Scottish Independence

[IC1967]

By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them

You've lost me a bit there. Look, its very simple. Edward was king of England. You don't get much more English than that no matter what your parentage was. He was an evil man and wreaked untold horrors on the Scotch in the name of the English. Unfortunately for the English the Scotch know their history and still haven't forgiven his actions in the name of England.

[Filo]

By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them

You've lost me a bit there. Look, its very simple. Edward was king of England. You don't get much more English than that no matter what your parentage was. He was an evil man and wreaked untold horrors on the Scotch in the name of the English. Unfortunately for the English the Scotch know their history and still haven't forgiven his actions in the name of England.

Henry II
Stephen
William II
William I


Were all kings of England, born in France, how English are they? All ancestors of Edward I, just like your Irish ancestry in your world gives you the right to renownce your Englishness, Edward I ancestry gives true Englishmen the right to renownce his Englishness

And another point while we're at it Mick, in this very thread you state you won't visit places that hate the English, but then go on to say that you don't consider yourself English, your a strange lad Mick. I take it you've never visited your ancestrial home in Ireland, they must hate the English due to the potatoe famine

[RedJ]

If you're going to try and be a wind up merchant at least get your story straight.

It's all a bit tragic how much effort you're going to to troll a football forum...

[Wild Rover]

By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them

You've lost me a bit there. Look, its very simple. Edward was king of England. You don't get much more English than that no matter what your parentage was. He was an evil man and wreaked untold horrors on the Scotch in the name of the English. Unfortunately for the English the Scotch know their history and still haven't forgiven his actions in the name of England.

Scotch is an alchoholic drink. Scots is a person with lineage to the Scot tribe from Ireland.

[IC1967]

Scotch is an alchoholic drink. Scots is a person with lineage to the Scot tribe from Ireland.

Gotcha. You need to read my previous posts more carefully.

[wilts rover]

By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them

You've lost me a bit there. Look, its very simple. Edward was king of England. You don't get much more English than that no matter what your parentage was. He was an evil man and wreaked untold horrors on the Scotch in the name of the English. Unfortunately for the English the Scotch know their history and still haven't forgiven his actions in the name of England.

If Edward I could not speak English - was he an English King or a King of England?

[wilts rover]

Just for you Wilts as you seem to be in denial as to why the Scotch hate the English is a brief history from the 13th century.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/articles/the_wars_of_independence/

Yes good read Mick. Would you mind bringing it up to date by giving me a brief history of the Union of the Crowns in 1606, the War of Three Kingdoms in 1641 and the Act of Union in 1707 to show the continued antagonism and hatred between Scotch and Anglo-Saxons. Ta.

Here's a link to the Scotish Curriculum to help you on your way
www.educationscotland.gov.uk%2FImages%2FTheTreatyofUnionTheCourse(H)_tcm4-569917.doc

[BillyStubbsTears]

Chuck in the Darien escapade and Robbie Burns's excoriating poem on the Act of Settlement an all if you're talking about Scottish chips on shoulders and grudges.

[wilts rover]

Exactly the opposite Billy, if Mick does his research properly he will see that for a century the Scots were aiming for greater union with England - a position many have maintained since - and in total opposition to his claims, rather than being hated enimies they were actually the best of friends.

If he also does his research properly he will also find that much of the internal conflict in his 'native land' was started by people of Scots descent - not English. And it has continued between the Scots and Irish in both of those countries today - not the English.

[Filo]

Exactly the opposite Billy, if Mick does his research properly he will see that for a century the Scots were aiming for greater union with England - a position many have maintained since - and in total opposition to his claims, rather than being hated enimies they were actually the best of friends.

If he also does his research properly he will also find that much of the internal conflict in his 'native land' was started by people of Scots descent - not English. And it has continued between the Scots and Irish in both of those countries today - not the English.

Also Wilts, if Mick actually reads his link he'll see that the Scottish barons actually asked Edward to interfere in their affairs by choosing between Robert Bruce and John Baliol to be the King of Scotland, it's when the Barons turned on Edward by forming an alliance with France that things got nasty

[IC1967]

Look all this history malarkey is diverting attention from my main point. The Scotch hate the English. This is incontrovertible fact. I don't care what the reasons are. Those of you that can't handle this fact need to harden the f**k up and just accept that this is the situation.

[RedJ]

You're like a kid banging his head against the wall over and over because his parents won't let him have his own way.

[Filo]

Look all this history malarkey is diverting attention from my main point. The Scotch hate the English. This is incontrovertible fact. I don't care what the reasons are. Those of you that can't handle this fact need to harden the f**k up and just accept that this is the situation.

Mick, you brought History and Ancestry into the thread, it was the reasons you cited for the Scots hating the English. Now you are saying you don't care what the reasons are, why cite them in the first place if you don't care about them?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

I meant that Burns's poem is a bit of propaganda used by some Scots to castigate their lily-liveried Anglophile forebears who (as Burns and some of the more rabid Nats would have it) sold their birthright to the devious English.

In fact, Scotland was bankrupted by their farcically incompetent attempt to get a slice of the slave trade and colonial action by setting up a settlement Central America. Pretty much everyone with any money in Scotland invested in the scheme and they lost every penny they had put up. The result was catastrophic for the Scottish economy and led directly to their being bailed out by England and to the Acts of Union.

Burns called the Scots' leaders who had taken the English money "a parcel of rogues" who had been "bought and sold for English gold". That poem still works on slack-arsed sentimental Scottish heart strings today and the SNP never miss a trick at playing that card. The nasty windbag Salmond regularly invokes it.

http://www.snp.org/blog/post/2011/oct/alex-salmond-scotland-will-join-family-nations

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2004/feb/tory-parcel-o-rogues-arbroath-spent-decades-selling-out-scotlands-fishing

http://www.glasgowsnp.org/News/SNP_News/Salmond_addresses_Bridgeton_Burns_Club:_%22It's_gude_to_support_Caledonia's_Cause%22/


Funny how the Nats love to big up how proud Scotland was betrayed, but never talk about the context of why this came about.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, it's from the same political stable as the way in which the Nazis pushed the belief that in 1918, Germany lost because of weak leaders and self-serving Jews, not because her brave sons were overwhelmed in battle.

It is self-serving lies and bigotry dressed up as patriotism. Fortunately, it doesn't grab enough Scots to make a Yes vote in September even remotely likely.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick.  I asked before whether you had met "The Scots". That was another question that you declined to answer. I'm running out of fingers now Mick.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

Leave the lad alone. It's what he does. He makes an argument, sees it systematically taken apart, then says that the evidence doesn't matter but he's right anyway.

Remember that time when he told us that because our national debt had reached the same level as Weimar Germany, we were going to suffer hyper inflation. (or was it deflation, I forget now cos he changed his mind overnight). When it was pointed out to him that the numbers he'd copied from Money Week were £6trillion out, he waffled for a bit, Googled a few other rightingnutter.com sites that agreed with him, then finally accepted that the numbers were wrong. But still insisted that the outcome would be the same anyway.

Can't argue with a man who starts of with a conclusion and filters out any evidence that disputes the conclusion. It's how religious zealots operate.

[Filo]

I'm not sure he actually reads the whole links that he posts for us, he'd find that often they contradict what he says

[IC1967]

Look it's very simple. I am always right. I don't know why you don't all realise it by now. I do you the courtesy of providing the facts to back up my point of view. Surely by now you should all be prepared to just accept what I say is fact. I should not need to provide evidence. I have more than proved myself.

By the way Billy you have again referred to me as lad. This makes you sound very old. I believe I have mentioned this before.

[RedJ]

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick. Gotcha!

I know you're not young. Trust me. I know what I'm talking about. You just make me feel as weary as Methuselah every time I interact with you v

[Rios]

Calling all honest Scotchmen. Can just one of you come on here and tell the doubting Englishmen just how much your fellow countrymen hate the English as there are a lot of deluded naive folk on this forum.

Sorry I'm late to this particular petty argument...

As a Scot who has lived in England since I was five but has the majority of family living in Scotland I think I feel qualified to answer.  Both sides of the argument are sort of right.  I certainly don't hate the English, as I suspect is the same for the people who you work with, etc and who either have English friends and/or live in England.  I will support anyone that plays England at football, but that's no different to me hoping Rovrum or Scunny get beat every week.

However back home I have a lot of Aunts, Uncles and Cousins on my fathers side who detest the English and they stopped talking to my Dad for years due to his decision to move us to England.  There is a section of Scottish society who hate the English and if you don't believe me I'd try walking round Glasgow on a Saturday night in an England top and see how long it takes somebody to start.

It is correct in that history being taught in English schools doesn't encompass just how brutal some of the history of this island was and why their is a legacy of anti-english feeling.

[Filo]

Calling all honest Scotchmen. Can just one of you come on here and tell the doubting Englishmen just how much your fellow countrymen hate the English as there are a lot of deluded naive folk on this forum.

Sorry I'm late to this particular petty argument...

As a Scot who has lived in England since I was five but has the majority of family living in Scotland I think I feel qualified to answer.  Both sides of the argument are sort of right.  I certainly don't hate the English, as I suspect is the same for the people who you work with, etc and who either have English friends and/or live in England.  I will support anyone that plays England at football, but that's no different to me hoping Rovrum or Scunny get beat every week.

However back home I have a lot of Aunts, Uncles and Cousins on my fathers side who detest the English and they stopped talking to my Dad for years due to his decision to move us to England.  There is a section of Scottish society who hate the English and if you don't believe me I'd try walking round Glasgow on a Saturday night in an England top and see how long it takes somebody to start.

It is correct in that history being taught in English schools doesn't encompass just how brutal some of the history of this island was and why their is a legacy of anti-english feeling.

Your post demonstrates the bigotry that still exists in Scotland today, especially in places like Glasgow 

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The Scottish mantra of 'friendliest place in the world' does always make me laugh, some just detest anything English.  But then it's something that's deap in Scottish society, they have a hate of things much more than we do down here.  The Celtic-Rangers aspect tells you that.

I once got booed in an athletics meet up in Scotland, that was nice at 12 years old.  Booing the 12 year old guy born in England was a bit bizzare.  Mind, I'd have taken just beein booed at school, it was much, much worse.

[BigColSutherland]

Never mind the Scots vs the English. Look what the Germans have done to the Scots...

[Filo]

Never mind the Scots vs the English. Look what the Germans have done to the Scots...

That is reason enough for the Sots to hate the Germans over any other nationality by a landslide

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

The Sots?

They're not ALL ale carts and whisky swiggers tha knows.

[Filo]

Filo

The Sots?

They're not ALL ale carts and whisky swiggers tha knows.

If some one can get away with Scotch,I can get away with Sots

[IC1967]

There you have it. Rios and BFYP have provided conclusive evidence that what I was saying is bang on. Please be advised that any apologies will be immediately accepted and there will be no hard feelings.

[RedJ]

There you have it. Rios and BFYP have provided conclusive evidence that what I was saying is bang on. Please be advised that any apologies will be immediately accepted and there will be no hard feelings.

But you're saying ALL Scots hate us...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

I'll ask you again with no more hope of a cogent reply than ever: have you ever met "The Scots"?