Do you trust the police?

[Filo]

The miners started it!!!

What did the miners start Mick?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Where's your evidence Mick?

Remember, you can't use the police' word as they admitted that they'd made up the evidence.

[IC1967]

Wikipedia clearly states that the miners started it by trying to break the police lines and by lobbing bricks at our boys in blue. The police finished it. Quite understandably.

[wilts rover]

Using a precedence from a previous topic over the use of historical fiction in film to judge history, have you not seen Billy Elliott? The police started it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Was Wikipedia there at Orgreave Mick? Whereabouts was he stood?

[IC1967]

The miners started it!!!!

[donnyproletarian]

I suppose the liverpool fans stared hilsbrough as well

[IC1967]

I suppose the liverpool fans stared hilsbrough as well

No they didn't!!!! You obviously know nothing of what happened at Hillsborough if you think that.

[RedJ]

The miners started it!!!!

We appear to have reached the "if I scream it loud enough and often enough people will go away" stage.

[IC1967]

More evidence in the Miners Strike special in the Free Press. Battle of Orgreave: 5000 miners fight riot police. Protestors bombard police with bricks and stones. Game set and match.

[RedJ]

Nobody's saying that the miners weren't fighting the police though... not once has anybody disputed that.

But then, it isn't exactly unusual for you to move the goalposts really.

[IC1967]

None of you lefties are saying the miners did anything wrong. When I point it out that they did you all get your knickers in a twist. You only want the police to be held accountable. Typical lefties.

[RedJ]

But nobody's denying that they did anything wrong...

But then let's skirt around the points that actually were raised because it suits you.

[IC1967]

So why is it just the police in the firing line?

[RedJ]

Because they were shown to have fabricated statements? and because the thread is about whether or not we trust the police?...

f**king hell it's not rocket science.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

93 miners WERE held accountable. In the courts.

The cases collapsed because the police fabricated evidence.

No-one is asking for the police who went over the top in stoving in miners' heads to be prosecuted. That's byegones. But to ignore a criminal conspiracy by the police on this scale is scandalous. If we want to have confidence in the police, we need to know that criminality on this scale within the upper echelons of the police will not be accepted.

It'll come. I guarantee you that the truth will out sometime in the next 5 years. For one simple reason. The attitude that the SY Police displayed to truth at Orgreave led directly to the the way they dealt with the aftermath at Hillsborough. Lies. Fabricated evidence. Statements amended to fit the narrative that the senior coppers wanted. Intimidation of witnesses. Briefing of friendly politicians and media movers to propagate the lies.

Everything that happened at Hillsborough had already happened at Orgreave. But the cat is out of the bag regarding Hillsborough. SY Police are being slowly and systematically held to account for what they did there. And when the case is concluded, the question will be: why did that police force have the arrogance to behave like they did at Hillsborough? And the answer will be: because they'd already done it and at Orgreave.

[IC1967]

It is common knowledge that the management of the  South Yorkshire police force has been very poor for many years. Other police forces have a low opinion of them. I have a low opinion of them. However this does not mean I have a low opinion of the police officers that make up the force. It is the management that is at fault.

The mistake you lefties make is that you tar all police officers in the country with the same brush. This is patently absurd.

In conclusion I'll say it one more time regarding  Orgreave.  The miners started it!!!  If I'd been a bobby that day I'd have battered a few miners to stop them throwing bricks and stones at my mates. 

[wilts rover]

Mick, who do think manages(ed) South Yorkshire Police? I shall tell you, its senior police officers. So in essence from your paragraph above it has taken you seven pages, more rubbish than you will find in town on a Saturday night and enough tangenets for an advanced maths lesson to agree with the OP.

At certain times and in certain instances some members higher eschelons of several police forces have been found to be corrupt.

[IC1967]

I most certainly do not agree with the OP. I do trust the police. Just because senior management in some forces have occasionally been found wanting does not mean the whole police force is corrupt as yoy lefties would want people to believe.

Throughout this thread I have always said that some of the police were at fault at Orgreave. I have been objective and apportioned blame to both sides as appropriate. However even though the miners started it, all you lefties can do is bang on about how corrupt the police force was and give the impression that this corruption is endemic in the whole force to this day and that no progress has been made.

Once again. The miners started it!!!

[Filo]

The Miners started what?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

I assume he means the criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. That was what I've been talking about all through this thread anyroad.

Mind, I fully accept that I'm on dodgy ground applying simple logic to the job of figuring out what the flying f**k Mick is wittering on about.

[IC1967]

I do despair. The miners started it is a very easy concept to understand. Just for clarity I'm talking about Orgreave (as if you couldn't have worked that out for yourselves). The miners decided to picket. They brought thousands ( a bit over the top if you don't mind me saying) which was a clear sign of provocation.

However my main reason for stating that they started everything that subsequently happened after that day (including the police cover up) is that the miners tried repeatedly to break the police lines. They repeatedly threw missiles at the police.

If they hadn't done this, the police would not have felt the need for a cover up. So once again I repeat. The miners started it!!!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Personally, I blame the Triassic rain forests.

[IC1967]

Personally, I blame the Triassic rain forests.

Game set and match to me I think. You really must try and do better.

[IDM]

I most certainly do not agree with the OP. I do trust the police.

But not enough that you would rather take vigilante action in a REAL circumstance of alleged emotional abuse to a child, than let the police do their job?

f**king hypocrite.

[IDM]

Game set and match to me I think.

I think not, clown.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just following your train on logic Mick

The most famous British historian of the 20th century used a similar argument to belittle idiots who try to obscure wrongdoing in the same way that you have done. He said: "Every road accident is caused, in the last resort, by the invention of the internal combustion engine. But our courts don't accept that argument. They look for the immediate cause. Driver error. Drunkeness. Mechanical fault."

He had the measure of dissembling fools. You don't excuse a crime by stating that something else came first. A crime is a crime and someone that commits a crime should be judged by the immediate and particular, not the general.

Otherwise, if we follow your logic, where does the chain of blame stop? For me, it goes right back to the Triassic rain forests. Without them, there would have been no coal, no mines, no miners, no coking plant, no Scargill, no MacGregor, no strike, no picket, no arrests and no police conspiracy.

Easy argument isn't it?

[Filo]

I do despair. The miners started it is a very easy concept to understand. Just for clarity I'm talking about Orgreave (as if you couldn't have worked that out for yourselves). The miners decided to picket. They brought thousands ( a bit over the top if you don't mind me saying) which was a clear sign of provocation.

However my main reason for stating that they started everything that subsequently happened after that day (including the police cover up) is that the miners tried repeatedly to break the police lines. They repeatedly threw missiles at the police.

If they hadn't done this, the police would not have felt the need for a cover up. So once again I repeat. The miners started it!!!

You haven't got a f**king clue!

The large numbers of pickets were picketing peacefully, until the thousands of police, (a bit over the top if you ask me) decided to baton charge and cavalry charge the peaceful picket, beating anyone in their way, the provocation was totally instigated by the Police, the pickets were acting initially in self defence against a totally unwarranted and over the top attack, designed and manipulated by the Police and the media into fooling the gullible like yourself into believing that everything was the pickets fault

[IC1967]

I'm not obscuring wrongdoing. I've already (repeatedly) said the police were at fault. You blame the police 100%. I don't. The miners started it!!!

[BillyStubbsTears]

The rainforest started it!