanity is repeating a thing constantly and getting the same result, I'm betting they will do exactly the same again because they never learn.
DD.
Then tell me how I misunderstood you.
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Billy
"You don't defeat ignorance and collective insanity by meeting it halfway."
"At best, it's going to be a 50 year job to drain the infection out of the right of American politics. Let demographics do the job as the population becomes more urban, less white and more educated."
You clearly think millions of people in the US are irredeemably stupid, ignorant and insane based on where they are from, their level of education and the colour of their skin.
Excuse me if I don't waste my time getting involved in a detailed policy debate with someone who is: -
a) clearly steadfast and unmovable in his convictions; and
b) holds such abhorrent and despicable views on the people in question (essentially because they don't vote in democratic elections the way you would want them to).
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Branton.
I don't grab these opinions out of nowhere. I look at the evidence.
Only 34% of Republican voters believe in evolution over Genesis.
As I keep saying, 87% think that Trump shouldn't be prosecuted for his coup attempt.
A massive majority believe the US economy is going backwards when every metric says it is in roaring form, and the proceeds of growth are going to the very people who make up the Republican base.
I keep asking. How are you supposed to engage with them? That's what you are saying the Left needs to do. Tell me how.
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BR.
Tell me HOW you reach out to them! How do you reach out to people who don't believe in evolution or that Trump should be prosecuted.
What do you mean by "positive campaigning" to attract those people?
BST, you're getting things wrong here by sounding off on old chestnuts and soundbites. Like lots of people, you either have never read Genesis properly, or have and not understood it, otherwise you'd know that an evolutionary process is made evident. Especially the concept that all animate life began in the sea. All this written down 2000 years before Darwin was even born.
All modern theologists believe in evolution, they just don't believe it was an accident. You're not doing 40% of Americans justice by regarding them as a load of thickos. Also, as staunch Catholics, what do you think Biden and Pelosi make of the Book of Genesis?
I have to say, a lot of this insulting reminds me of the Brexit vote and the 2019 GE, and we all saw the consequences of that.
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Faith/religion is very flexible apparently SS
''10 times Nancy Pelosi supported abortion while citing her Catholic faith''
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251310/10-times-nancy-pelosi-supported-abortion-while-citing-her-catholic-faith
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Yes Labour are getting elected next year due to Tory hari kari. The Democrats may win next year as well.
But this discussion perfectly explains the travails of the Left in the UK and US over recent years.
The potential Left vote is split between Graduate Metropolitans and people of Working Class backgrounds.
The 2 factions have some different priorities (climate v cost) and some different views on social matters.
The Metropolitans dominate the Left's leadership. Where there is a clash of views the Metropolitans therefore always hold sway.
The Right (Trump) take advantage of this split my appealing to Working Class voters on social issues etc.
When the working poor vote for e.g. Trump the Metropolitans call him and them out as stupid. Driving these voters further away.
The correct response is not to accommodate Right-wing policy but to look to draw the 2 potential Left wing factions together through policy compromise and focussing campaigning on the policies that unite them.
But the Graduate Metropolitans don't do this. It's far easier (and lazier) to attack those that disagree with them as stupid.
At the heart of this error is prejudice against people they see as being less well educated, less diverse and from somehow 'lesser' areas be that the US rural South or Northern England.
A prejudice that Billy here, who despite his probable background has hung his hat firmly on the Metropolitan peg, provides an absolutely perfect example of.
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Let me get this right.
1) There's a group of voters who aren't stupid in the way they vote.
2) That same group of voters vote how they do because of what other people think of them. Which is a really stupid thing to do.
Both those points can't be true at once.
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Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.
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Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.
'Twas ever thus Sydney.
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Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.
'Twas ever thus Sydney.
So why would one vote to give them power?
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Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.
'Twas ever thus Sydney.
So why would one vote to give them power?
I don’t think it is the working class (whatever they are these days) who Labour voters call idiots for voting Tory.
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Let me get this right. deliberately wrong in order to undermine an argument counter to my own
1) There's a group of voters who aren't stupid in the way they vote.
2) That same group of voters vote how they do because of what other people think of them. Which is a really stupid thing to do.
Both those points can't be true at once.
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Branton, don't forget that johnson and many in the tory party view labour working people as thickies and we have it in writing.
'Twas ever thus Sydney.
So why would one vote to give them power?
Been a while Sydney. "One" - is that where you've been on elocution lessons? ;)
Tory class prejudice against the working class is a long held tradition - at least in the UK.
The Metropolitan Left's prejudice against (their natural ally) working class voters is a relatively new phenomenon which is damaging the Left's chances of election through how it instructs its campaigning strategies.
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My view to get what you want is that you should get labour into power then change party policy to change the voting system. When the voting system is changed pressure can be applied in the knowledge that a vote for a left party won't necessarily let the tories in again.
Back to the topic?
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Let me get this right. deliberately wrong in order to undermine an argument counter to my own
1) There's a group of voters who aren't stupid in the way they vote.
2) That same group of voters vote how they do because of what other people think of them. Which is a really stupid thing to do.
Both those points can't be true at once.
Well could you explain what you meant by this then?
"When the working poor vote for e.g. Trump the Metropolitans call him and them out as stupid. Driving these voters further away."
By the way, remember that we are talking about how the situation has become so poisonous in America. I stand 100% behind that assessment. For all the reasons of fact that I've given, and many more.
Here in the UK, the situation is nowhere near as bad, as Starmer has proved by drawing back the Red Wallers into the fold while not losing most of the metropolitan Left.
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Well could you explain what you meant by this then?
"When the working poor vote for e.g. Trump the Metropolitans call him and them out as stupid. Driving these voters further away."
Surely it's blindingly obvious?!
If you tell people they are stupid, have allowed themselves to be conned, that they're collectively insane, that they're ignorant, imply that they're racists....
...why on Earth would you expect them to vote alongside you in the future?!
I have 1st hand experience of this. Having voted Labour all my life I voted against the Labour line in a "referendum that shan't be named" some 7 years ago.
I suffered some pretty vile personal abuse and insults on social media and a general refusal of people to even hear out, let alone respect, my viewpoint. Plus 2-3 years of similar from Left commentators in general terms on people who had voted the same way.
Let's just say that after this come the 2019 GE I wasn't in the mood to link arms with my abusers and sing the Red Flag let alone vote with them.
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Like I was saying.
1) Folk are clever enough to make rational decisions in their own best interests.
2) Folk are so sensitive that they'll make decisions that aren't in their best interest if someone calls them a name.
Can't be both.
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Again you're misrepresenting my viewpoint (I suspect deliberately). Read my first post again.
"People are not stupid.
People are certainly not irredeemably stupid.
People can be persuaded to think stupidly and make stupid decisions."
Equally people can be persuaded to make rational decisions in their own best interests.
How about the Left try that approach rather than the failed current approach of calling people out as idiots??
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Branton
We were talking about America. I'll come back to Britain later.
I've asked over and again. What is the Left supposed to do to attract people who voted for Trump in 2016, saw him attempt a coup in 2020 and still plan to vote for him in 2024?
How do you "reach out" to them?
How do reach out to a group, 77% of which think the economy is going to hell and 95% of which think Biden has the wrong policy on Ukraine? (Poll last week).
Tell me how you reach out to them? Say "Meh, yeah, coups and fascist aggression are not that bad. We'll meet you half way."?
They were f**king idiots to vote for him in 16. Is it wrong to label them as f**king idiots for doubling down now?
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''Tory class prejudice against the working class is a long held tradition - at least in the UK''
and this is the bit I don't understand, why would anyone from the left trust them to make decisions for them in their interest?
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I wonder how much Trump will make from all the MAGA promo stuff with his smugshot on it?
That might give an idea of the stupidity of his supporters
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''Tory class prejudice against the working class is a long held tradition - at least in the UK''
and this is the bit I don't understand, why would anyone from the left trust them to make decisions for them in their interest?
Because they think they are 'getting one over on the metropolitan elite' (see above posts).
By voting for the metropolitan elite (see right-wing politicans everywhere).
That is the measure of success for right-wing politicans and parties in this century. Multi-millionaires and billionaires like Trump, Putin, Johnson, Sunak, have convinced a large proportion of the working class that they have their best interests at heart and all their problems are down to the 'metropolitan elite'. When these politicans are the very essence of the metropolitan elite.
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''Tory class prejudice against the working class is a long held tradition - at least in the UK''
and this is the bit I don't understand, why would anyone from the left trust them to make decisions for them in their interest?
Because they think they are 'getting one over on the metropolitan elite' (see above posts).
By voting for the metropolitan elite (see right-wing politicans everywhere).
That is the measure of success for right-wing politicans and parties in this century. Multi-millionaires and billionaires like Trump, Putin, Johnson, Sunak, have convinced a large proportion of the working class that they have their best interests at heart and all their problems are down to the 'metropolitan elite'. When these politicans are the very essence of the metropolitan elite.
sweet
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Like I was saying. How do you reach out to this?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66632882
If people are actively supporting a career liar, criminal and insurrectionist, you don't try to understand them. You beat them and neutralise their poison.
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I wonder how much Trump will make from all the MAGA promo stuff with his smugshot on it?
That might give an idea of the stupidity of his supporters
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66632882
Awesome ! Where can I buy a t shirt ?
Owt to wind up a few lefty snowflakes :lol:
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Yeah. There's nothing that winds up lefty snowflakes more than people announcing that they are bell ends.
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Billy
I'm advocating positive campaigning on how the Democrat's policies can improve people's lives (esp poor people).
To defeat Trump in a 2 party system they have to persuade people who have voted Trump in the past or are considering doing so to vote for them. You have to reach out to them. There's no other choice.
For the 2nd time I'm not advocating meeting Trump's policies halfway - please stop misrepresenting me it doesn't help the debate. Neither am I suggesting reaching out to Trump's die hard, T-shirt buying supporters. But to ordinary folk who are swing voters.
Trump is the most effective populist campaigner in world history - partly due to use of modern technology. He thrives on division and divisiveness. His strategy is divide and rule. He positively encourages Left commentators/politicians to call him/his supporters stupid by triggering them by making mad/controversial outbursts.
Calling people out as "f**king idiots" may help salve your anger (and I'm not disputing it's accuracy btw) but it plays into Trump's hands and is counterproductive. Trump thrives off of such diatribe. He thrives on divisiveness and there's nothing more divisive than calling people out as "f**cking idiots".
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Yeah. There's nothing that winds up lefty snowflakes more than people announcing that they are bell ends.
:lol:
Easy meat
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American politics are so messed up. It is far from being a democracy. I despise Trump, but the deceipt and puppetry is the main course on both sides.
What happened a few times recently with Mitch McConnell is an extreme example, but so many of these people are at best close to the edge of reason. And these people are the figureheads or puppets behind an inching very closely to a nuke apocalypse.